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Matt_Cohn

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How will Winged Foot be any better?
« on: August 09, 2020, 11:42:40 PM »
Clearly, WF is a “better” course than Harding Park. But after today, is there any way that WF’s greatness would possibly make for a better major than what we saw the last four days? Was anything, *anything* at all lacking from a major at a course that nobody ranks in the Top 100?

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2020, 07:25:15 AM »
Clearly, WF is a “better” course than Harding Park. But after today, is there any way that WF’s greatness would possibly make for a better major than what we saw the last four days? Was anything, *anything* at all lacking from a major at a course that nobody ranks in the Top 100?


Yes, two things:


Ample sand in the bunkers


Interest in watching in for the first three rounds.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2020, 08:13:54 AM »
I truly do not think there is an ounce of correlation between the quality of the golf course and the televised entertainment it creates.


We have plenty of examples both ways.


Harding Park looked like a tremendous course to me, yet the few people that I spoke to this weekend that played it would not look to go back.


Steve’s point about interest in the first three days holds for me as I’ve played WFW a couple times...not sure why, but this always piques my interest a little more.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2020, 08:26:53 AM »
Winged Foot has historical perspective that improves the viewing experience. Torrey Pines has the same thing. Harding Park will have it next time.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2020, 08:42:36 AM »
I liked the firm bunkers. Most adjusted very well.

Sean_A

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Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2020, 09:34:29 AM »
I truly do not think there is an ounce of correlation between the quality of the golf course and the televised entertainment it creates.

We have plenty of examples both ways.

Harding Park looked like a tremendous course to me, yet the few people that I spoke to this weekend that played it would not look to go back.

Steve’s point about interest in the first three days holds for me as I’ve played WFW a couple times...not sure why, but this always piques my interest a little more.

Generally I think you are right, but there are exceptions.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Eric LeFante

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2020, 09:42:11 AM »
The final rounds of the 1974, 1984, 2006 US Opens are on the USGA's streaming app. I watched them and even though I love WF, I don't think they were that great to watch. The US Open should be the toughest test in golf but it just doesn't seem like the back nine is very exciting. Many people think the best hole on that property is 13 East and that hole would really add a lot to the back nine on West. Narrow fairways, no water hazards by greens, no reachable par 5s, no strategic choices off the tee, and no short par 3s is a recipe for high scores, not back nine excitement like The Masters. 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 09:45:58 AM by Eric LeFante »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2020, 09:46:12 AM »
So bad architecture is more fun? Got to say that the worse they make ANGC the more fun it is to watch.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2020, 10:06:49 AM »
So bad architecture is more fun? Got to say that the worse they make ANGC the more fun it is to watch.


Maybe there just isn't any correlation?


Say the tees are back on 16 yesterday, Morikawa can't reach the green, and he makes four to finish -11.  And he winds up in a three way playoff with Casey (who didn't hit a lot of memorable shots) and DJ (who probably wouldn't have made the putt on 18 if he had to get into a playoff, but he did also finish -11).  Does the same tournament go down as a classic then?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2020, 10:11:33 AM »
The Nicklaus course in Louisville provided one of the most exciting events ever.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2020, 10:28:41 AM »
So bad architecture is more fun? Got to say that the worse they make ANGC the more fun it is to watch.


Maybe there just isn't any correlation?


Say the tees are back on 16 yesterday, Morikawa can't reach the green, and he makes four to finish -11.  And he winds up in a three way playoff with Casey (who didn't hit a lot of memorable shots) and DJ (who probably wouldn't have made the putt on 18 if he had to get into a playoff, but he did also finish -11).  Does the same tournament go down as a classic then?


I think it goes down as a classic because of the amount of players that were in contention on the back nine on Sunday.





Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2020, 10:34:23 AM »
So bad architecture is more fun? Got to say that the worse they make ANGC the more fun it is to watch.


Maybe there just isn't any correlation?


Say the tees are back on 16 yesterday, Morikawa can't reach the green, and he makes four to finish -11.  And he winds up in a three way playoff with Casey (who didn't hit a lot of memorable shots) and DJ (who probably wouldn't have made the putt on 18 if he had to get into a playoff, but he did also finish -11).  Does the same tournament go down as a classic then?


Dustin pitched in for eagle on 16. You're still giving him that in this thought exercise, but Morikawa can't even figure out how to make 3?


I gotta say, I never saw the "Tom Doak thinks drivable par 4s produce gimmicky-ass highlights and champions" angle coming.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2020, 10:58:10 AM »
The Nicklaus course in Louisville provided one of the most exciting events ever.


I agree.  I still think, to this day, that was the most exciting ending to a tournament I have ever seen.  Tigers last masters win or tour championship win are close too.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2020, 11:11:44 AM »

Harding Park proved to be a great venue for the pros and I am not surprised.  It was a long straightforward test of golf. The conditions were ideal, the hazards were unpredictable (bunkers, rough and trees), and it challenged the best players in the world. 

There are great tests of golf and there are great golf courses and sometimes there are both.  HP is a great test but trust me, if most here played it, few would rave about it. The trees are the key design feature that makes Harding Park special.  It is a 5-6 in my book and that is still a wonderful golf course but it is not one that truly inspires, one that when standing on each tee you say wow this is special.  I personally say wow about the trees but not many here like trees. 

Think of HP this way, Oakmont without trees is close to a 10 because of everything else going on with it.  The trees lessened (hid) the interest and outstanding aspects of that design.  Harding Park would be blah without the giant Cypress trees.  I love them but then as I have said many times, I love the variety of different playing fields

Winged Foot is an example of a great test of golf and a great golf course as well.  I am almost hesitant to say too much because while I have played it many times, I have not seen the recent work just completed by Gil. I am trusting he did a great job fixing the bunkers so like look more like Tillinghast and less like Fazio.  The greens themselves are simply world class (one of the best sets on the planet).  I don’t believe he touched them other than to tie in the renovated bunkering.  Trees play a huge role in the strategy of Winged Foot as they did at Harding Park but the WF green complexes are a totally different level.  Not that I really care, but you will not see 13 under winning the golf tournament.  But having said that, HP gave us a great tournament as it tested the best players in the world.  Some golf courses if long enough and with the right conditions can do that. 

One thing I really liked about HP that will likely not be found at WF and is never found at places like Augusta is the unpredictable nature of the rough and the bunkers.  The WF rough is likely to be uniform as will be the bunkers. Augusta is always perfect uniform conditions.  That unpredictable nature added interest to the PGA at HP. 

To answer the question, HP provided a great test of golf for the best players in the world. WF will be an even tougher test.  Many like to see the best players shine and struggle at the same time.  WF will do that but my guess is there will be much more struggle than we saw at the PGA.  There will not be 40-50 scores in the 60’s on Sunday like there was at HP that is for sure. If there are more than a handful in the 60’s I would be surprised. 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 11:13:44 AM by Mark_Fine »

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2020, 11:21:48 AM »
"I personally say wow about the trees but not many here like trees. "

We've got Firestone this week for Senior Players.  Old school cool! 

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2020, 12:33:59 PM »
So bad architecture is more fun? Got to say that the worse they make ANGC the more fun it is to watch.


Maybe there just isn't any correlation?


Say the tees are back on 16 yesterday, Morikawa can't reach the green, and he makes four to finish -11.  And he winds up in a three way playoff with Casey (who didn't hit a lot of memorable shots) and DJ (who probably wouldn't have made the putt on 18 if he had to get into a playoff, but he did also finish -11).  Does the same tournament go down as a classic then?


I think it goes down as a classic because of the amount of players that were in contention on the back nine on Sunday.
This. I was thinking, holy cow are we going to have 5-6 guys going into a three hole aggregate playoff? Remember the PGA officials said they wouldn't separate the group into two, they would play as ONE group.  When, if ever, has there ever been more than a foursome play in playoff of a major? 
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2020, 12:41:53 PM »
I watched all weekend, and agree the finish was quite satisfying.  Interesting how the accurate, control-type player emerged victorious, in a leaderboard filled with big hitters.  Paul Casey finished 2nd as well.  With that said, it was amazing how well the players drove the ball on Sunday.  They are so accurate and long off the tee.

I thought it was pretty boring to watch overall.  My two criticisms are:

1.  Visually, the course is monotonous, a bad venue in the modern age of TV entertainment.  Most big-time courses show much better on TV.  Pebble Beach, for example.  18 views of corridors of trees on flattish ground.  It also may be that the strange weather conditions contributed to a lack of color contrast.

2.  Greenside play lacked the excitement of a typical American venue.  The greens are pretty flat, and the putts and chips all rolled pretty straight.

I'm not sure I agree with Mark Fine about the inconsistent rough.  Maybe.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 04:49:46 PM by John Kirk »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2020, 12:52:56 PM »
It's harder to hit a running fade with a hybrid than with a driver. Taking the driver out of the hands of the uber long hitters on 16 was architectural genius. Once again showing the folly of making courses longer in defense of long hitters. It didn't work against Tiger and it won't work now.

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2020, 12:53:46 PM »

This. I was thinking, holy cow are we going to have 5-6 guys going into a three hole aggregate playoff? Remember the PGA officials said they wouldn't separate the group into two, they would play as ONE group.  When, if ever, has there ever been more than a foursome play in playoff of a major?


Never, that I can remember. But it was ridiculous that they split the four players into two groups for the playoff in the 2002 Open Championship.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2020, 12:59:28 PM »

This. I was thinking, holy cow are we going to have 5-6 guys going into a three hole aggregate playoff? Remember the PGA officials said they wouldn't separate the group into two, they would play as ONE group.  When, if ever, has there ever been more than a foursome play in playoff of a major?


Never, that I can remember. But it was ridiculous that they split the four players into two groups for the playoff in the 2002 Open Championship.
Twice in PGA Tour history have they had a 6 man sudden death playoff.
https://www.pga.com/archive/news/golf-buzz/which-pga-tour-event-most-players-in-sudden-death-playoff
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2020, 01:04:28 PM »
Never been more than 3 players in a playoff at any of golf's major championships.  Here is a nice recap.
https://www.pga.com/archive/news/golf-buzz/most-players-in-playoff-each-of-four-mens-major-championships
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jimmy Chandler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2020, 05:58:25 PM »
Never been more than 3 players in a playoff at any of golf's major championships.  Here is a nice recap.
https://www.pga.com/archive/news/golf-buzz/most-players-in-playoff-each-of-four-mens-major-championships
That article is wrong, as JLahrman noted, the 2002 Open held a 4-man playoff in two groups, won by Ernie Els in a sudden death playoff after the 4-hole playoff:
https://www.theopen.com/previous-opens/131st-open-muirfield-2002/

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2020, 06:12:16 PM »
So bad architecture is more fun? Got to say that the worse they make ANGC the more fun it is to watch.


Maybe there just isn't any correlation?


Say the tees are back on 16 yesterday, Morikawa can't reach the green, and he makes four to finish -11.  And he winds up in a three way playoff with Casey (who didn't hit a lot of memorable shots) and DJ (who probably wouldn't have made the putt on 18 if he had to get into a playoff, but he did also finish -11).  Does the same tournament go down as a classic then?


I think it goes down as a classic because of the amount of players that were in contention on the back nine on Sunday.


That and I think it's not really a stretch to think Morikawa might actually birdie a 340 yard 16th (given he could make eagle on a 294 yarder) and win it anyway


or something else dramatic happen in a playoff


or Morikawa makes it on 18 because he has to


As a television event, WF will have it's work cut ot to match the setting, images, conditions and drama we saw last week.
Most viewers have played neither course, and Harding Park shows well on TV.
Oh and of course there's the USGA factor(a sudden outbreak of perfect September weather could derail them...I mean the on site guy's been prepping for June :) for two years...
 June Hamptons weather sure does sneak up and befuddle them every 14 years...
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2020, 06:37:57 PM »
Count me in for someone who doesn't see the correlation between a great course and a great tournament.
I also don't believe that a better designed course will bring the cream to the top.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How will Winged Foot be any better?
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2020, 06:51:18 PM »
Count me in for someone who doesn't see the correlation between a great course and a great tournament.
I also don't believe that a better designed course will bring the cream to the top.


Completely agree,


Its more about how many players you have in your tourney, vs where you play it.   Augusta National limits it to the top 50 in the World rankings, and most tournament winners, which are usually in the top 50 anyways.  And surprise surprise, they usually have a compelling weekend.  ::)

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