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Peter Pratt

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Scottsdale Golf
« on: November 05, 2003, 02:50:36 PM »
Beside Talking Stick (North), what are the best public/resort courses in the Phoenix-Scottsdale area? How far is it from Scottsdale to Apache Stronghold in Globe?

Thanks!

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2003, 03:39:12 PM »

How about Talking Stick South?   ;D

It will take you approx. 90 minutes to 2 hours to get to Apache Stronghold depending on traffic and how fast you drive. Well worth the drive!

Some of my fav's are Wildfire (Faldo), Longbow, Las Sendas and the Whirlwind courses and best of all you won't have to mortgage you house to play any of them.

I've played most all of the well regarded public/resort courses and most of them are overrated and overpriced IMHO.



John Foley

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2003, 03:59:16 PM »
Craig,

What did you think of Kierland, Eagle Mountain and We-Ko-Pa and dare I say Legend Trail?

I may be there in a few weeks and looking at alternatives?

Thanks.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Bill_McBride

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2003, 04:03:58 PM »
I was there in January.  My recommendation:  TSN, TSS, Apache Stronghold x2.  I walked Apache and absolutely loved it.  Also walked TS, the natives were amazed!  Why would anybody walk when they could ride?

As far as I can tell, the rest is all cart ball.  I'm sure there is lots of other good stuff, but I've played Gainey Ranch, TPC of Scottsdale, Raptor, nothing impressed me like TSN and AS.

Lou_Duran

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2003, 04:09:58 PM »
John-

Try Desert Forest up in Carefree.  I think that your home pro can probably arrange it.  It is a classic/original desert course in a saguaro forest sans all the artificial features.  Beautiful country, cooler temperatures, and great wildlife early and late.  

DTaylor18

Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2003, 04:10:13 PM »
My favorite was Troon North - Monument.  I agree with the thoughts on Gainey Ranch, it was very uninteresting with housing encroaching on the holes.

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2003, 04:23:10 PM »

John,

Ah yes, the Scott Miller trifecta: Keirland, Eagle Mtn and We-Ko-Pa! I have played all three, nothing really compelling to go back to any of them. Of the three We-Ko-Pa is probably the best although that's not a recommedation. I don't remember anything about Keirland, I remember the housing at Eagle Mountain and I remember thinking We-Ko-Pa could have been so much better. How's that for help.  ;D  

I played Legend Trail twice, the first time I didn't like it but I gave it a second chance and still didn't like it. I remember it being a harsh and unforgiving desert course with few holes that really excite.




John Foley

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2003, 04:39:17 PM »
Scott,

WOW, didn't think they would all be that bad :)

It's amazing how much golf there is in Scottsdale and how liitle the treehouse gang thinks of it, besides Talking Stick.

Integrity in the moment of choice

George Pazin

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2003, 04:41:28 PM »
I didn't really care for Eagle Mountain either.

If you're coming from cold weather, be prepared for a bunch of stares if the weather dips to 70 degrees & you're still wearing shorts while the locals are wearing winter jackets. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2003, 05:09:05 PM »
The interesting aspect of Scottsdale is how dominant the private side / gated community golf is when compared to the daily fee sites.

You have the layouts at Desert Mountain (the Outlaw coming on board ASAP), Desert Highlands, Desert Forest, Whisper Rock (an absolute must play for those who can get access IMHO), Silverleaf, Mirabel, Southern Dunes (just south of Phoenix), Quintero (a new 18 I believe is coming), The Estancia Club (a good bit more than TF eye-candy), Troon, etc, etc.

I'm planning on returning to AS by early December and will be very interested to see how things are going there. I loved the layout the first time but the turf conditions have to be a bit better. We shall see ...

P.S. I also understand that there's been talk of more golf SW of Phoenix. Be interested to learn more from those in the know. Thanks ...

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2003, 08:39:38 PM »
Matt: There will be 3 new courses on the west side of PHX opening this winter. Raven at Verrado(Fought/Lehman)www.verrado.com- Trilogy at Vistancia(Panks) and CorteBella(Nash)www.cortebella.com
All are housing development courses so play there before the houses get built. Another course on the west side that is getting good reviews, although I haven't played there yet, is Estrella Mountain Ranch(Nicklaus II) I'll try them out in March during my annual visit with some friends who have memberships at Desert Highlands,Quintero and Mirabel. Steve
Here is an article from www.golfarizona.com:

West side story
takes off
in Phoenix golf
By Rebecca Larsen, Associate Editor

PHOENIX (Oct. 1, 2003) -- If you want to play the newest and best thing in daily-fee courses in the Valley of the Sun this winter, you'd better head west, far west.

Two of them, the Raven at Verrado and Trilogy at Vistancia, are set to open in a few months with green fees anticipated to be in the $120 to $130 range in the high season and $50 to $60 in summer.
As is often the case in the Phoenix area, these new places to play will be the centerpieces for giant housing developments. But both offer high-quality golf, a cut above the average subdivision course.
First to open in late January or early February will be the Raven at I-10 and Verrado Way in Buckeye, a town that is about 20 miles from downtown Phoenix. The par-71, 7,300- yard course is being designed by architect John Fought and PGA star Tom Lehman. Although it's billed as a desert-style course with a target flavor, the Raven at Verrado will have generous landing areas, says Ben Keilholtz, marketing manager for Intrawest, the firm developing the course and also managing it.
"It's going to be tough for golfers when they get around the putting surfaces," Keilholtz says. "The greens have a lot of undulations and there are challenging bunkers."
This new Raven winds up and down through the foothills of the White Tank Mountains where golfers can see the Phoenix skyline on clear days. Some 1,600 native trees were salvaged during building and are being replanted to give the course a lush feeling.
The course bears the signature brand of the "Raven," a logo that Intrawest, a Scottsdale firm, uses to label its premier offerings. There are six Ravens across the country; one other is in Phoenix - the Raven at South Mountain.
"It's possible that future courses could be built in the Verrado community, but for now, there's only the Raven," says Keilholtz.
Verrado itself is an 8,800-acre community with elevations of up to 3,600 feet. It's expected to have 14,000 homes at build-out with 2,000 popping up in the first phase. The master-plan developer is DMB of Scottsdale, also developer of DC Ranch in that town; Lehman makes his home at DC Ranch, by the way. DMB's goal is to make Verrado resemble an old-fashioned small town that will have a city center with housing, office, retail stores, schools and entertainment. For more on the development, check out verrado.com.
The other new course opening in February is Trilogy at Vistancia, also managed by Intrawest. This course, actually northwest of Phoenix, is located in Peoria and is being laid out by Gary Panks of Scottsdale, acclaimed for his designs at Whirlwind Golf Club on the Gila River Reservation and the Talon Course at Grayhawk in Scottsdale.
"This course has a very different style," says Keilholtz. "It's a links design with tall fescue lining the fairways. It's going to be 7,200 to 7,300 yards in length and will be very challenging."
Vistancia has a 7,100-acre site near the reservoir of Lake Pleasant and at buildout will have 17,000 homes. The first phase, Trilogy, will be a community of 2,500 homes for active adults and another 1,100 for families. The location, about 20 to 25 miles from downtown Phoenix, is roughly bordered by Carefree Highway, Jomax Road and 113th and 163rd avenues.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matt_Ward

Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2003, 06:46:19 PM »
acer2x:

Are the courses you mentioned for the SW section of Phoenix set to Open this December -- I will be in town and may need to see them? Any detailed info is much appreciated.

Thanks ...

A.G._Crockett

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2003, 06:58:02 PM »
This is a tough crowd, no doubt about it!  I thoroughly enjoyed the Pinnacle course at Troon North, the Monument course much less so, but it is still very good golf.  The two Greyhawk courses are fine also; its worth the trip there just to sit on the veranda and have a margarita out of a goblet the size of a range bucket and watch the sun go down.
Legend Trail I would stay away from, if only because it could be anywhere; in terms of "desert" golf, you get no sense of that.  LT is a just plain vanilla in an area with much more to offer.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2003, 07:04:14 PM »
Matt: According to the article, both Trilogy at Vistancia and Raven at Verrado will probably open for play later than your visit. According to my information, CorteBella( managed by Troon Golf) will open for play in January. Estrella Mountain Ranch has been open a few years.
Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

shanew

Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2003, 09:44:14 PM »
matt--

we just started overseeding @ corte bella and should be open right around the first of january.  fortunately, the valley had the hottest october in recorded history so it gave our bermuda more time to establish.  

Doug Wright

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2003, 12:50:21 AM »
Besides Talking Stick North, Talking Stick South is really  good. I'd eschewed it in favour of TSN many times time till earlier this year, and really enjoyed it. Classical lines, push up greens.  I was disappointed in the first Whirlwind course (Panks)--seemed bland except for the really good 8th-9th hole stretch, haven't played the new Whirlwind course. Greyhawk courses are quite good but too pricy for my taste. I also was disappointed in We-Ko-Pa, not as good as the hype, though some of the greensites were decent I thought the routing was bland on a very good piece of land. I like Dove Valley Ranch (RTJ Jr.) quite a bit. The greens are really good and the back nine winds through a barranca and pinon forest. Ugly finishing hole, though. I also like Sunridge Canyon (Keith Foster), which runs down and then up a canyon. The short par 4 10th and long par 4 11th holes are particularly good. And, if you can make the drive to Apache Stronghold it's well worth it IMO.

Best,
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Matt_Ward

Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2003, 12:52:06 PM »
redanman:

You doth protest tooo much on The Estancia. I see it as being one of TF's finer designs. There is more there than you suggest. The course is more than the excellent turf and fine views of Pinnacle Peak. I'm not saying it's in the same league as Whisper Rock and Desert Forest but it's a helluva lot more than you might think -- ole buddy! ;D

P.S. Bill -- just outline what holes are mutts in your mind. That would help poor people like me understand.

Doug:

The second layout at Whirlwind is a good deal better than the original. More challenging and more diverse holes. You need to play it next time in town.


George Pazin

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2003, 02:16:00 PM »
I played one of the Whirlwind courses - I think the first one - and it was one of the more playable desert courses I've played. I liked it a lot more than Eagle Mountain.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2003, 08:25:53 PM »

I've played both of the Whirlwind courses and there are some very good holes out there and because it is on the indian reservation the rules about 90 acres of irrigated turf don't apply so it is less target golf than most of the desert courses.

I think the Nationwide held a tourney at one of them recently.




Matt_Ward

Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2003, 02:01:32 PM »
redanman:

If you want to see one of Jack's finest works you can sure play Desert Highlands -- but skip over to Desert Mountain and play Chirichua -- it's a more modern version of what Jack should have been doing earlier in his career IMHO.

The Estancia is not in the same league as Whisper Rock
or Desert Forest -- I concede that. But, The
Estancia Club is more than just a postcard picture that hugs itself near Pinnacle Peak. The layout has enough diversity of holes to keep the average member happy and it does present enough muscle for the better player to return. If there's something specific you believed was deficient I'd really like to know. Remember -- I said it was one of TF's finest designs -- I wasn't saying it belongs with GlenWild and Dallas National -- the two finest TF designs I have played to date.

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2003, 10:47:48 PM »
I'll counter Craig E's post about Legend Trail, having helped bring this course into the world. Legend Trail is among the more classic of our desert courses. We strove for much the peaceful attributes of Desert Forest, albeit a much more harsh site.

While I do not feel Legend Trail is the best of the desert courses — I do hold it in high regard, and say so un-apologetically as one of its authors. I encourage golfers to play it when they come here as it offers some unique holes and a much different venue than the "standard" crap we've come to embrace here in the desert.

Troon CC is among my absolute favorites.

And, I'm very concerned that Papago Municipal has not been mentioned. Here is a grand Billy Bell Jr. course with a very interesting routing and a terrific setting. Conditions have been marginal...but only Matt Ward and his relatives would be bothered. Any serious architecture student owes it to themselves to visit Papago. Good luck getting a tee time. Go as a single.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2003, 10:31:16 AM »

Forrest,

      Glad to see your sticking up for your course. My playing partners, despite losing probably 30 golf balls, absolutely loved Legend Trail.

     I would have mentioned Papago but I have found it almost impossible to get on as an out of towner even as a single. The one time I managed to get on I still had to wait 2 hours. It seemed to be in as good as condition as one would expect for a course that gets 80000 - 100000 rounds per year. Well worth playing if you can get on.

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2003, 10:46:56 AM »
Unfortunately Papago has been let go by the City of Phoenix. This is likely to change thanks to one of our former mayors, John Driggs. John and I have some ideas to truly restore Papago. I use "restore" because that is what we intend to do — our office holding plans which were used to build the original. (Arthur Jack Snyder supervised construction for Billy Bell in the mid 1960s.)

Papago's jewells are:

No. 3 — par-4 with a canted fairway and a huge dip before the green

No. 5 — par-4 with a perched green and penal bunkers with high faced in front

No. 6 — par-4 over a ridge crossing the fairway; long drives will find a low area or possibly a small bump where a flip wedge will get home; it has become a lay-up tee shot for many

No. 12 — short par-4 up a slight incline to a reden-like green

No. 15 — a once "ball-buster" par-5 of 580-yards, now less so

No. 17 — a Biarritz of sorts: a par-3 playing over a ridge to a blind green surface; the entire green sitting within a dip/valley

No. 18 — par-4 dog-leg around a desert wash to a plateau green flanked by a deep bunker to the front/left

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2003, 01:31:42 PM »
Forrest: I remember reading an article about 2 years ago in the Arizona Republic by John Davis about the poor conditions at Papago. I emailed Davis about 6-9 months afterwards to see if there was any follow up. He never responded. Is he too timid to take on the city government or is it the Republic's policy not to be negative? Why isn't there more of a public outcry? Is the Southwest PGA or AGA taking a role in the proposed restoration? With all the publicity about munis being restored/renovated- Bethpage Black, Harding Park, Torrey Pines, Houston Memorial and the proposed work at Cobbs Creek here in Philly- I would think the golfing community in AZ would be on top of this issue.
Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Scottsdale Golf
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2003, 08:57:59 PM »
The Republic article was very negative and, I believe, tried to get the city motivated to make changes. It did result in some brief efforts, but nothing major.

This current push will be from the top. And it does not center around golf. The golf improvements will be a by-product of a much larger and regional concept which I am not at liberty to relate just yet. As far as the PGA or others, I am certain there will be requests for these types of groups to endorse the renovation.

As far as the "golfing community" in Arizona. I'm never certain there is one. It is fragmented at best.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com