Harding Park

[PCCraig]

How is the golf course for everyday play?


From the HD flyovers the Golf Channel is showing the course looks to be in a pretty spectacular setting?


Is there any William Watson left? Other than maybe (?) the routing?

[Matt_Cohn]

The course plays modestly. The greens aren't small and they're not especially sloped, and for everyday play they're not especially fast. The bunkers are not deep. They don't set very difficult hole locations for public play. You could get in some tree trouble; however, the corridors are decently wide, the rough is kept fairly short, and the fairways are normally at least 1/3 wider than what you'll see this week. Most people play the white tees at 6,405. And of course it's usually a par 72, not a par 70. I'm not saying it's an easy golf course day to day—it depends what you're comparing it to—but it's definitely not a hard one. It's nowhere near as tough for daily play as Olympic, for example.

[PCCraig]

The course plays modestly. The greens aren't small and they're not especially sloped, and for everyday play they're not especially fast. The bunkers are not deep. They don't set very difficult hole locations for public play. You could get in some tree trouble; however, the corridors are decently wide, the rough is kept fairly short, and the fairways are normally at least 1/3 wider than what you'll see this week. Most people play the white tees at 6,405. And of course it's usually a par 72, not a par 70. I'm not saying it's an easy golf course day to day—it depends what you're comparing it to—but it's definitely not a hard one. It's nowhere near as tough for daily play as Olympic, for example.

So, do you enjoy playing it? You make it seem pretty bland.

[David_Tepper]

As several of the players have noted in their press conferences over the past few days, Harding Park is one of those "fair," "it's all there in front of you" courses. Except for a few holes, the course is pretty flat, especially when compared to nearby SFGC, Lake Merced and both courses at Olympic.

The routing of the course is pretty good, as the back nine encircles the front nine (and the 9-hole Fleming course as well). After the first 3 holes, rarely do you play more than a very few holes going in the same direction.


The setting of the course and the tree-lined fairways do give it a sense of grandeur. But, yes, the course is a little on the bland side when compared to its neighbors.

[Matt_Cohn]

So, do you enjoy playing it? You make it seem pretty bland.

I do. It's nice. It's a beautiful setting. It's in consistently pretty good shape. I do find it to be pretty straightforward for daily play; with normal green speeds and hole locations, you don't have to think about a whole lot. I've played the previously existing back tees (~7100) a handful of times and the PGA tees (~7250) twice (wasn't supposed to be doing that). It's long as heck from back there and obviously very tough, but with the greens at normal speed it's still not complicated. I might have a 4-iron into a par 4, but I'm mostly just aiming at the pin and not concerned that I would have some impossible up and down if I miss on one side or the other.

Obviously that's different this week with fast greens, higher rough, and tough hole locations. There are a lot of pins close to edges for Round 1. It should be a good tournament setup, and the players will have to think before shooting at just about any pin on the course. But that would be the case literally anywhere if you make the greens 13, grow heavy greenside rough, and put all the pins 4 from the edge!

[Mark_Fine]

I didn't see much Watson left in the place when I played it and I don't think that was the intention anyway when it was redone.  I knew Sandy Tatum and what he helped make happen there was quite amazing.  That said, it is surprising how $17MM can be spent     I wish I had that kind of budget on my projects although I would have no idea how to spend it nor would I want to.  HP a good golf course and the improvement is dramatic from where it was but frankly it is not the greatest golf course.  It is in that Doak 5-6 range.  I realize there were other priorities but honestly the course had more potential than the end result.  You do need to make accommodations for public play but it is all about proper balance.  I will leave it at that.   

[archie_struthers]

 




I'm with Mark on this one?  Not having been to Harding Park and looking at pictures and video I'm baffled how they could spend 17M
on the Tatum renovation. Perhaps the clubhouse was a huge cost and perhaps someone could weigh in on that aspect of the redo.


It is California though!  Nothing is cheap

[Kalen Braley]

Its a pity they had to narrow the fairways so much to keep these guys from going super low.  18 looks especially odd with all that green grass and then the tiny little strip of fairway.

P.S.  Agreed its a fantastic setting overall with just a short walk over the hill/dune to the beach. 

[JLahrman]

It should be a good tournament setup, and the players will have to think before shooting at just about any pin on the course. But that would be the case literally anywhere if you make the greens 13, grow heavy greenside rough, and put all the pins 4 from the edge!

Yes and this is not making me particularly interested in watching the tournament. Seems like they could have had this tournament on a driving range instead and would get the same result. I've only played Harding Park once, it's a beautiful area and an enjoyable course to play, and it's certainly good to have an option available for SF city residents given the lack of affordable public golf in the area. But when Ian Poulter is putting up videos just to show how deep the rough is, it demonstrates that the layout itself isn't going to pose a big challenge for the pros.

[Kalen Braley]

Jlar,

I'm guessing without all the nasty rough and fairways, the winner would easily be south of -20 and obliterate scores of scoring records for Majors..

[Jeff Schley]

The fairway bunkers are shallow and don't have lips, but ramps to allow balls to bounce forward like a ramp without anything stopping them. Hole 10 particularly.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I'm with Mark on this one?  Not having been to Harding Park and looking at pictures and video I'm baffled how they could spend 17M
on the Tatum renovation. Perhaps the clubhouse was a huge cost and perhaps someone could weigh in on that aspect of the redo.


It is California though!  Nothing is cheap

Prevailing wage for all golf course labor, and yes, the clubhouse cost a fortune.

[David_Tepper]

Also don't forget the 9-hole Fleming course was part of the renovation budget.


Good article here on the history of PGA tournament golf at Harding:

https://apnews.com/3b2a8cd82c159297f48eccea1b4cf9fe

Interesting to note that 6 of the 7 winners of the old Lucky International tournament held at Harding in the 1960's are in the World Golf Hall of Fame. The 7th winner was Master champ George Archer. Tiger and Rory have won tournaments at Harding as well.

[Matt_Cohn]

The fairway bunkers are shallow and don't have lips, but ramps to allow balls to bounce forward like a ramp without anything stopping them. Hole 10 particularly.

The last update 5 or 6 years ago actually made all the bunkers shallower.

[Jeff Schley]

Yeah they are very shallow Matt.
Also two things from the broadcast so far.

• Announcers said that the PGA doesn't want to divulge the stimpmeter speeds! Kudos for being anti-USGA Mike Davis.
• Who are these fans wandering around? I thought they weren't allowing fans? Not many but probably a couple hundred or so.

[Bernie Bell]

Geez, tough crowd.  Lotta negativity.  Harding is a 5 in Confidential Guide, same as Torrey Pines.  I don't think the goal was to "outrank" SFGC or Olympic.  Is there a course owned by any other major US city that comes close to Harding or TP in quality and local affordability?  Plus the history.  My one play at Harding was a blast, and I didn't mind subsidizing the local free spirit I was paired with.  He was so burnt late in the day that he stood over a putt on 15 or 16 so long I thought he might have fallen asleep.   

[Kevin_Reilly]

Bernie, I grew up in SF and played Harding countless times.  My dad played there 2x a week.  That all changed for my dad after the PGA Tour Design Services "renovation"...after which the course became more expensive for residents, and very expensive for non-residents, and in many ways a less charming course and atmosphere.  My dad switched his play with his regular group to Sharp Park.  The course catered to the $$$ available from non residents....a necessity for city budget reasons.


Millions were spent at Harding, and the result wasn't worth it, in my view.  A lesson for other municipal golf projects.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Also, take note of all the cart paths that were installed...more visible on the tournament coverage.  It is one of the easiest walks in golf, but they built (at probably the most expensive $ possible given the cost structure with a municipal project) wall to wall paths throughout.  98% of the time during regular play, it is cart path only...slow for everyone even walkers (because of slow cart groups ahead).

[Bernie Bell]

That's a great perspective, Kevin, thanks.  What do you think the lessons to be learned are though?  There are a lot of competing interests in these muni projects, especially after decades of neglect.  I'm curious to see how they get balanced with the National Links Trust work on the three DC courses.

[Matt_Cohn]

I think the course is doing exactly what it's supposed to so far. Guys in the fairways are getting birdie chances. Guys in the rough are not, and plenty of them are struggling for pars.

[Buck Wolter]

Andy Johnson called the greens cut and paste in the renovation -- and what was pasted was boring and flat -- left and right bunkers on basically every hole.




https://thefriedegg.com/newsletter-2020-pga-championship-preview-tpc-harding-park/


"While the course has a dramatic routing, its greens leave a lot to be desired. In the renovation he led in the early 00s, in-house PGA Tour architect Chris Gray apparently took a lot of character out of putting surfaces and their surrounds. What’s left is a collection of fairly monotonous green sites. That’s a shame, considering the ingenuity and variety you see at other Willie Watson designs like Belvedere Golf Club."

[Kevin_Reilly]

Bernie,


I think the problem with what happened at Harding (from my perspective) is the city worked with PGA Tour Design (Chris Gray) with the goal of transforming it into a worthy venue for the Tour.  They've been successful with that, but compared to what could have been done if the goal was to make it a better course for day-to-day play, they came up short.   That is in addition to the fact that the project cost a fortune, for the reasons I touched on above.

[Brent Carlson]

Bernie, I grew up in SF and played Harding countless times.  My dad played there 2x a week.  That all changed for my dad after the PGA Tour Design Services "renovation"...after which the course became more expensive for residents, and very expensive for non-residents, and in many ways a less charming course and atmosphere.  My dad switched his play with his regular group to Sharp Park.  The course catered to the $$$ available from non residents....a necessity for city budget reasons.


Millions were spent at Harding, and the result wasn't worth it, in my view.  A lesson for other municipal golf projects.

$300 for non residents.  No thanks

[Bernie Bell]

Bernie,

I think the problem with what happened at Harding (from my perspective) is the city worked with PGA Tour Design (Chris Gray) with the goal of transforming it into a worthy venue for the Tour.  They've been successful with that, but compared to what could have been done if the goal was to make it a better course for day-to-day play, they came up short.   That is in addition to the fact that the project cost a fortune, for the reasons I touched on above.

My understanding is that hosting the Tour was Mr. Tatum's vision and goal. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

A Memorable Golf Course Honors a Forgettable President

This week’s P.G.A. Championship site is named for Warren G. Harding. The course’s reputation has fared better than his did.



https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/05/sports/golf/pga-championship-harding-park.html