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Chris_Clouser

What about the 2nd hole?
« on: November 05, 2003, 08:39:37 AM »
This is kind of a take off from Pat's thread.  After typing my response, I was kind of curious why the 2nd hole is often overlooked on many courses.  Obviously the designer wants the player to have a solid opening to the course, but so many courses fail on the next hole.  Crystal Downs is one of the exceptions to me.  But what courses really have great second holes and why don't they get more recognition?
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TEPaul

Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2003, 08:51:20 AM »
I've never felt that golf holes should be looked at completely on their own (in a bit of a vacuum, if you will). I think they should be looked at more in how they fit in particularly with those around them--in a varietal sense so to speak.

I certainly want to respond to Pat's thread about my own preference in a type of opening hole but when it comes to a second hole I can't think of one much better than PVGC's #2. It's a wonderful hole and made even better by how it plays off of PVGC's opening hole!
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Scratch_Nathan

Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2003, 09:05:44 AM »
Somerset Hills #2!  Though I haven't played it yet, it looks like one of the best #2s I've ever seen.  

I'm a fan of "Elm" on WFW as well.
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A_Clay_Man

Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2003, 09:29:05 AM »
SFGC's second is their #1 handicap and is a relatively straight away down than uphill Par 4 with a severe green. Spyglass Hill has to have the greatest second hole anywhere, but I may be a bit biased. Cypress points second is a special place but it may be that the golfer is still mesmorized from their cross into the kingdom, on the first.
 CPC's is a great example of continuing to introduce features that will be negotiated momentarily, that is important because the golfer isn't all that confident yet, about which game has showed up, on that particular day.
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Mike_Cirba

Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2003, 09:33:46 AM »
Plainfield
Friar's Head
Prairie Dunes

off the top of my head.
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THuckaby2

Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2003, 09:40:40 AM »
Oh please, gentlemen.

It's been discussed many times on here.

The greatest #2 in the world is at THE National Golf Links of America.  

TH
« Last Edit: November 05, 2003, 09:40:55 AM by Tom Huckaby »
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wsmorrison

Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2003, 09:45:01 AM »
#2 at Rolling Green is a wonderful second hole.  The 1st hole appears easy from the tee with a seemingly non-intimadating drive to a left to right canted fairway, a simple looking approach that really is demanding because you have to leave it below the hole and play the slopes correctly on a large green.  The real trouble is on the green where rookies almost always 3 putt or worse.  Then you walk off that green shaking your head and have a very demanding and intimidating looking tee shot over a valley with a bunker complex left on the hill that must be carried and another bunker 50 yards behind on a long hole with the fairway pushing the ball left to right (hard to discern though).  Then a difficult approach to a well guarded green with the 1st and 3rd tees visible adding to the intimidation.  A terrific hole, just like all the others.  ;)  Not saying this is the all-world second hole, but it is up there.  #2 at NGLA is great but a distant second....after Pine Valley #2!  #2 Cascades comes to mind as very good, not in the same league as PV #2 but like a lot of Flynn's second holes are awfully good.  
« Last Edit: November 05, 2003, 10:03:05 AM by wsmorrison »
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George Pazin

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Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2003, 09:48:27 AM »
I recall George Thomas' preference was a par 5 starter and a long par 4 second, usually pretty tough, to get golfers out on the course. I don't know whether or not this worked, but I know the second at Riviera is a pretty tough good par 4 during the LA Open.

If my home course is any gauge, a par 5 opener followed by a moderately tough par 3 is guaranteed to cause an immediate bottleneck.

The short par 3 2nd at JohnV's home course is not generally highly regarded, according to what John's heard, but I thought it was pretty cool. It's kind of like the 7th at Pebble, with bunkers ringing a tiny green and, of course, no ocean behind - but long is definitely wrong.

The short par 4 2nd at Lehigh is also pretty fun. The fairway seems kind of reverse bowled, so the second shot isn't as simple as it would seem.

The 2nd at Mystic Rock is kind of a shock, after the easy opener. Must be tons of balls down in that rock quarry.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2003, 09:54:32 AM by George Pazin »
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

jim_lewis

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Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2003, 09:53:46 AM »
The second hole on Pinehurst #2 is one of the 2 or 3 best holes on the course. One of the great green complexes in the world.  Aa far better hole than the second at NGLA, in my opinion.

Jim Lewis
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"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

THuckaby2

Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2003, 09:56:03 AM »
We all have our opinions, Crusty.   ;D

I shall admit to only seeing Pinehurst #2 on TV.  I would say that arguably the second hole is on a level with NGLA #2.  What makes it "a far better hole" than the one I have as the best #2 I have ever seen...

Educate me.

TH
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A_Clay_Man

Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2003, 09:56:30 AM »
George brings up a good point about getting people moving. Since most of the time wasted ocurrs on the greens, perhaps having severe greens early in the round is something that could be minimzed in future designs that will have pace as a focus.
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jim_lewis

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Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2003, 10:07:33 AM »
Tom:

I really do not wish to debate the merits of NGLA #2. I am just not a big fan of that hole. The second at #2 is a long par 4 with a treacherous green that features a great sucker pin back right and a forward bunker about 25 yards front/right. I get to look at that hole every day as I leave my home, and I get goose bumps just looking at that green complex.

You are right that we all have our opinions. I just don't seem to appreciate quirkiness as much as some. That probably explains why I don't like Tobacco Road and I don't appreciate some of the holes at NGLA as much as many here do.

Jim Lewis
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"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

THuckaby2

Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2003, 10:23:28 AM »
Jim:

AHA!  Well then that explains it.  I wouldn't call #2 at NGLA "quirky" - for me it's just great - but I can understand how you might.  Our tastes just seem to be opposite - I like holes where one has a tough choice to make and there is more going on than meets the eye, and I have a strong preference for short par 4s, especially if they are reachable - all of which describes #2 at NGLA in a nutshell - more than I do punishing long two-shotters, no matter how great the green complex might be.

So I can most definitely understand your preference for #2 on PH#2, and how you would call it a far superior hole to NGLA's second.  To each his own.

One thing we have to agree on is this:  you are darn lucky to have Pinehurst to look at every day!   ;D

TH
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Mike Benham

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Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2003, 10:46:38 AM »
I'll nominate #2 Olympic Lake.  One of the few uphill driving holes on the course (which is hard to believe with the terrain) and the most undulating fairway on the course.  Club selection off the tee is important and favoring the left side of the fairway is a must but with the most risk if you miss farther left.

Uphill approach shot (again, one of 3 most severe on the course) to a sneakly slick green with a false front ...
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2003, 11:19:04 AM »
TEPaul,

I hate to agree with you, but # 2 at Pine Valley is a spectacular hole, let alone a great second hole.

Any questions that may have existed in the golfers mind after playing # 1, relative to the flavor of the golf course, are quickly cleared up in the play of # 2.

It's a great hole in any position.
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2003, 11:24:57 AM »
Peter Allen described the 2nd at Crowborough Beacon as 'as fierce a par four as ever I saw.'  It's but a few miles from Royal Ashdown Forest (recent AOTD) and is well worth a visit if anyone is in the area.
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JohnV

Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2003, 01:53:44 PM »
#2 at Oakmont is a great short par 4.  It is definitely continues the tone set by the first with probably the most difficult green on the course.  After that, you know that even the short holes can't be taken for granted at this course.  Oakmont has a great collection of shortish par 4s with numbers 2, 5, 11, 14 and 17.
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Tom_Doak

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Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2003, 02:27:20 PM »
The main thing about a good second hole is that it should establish a good contrast with the opener ... it should show the range of the golf course.

The two opening holes at Pacific Dunes are a good combo.  Both are pretty short but into the wind.  The first is quite narrow and you can't exactly see where you're going; the second is quite wide with a nasty bunker in the middle and you can see it all (and then some).

The first two holes at St. Andrews are also a great contrast:  you've got to pitch it into the first, and you'd better run it into the second.
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George Pazin

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Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2003, 02:37:49 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on November 05, 2003, 02:27:20 PM
The main thing about a good second hole is that it should establish a good contrast with the opener ... it should show the range of the golf course.

More reason to applaud Oakmont's opening. Long tough par 4  (is it a 5 for the members? ) with a fallaway green followed by the most underrated short par 4 in America, mentioned by John above.

Pretty good contrast between 1 & 2 at The Rawls Course, my home away from home. :)
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Steve Lapper

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Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2003, 02:49:22 PM »
Ahhhh!!!

    I finally have a legitimate reason to tout my home course. First though, in great deference, I think PV#2 or even Shinnecock or Sand Hills #2's are the best. That said and in accordance with Tom Doak, the second hole at Hamitlon Farm, a 568 5 par downhill dogleg then back uphill is a beauty. It superbly contrasts the 340 yd first and require that every shot from drive to putt, be no less than solid and well-aimed. It is the hole that most often sees the range from birdie to double. My personal favorite at HFGC.

Slap
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Gary_Smith

Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2003, 03:06:26 PM »
I like #2 at Medinah #3. After a get into the round, moderate par 4 as the opener, the 2nd hole is a "let's get down to business, gentlemen" scary par 3 over the lake, normally into the wind, with a hellacious back to front sloping green. You don't want to be way above the hole on this green, yet getting it over the water is the first thing on your mind. I saw quite a few final round hopes at the '90 Open get dashed on this hole from where I was standing immediately behind the tee. It is also quite a beautiful hole and tee shot.
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John Foley

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Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2003, 03:50:17 PM »
#2 at Pinehurst #2 is such a great contrast to the first hole and as Jim Lewis said a great green complex. So much more demanding than the first.

The other one I'm suprised no one has mentioned is Sand Hills. Great tee shot and, if possible, an even better green site.

One other point, I don't like par 3 or very short driveable 4's for second holes. IMHO the par 3's really set a character for a course and the build up to them is better served if you wait a few more holes. As for the very short 4's, you need a few holes warm up before you get to one.
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ian

Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2003, 06:42:59 PM »
Highland Golf Links #2 is perfect. Brutal long tough par four with a difficult green; that also has no bunkers and lots of room to play safe for your 5.

No definative answer to the 2nd hole really though, I think it is more important to find the right hole in the right land.
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Doug Siebert

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Re:What about the 2nd hole?
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2003, 10:46:24 PM »
Hard to top North Berwick's 2nd for the view and the scenario.
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