Other Than TOC

[Ira Fishman]

On the Reverse Camber thread, there are a few references to Woking 3. Clearly, Woking 4 is a very influential hole for gca. So Woking has two holes of influence plus my guess is several green contours. And even more clearly, TOC is the course with the most lasting influence on gca. But excluding it, what courses have had the most influence on design and design theory?


Ira

[John Kavanaugh]

Quail Crossing in Southern Indiana. It’s where Doak learned the subtle nuances of what doesn’t work.

[Peter Pallotta]

Quail Crossing in Southern Indiana. It’s where Doak learned the subtle nuances of what doesn’t work.

Very nice. Subtle indeed.
That was in his youthful purist phase -- before he (rightly) recognized it as a pejorative term and career-limiting approach!

[Greg Smith]

As influential in a possible good way, I think I'll throw out there:

Oakmont
Sunningdale Old
NGLA
Augusta
Royal Melbourne
TPC Sawgrass
Muirfield (HCEG)
Pinehurst No. 2

I think all of these represented definable "watershed" moments where golf design started or branched off down some durable, productive path, and except for Sawgrass they were created during a germinal time period for change.   On the other hand:

Firestone
Augusta
TPC Sawgrass
Doral

created watershed moments of a possible negative nature (ANGC and Sawgrass are my two-faced examples!)

***

Many other great courses could have been watersheds, but were so "one-off" in terms of their design or setting that their concepts are simply less translatable.  Think:  Pebble, Cypress, Pine Valley.  In modern times a course such as Cape Kidnappers might fit that mold.  In the links world, Royal West Norfolk is an example of this IMO.  Some golf courses of this category MAY actually be the greatest in the world due to that ineffable "something" that makes things less "analyzable".

[Tom_Doak]

Quail Crossing in Southern Indiana. It’s where Doak learned the subtle nuances of what doesn’t work.

Very nice. Subtle indeed.
That was in his youthful purist phase -- before he (rightly) recognized it as a pejorative term and career-limiting approach!

Nah.  I just hadn't built a new golf course in three years, and I had a lot of ideas that needed to get out!

[Tom_Doak]

As influential in a possible good way, I think I'll throw out there:

Oakmont
Sunningdale Old
NGLA
Augusta
Royal Melbourne
TPC Sawgrass
Muirfield (HCEG)
Pinehurst No. 2

That's a pretty good list.  I did an article for ESQUIRE once on the most influential golf courses, and I think I included all of those except for Sunningdale and Muirfield.


But it depends on whether you mean influential for golf ARCHITECTS or for GOLFERS.  For golfers, most of conventional wisdom is based on what they've seen on TV.  For architects, it nearly always includes courses that are less well known but unconventional.  I would say a place like Tobacco Road has been influential for many of today's designers, even though it isn't highly ranked.


For me, personally, I would say the five most influential courses are


St Andrews
Royal Melbourne
NGLA
Garden City
Crystal Downs


and maybe North Berwick.

[John Emerson]

No love for Sand Hills for modern design or was it too late in the period?

[Tom_Doak]

No love for Sand Hills for modern design or was it too late in the period?

It has been very influential for a lot of people.


For me, personally, my ideas were already pretty well formed by the time I saw Sand Hills, partly from knowing Ben Crenshaw for years.  The biggest impact it had for me was to make what I was doing "trendy" instead of "out there".

[Paul Rudovsky]

Tom--




I would think North Berwick would be the most influential in terms of individual golf holes...for example:


NB #1 as basis for NGLA #1?
NB #9 as basis for Maidstone #13 (par 5 headed toward beach just before par 3 in corner)
NB #9 &10 as basis for Seminole 17 & 18
NB #6 as basis for Seminole #5
NB #2 as first driving Cape hole
NB #15 Redan as basis for dozens and dozens and dozens


Best
Paul

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:


I don't know.  I've read a lot of the old magazines about golf architecture from back in the day and I do not remember any of those holes being cited as exemplars back then, other than the Redan.


Are you sure Donald Ross ever saw North Berwick?  [He very well could have, as it was famous in his day, but I certainly have never seen anything in print where he mentioned it.]

[Ira Fishman]

Speaking of Ross, I would have thought that someone would have mentioned Royal Dornoch because of its influence on him and others.


If I am not mistaken, the Dyes spent a fair amount of time in Scotland when he went to play in a competition as a young man. Any courses particularly influential on/for him?


Ira

[Paul Rudovsky]

Paul:


I don't know.  I've read a lot of the old magazines about golf architecture from back in the day and I do not remember any of those holes being cited as exemplars back then, other than the Redan.


Are you sure Donald Ross ever saw North Berwick?  [He very well could have, as it was famous in his day, but I certainly have never seen anything in print where he mentioned it.]

Tom--


I am old but not old enough to answer that .  But my understanding is that the three important Scottish courses before 1900 were TOC, Prestwick and North Berwick, so IMO it would be surprising if he did not see it. 


I distinctly remember playing NB for the first time in 1983 (I had walked about 8-9 of the holes...the ones closest to there first tee...in 1981 and as soon as I stood on the 6th green thought of Seminole's 5th...and as soon as I stood on the 10th tee I literally said to myself "I feel like I have been here before" and when I reached the 11th tee realized I was thinking of Seminole's last two.  And the comment about #2 was made to me during the 1981 walk by Herb Wind who was with me (at that time I had no ides of what a  Driving Cape hole was and said that to Herb, who said think of the tee shot at Bethpage Black's #7). 


No question that CBM, Raynor and company made their use of "model holes' part of their "thing"...but other (such as Ross) might not have  wanted to publicize that...also, no question that architects, artists, etc etc are often subconsciously be affected by what they have seen and experienced elsewhere without even consciously knowing it.


Only thing I am sure about is that we will never absolutely know the answer to these questions...which probably makes them more fun.

[Ted Sturges]

Quail Crossing in Southern Indiana. It’s where Doak learned the subtle nuances of what doesn’t work.

Just curious JK, what architecturally doesn't work for you at Quail Crossing?


TS

[Adam Clayman]

Harbour Town, use to get mentioned as a seminal work.

[John Kavanaugh]

Quail Crossing in Southern Indiana. It’s where Doak learned the subtle nuances of what doesn’t work.

Just curious JK, what architecturally doesn't work for you at Quail Crossing?


TS

The exact reason I said subtle nuance is because I can not explain the failure of the course to appeal to any demographic.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I recall the World Atlas of Golf calling Sunningdale pretty important as the first, best inland course in GBI.  I think Cornish said about the same.


Similarly, I think the many early US courses, where they similarly tried to adapt the old game to very new conditions, sometimes coming up with very different looks, some of which remain basically as models to this day.


Agree that Augusta and a few others courses built in the Depression, minimizing bunkers to only those in play, etc., were a big paradigm shift, that as I explained in some post on bunkers, truly lasted until maybe 2000, when free money convinced many that the big, numerous bunker era was okay for a return.  For most of us, it is still the operative method of bunkering.



As to what influenced Pete Dye over there, I would guess a lot, but had the pleasure of playing Prestwick with him, and when we got to the 18th tee, he pointed to the straight ditch along the fw and said, "There!  That is the feature that convinced me to move away from the curves of RTJ to straighter lines."  So, there is that.


I don't recall anything telling us that Ross thought the Redan was anything special, but I could be wrong.

[Ted Sturges]

Quail Crossing in Southern Indiana. It’s where Doak learned the subtle nuances of what doesn’t work.

Just curious JK, what architecturally doesn't work for you at Quail Crossing?


TS

The exact reason I said subtle nuance is because I can not explain the failure of the course to appeal to any demographic.

You should seek political office.  Seems like lots of words used and no real opinion given.  You exhibit the skills of a seasoned politician.  Count me among the demographic that likes Quail Crossing.


Some features of the course I really like:


*The 4th hole.  A natural hole with a rolling fairway and a fun green at the top of a natural ridge.


*The 12th hole.  Another fun green that sits right behind the valley where the old train rail line used to be.


*The 14th hole.  Another natural hole with the bunkers placed exactly where they need to be to make the 2nd shot uncomfortable.  I love Tom's use of a green on a par 5 that falls away from front to back.


*The 15th hole.  I have never seen an inverse biarritz green before this one.


*The 16th hole.  Maybe the best hole on the course.  A very interesting 10,000 square foot green on a hole that is very well bunkered. 


TS

[John Kavanaugh]

I find the course to have to many "bad mood triggers". I think Tom, for good reason, hated Southern Indiana and you can feel it in the soil. Or maybe that's just the mine subsidence.


Could the course do less to promote Doak as the architect? I've seen more flattering resumes on lost dog posters.


https://quailcrossing.com/course-architect/


Take a look at this gallery of fun and ask yourself why I find Florida to be progressive.


https://quailcrossing.com/gallery/

The range is irons only.

The house on the second hole is the worst placed home that I don't own I have ever witnessed on a golf course.

I had to look up the third.

Ok, now I'm in a bad mood and standing on the fourth tee. Too little too late.

[Sean_A]

As influential in a possible good way, I think I'll throw out there:

Oakmont
Sunningdale Old
NGLA
Augusta
Royal Melbourne
TPC Sawgrass
Muirfield (HCEG)
Pinehurst No. 2

That's a pretty good list.  I did an article for ESQUIRE once on the most influential golf courses, and I think I included all of those except for Sunningdale and Muirfield.


But it depends on whether you mean influential for golf ARCHITECTS or for GOLFERS.  For golfers, most of conventional wisdom is based on what they've seen on TV.  For architects, it nearly always includes courses that are less well known but unconventional.  I would say a place like Tobacco Road has been influential for many of today's designers, even though it isn't highly ranked.


For me, personally, I would say the five most influential courses are


St Andrews
Royal Melbourne
NGLA
Garden City
Crystal Downs

and maybe North Berwick.

I still think Huntercombe was very influential.  When you read the list of archies who were members of the club, something was surely brewing.

Ciao

[Bernie Bell]

Speaking of Ross, I would have thought that someone would have mentioned Royal Dornoch because of its influence on him and others.


If I am not mistaken, the Dyes spent a fair amount of time in Scotland when he went to play in a competition as a young man. Any courses particularly influential on/for him?


Ira

He was sufficiently influenced by the functional, frugal use of railroad ties at Prestwick that it became a signature in US.  Apparently earlier Americans had done the same, as Hunter talked about this:  On the links, because of the power of wind-driven sand, heavy railway ties and dune grasses are needed to stabilize sand “not because they are thought to be picturesque or desirable hazards, but solely to bind and hold fast the sand.  It is rather amusing sometimes to see on inland courses heavy timbers used to support the obdurate clay banks of a bunker, or lyme grass planted to hold together the most retentive soil.  Where these protective features serve a real need they are impressive and sometimes beautiful; but where there is no need for them, they appear as a silly affectation.” 

[Niall C]

Paul:


I don't know.  I've read a lot of the old magazines about golf architecture from back in the day and I do not remember any of those holes being cited as exemplars back then, other than the Redan.


Are you sure Donald Ross ever saw North Berwick?  [He very well could have, as it was famous in his day, but I certainly have never seen anything in print where he mentioned it.]

Tom--
I am old but not old enough to answer that .  But my understanding is that the three important Scottish courses before 1900 were TOC, Prestwick and North Berwick, so IMO it would be surprising if he did not see it. 

Paul,


A lot happened pre-1900 and depending on when exactly you are talking about you could put Musselburgh, perhaps Montrose and Leven ahead of Prestwick and NB. As for Ross, he did manage to play in a few Opens and other comps so may well have played NB.


Niall

[Bruce Katona]

JK:

Too many trees out on the course in strategic locations for the beverage cart gal (not PC sorry) to miss you to re-hydrate as she zooms by?




You are always a breath of air on GCA.


BK

[Ted Sturges]

JK:


You are always a breath of air on GCA.


BK

Somehow I'm convinced that the above sentence is intentionally missing the word "fresh"...