[mike_malone]

As I watch the European Tour I see players having great difficulty approaching a back pin on 15 which is up hill from the front of the green but falls off to danger behind.


I think that may be the toughest pin to approach.

[Tommy Williamsen]

For me it is a pin on a back shelf from anywhere outside 150 yards. I don't hit it high enough anymore to stop it on the green. It bounces over. I have to bounce it up. Most of the time it stays short and I have a tough putt.

[Adam Lawrence]

Mike -- this is Rees Jones's theory too. He reckons that the back pin is the toughest for top players because they spin it so much they invariably suck the ball back down the (usually) back to front green. In the past it was always thought that front pins were hardest because of fronting hazards, but with modern day spin levels the big boys can just fly it to the middle of the green and suck it back. That isn't an option for a back pin, so they have to control their spin level.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think the slope matters, as discussed a bit on the Muirfield thread about hole no. 16 and adding slope, I think to the back left pin there.


I asked all the pros I know about it, and yeah, back is always harder.  If they have an open front angle, and are between clubs, they just use the lesser club for an uphill putt.  If coming over a bunker, (which they seem to prefer over risking a driver to a fw edge that misses) then they take the longer club and use more spin.  They will use a back slope to direct a ball to the pin, but Lanny Wadkins once noted that the very back of the green edge could be too steep and cause a ball to suck back too far.  Again, I was never able to figure out exactly what that slope would be, but gathered it would be the last 10 feet sloping up over 3% or so.


JN once opined that about the only time he would hit a running shot (or low spin, relatively speaking) was on a long par 4, downwind, 2 tier green narrower at the back, and he would try to "chase it up the slope to the pin." I gathered he wanted it to hit the widest part of the green to avoid hazards, and use contours to get it there, much like Lanny would use contours to move a ball sideways on the green towards the pin. 


I still wonder about a downhill, downwind shot with the pin at the front behind a bunker.  The two natural factors tell you to club down, but the bunker tells you to club up, if there is ample room behind the pin to play safe.  It just feels counterintuitive to have long be safe.

[Carl Rogers]

Riverfront has number of greens that slope predominantly front to back.  In all the years I have played there I have never hit an approach shot close to a front hole location.  The shot  winds up short in the fringe or bounds to the middle.

[Tom_Doak]

Riverfront has number of greens that slope predominantly front to back.  In all the years I have played there I have never hit an approach shot close to a front hole location.  The shot  winds up short in the fringe or bounds to the middle.

That is exactly the problem with front to back sloping greens.  There are very few courses in America which maintain the approach as firm as the green, so it's a great idea that doesn't work very well practically.


It's worse on modern courses with USGA greens, because nobody wants the soils on the approach to contaminate the greens mix.  So there is usually a little rise right at the front of the green to keep the drainage off it, before the greens runs away.

[John Kavanaugh]

As I watch the European Tour I see players having great difficulty approaching a back pin on 15 which is up hill from the front of the green but falls off to danger behind.


I think that may be the toughest pin to approach.

You can’t hide your over abundance of false fronts with this silly observation.

[Tom_Doak]

As I watch the European Tour I see players having great difficulty approaching a back pin on 15 which is up hill from the front of the green but falls off to danger behind.


I think that may be the toughest pin to approach.

Brooks Koepka had us build a hole location on the 5th green at Memorial Park exactly like that.  There is a long slope up to it, so if you land short with spin the ball will come way back into the middle of the green, and the shelf is not very deep.  I'm going to sit and watch that hole in November to see how it worked.

[Thomas Dai]

Ignoring a bunch of other factors, average and lessor right handed players mainly slice so left side pins in general are harder for them.
And front-right pins ain't the easiest for right handed low ball drawers of the ball.
Plus the firmer the green the ......
atb

[mike_malone]

As I watch the European Tour I see players having great difficulty approaching a back pin on 15 which is up hill from the front of the green but falls off to danger behind.


I think that may be the toughest pin to approach.

You can’t hide your over abundance of false fronts with this silly observation.

Thanks for that John. It allows me to clarify.  I’m speaking of the difficulty of planning and then the execution because of the multiple possibilities.
Greens with a false front often have one just play conservatively so while the execution may be tough there is less planning.


I think there is a difference between uphill approaches and false fronts as well.

[Rob Marshall]

For me it is a pin on a back shelf from anywhere outside 150 yards. I don't hit it high enough anymore to stop it on the green. It bounces over. I have to bounce it up. Most of the time it stays short and I have a tough putt.

Tommy, I remember John Cook saying that Ken Venturi taught him to go in high to front pins and low to back pins.

[Andrew Harvie]

Statistically speaking, front left and back right are the hardest flags no matter the undulations. The easiest, on the flip side, would be short right and long left

[Peter Pallotta]

For me it is a pin on a back shelf from anywhere outside 150 yards. I don't hit it high enough anymore to stop it on the green. It bounces over. I have to bounce it up. Most of the time it stays short and I have a tough putt.

Tommy, I remember John Cook saying that Ken Venturi taught him to go in high to front pins and low to back pins.

And I think Ken V got that from Ben Hogan: front pin, take one less club than you need and hit it harder, to add both height and spin; to a back pin, take one more club than you need and hit it less hard, to bring it in lower and with less spin.

[Alex Miller]

Statistically speaking, front left and back right are the hardest flags no matter the undulations. The easiest, on the flip side, would be short right and long left

Not if you're a lefty!


I think many of the answers fall into the "high point on the green adjacent to a fall off," be it bunker or slope or perhaps unfortunately water.


Add in a slope in the fairway that cambers against the preferred shot shape and now you're really cooking!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Statistically speaking, front left and back right are the hardest flags no matter the undulations. The easiest, on the flip side, would be short right and long left

Not questioning the idea, but where are these statistics, because I haven't seen those and would like to!


I do know that some golf stat guys tell us that hitting your preferred shot pattern results in a tighter pattern over hitting the opposite to fit the shot (i.e., JN trying a hook or Hogan trying a fade)  And, I know good players tend to miss long left while average ones tend to miss short right, so that would fit.  Just wondering who, why, what, where, etc. of those stats you allude to.  Thanks in advance!

[Jay Mickle]

Most any pin position close to a perimeter location[size=78%] on Pinehurst #2. [/size]

[Ira Fishman]

For you good players, I have no idea. For us mediocre players, anything in the middle because there is not enough margin for error in any direction.


Ira

[John Kavanaugh]

It feels like to me that the majority of shots hit to lose majors were short right. Of course I say this sitting in a chair that no doubt was once occupied by Kenny Perry.

[David Ober]

The toughest pins are very much player specific. If you favor a low, tight draw, for instance, then the toughest pin for you is very likely a back-right pin on an uphill shot.


If you like to hit high cuts, then that shot does not give you the same amount of difficulty as it does for the first player.

[Mark_Fine]

Loaded question because it all depends on so many factors such as the firmness of the turf and the hazard set up not to mention the individual player's abilities. 

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