Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Consensus (see p. 6)

[John Foley]

Streamsong Blue # 5 - Doak
Streamson Black # 9 - Hanse

World Woods Pine Barrens # 15 - Fazio
Kiawah Ocean #17 Dye
Sand Hills -#14 - C & C
Royal New Kent #2 - Stranz
Atlantic #13  - Rees
Shelter Harbor #9 - Hurdzan
Mammoth Dunes #2 -  DMK

That was tougher than I thought!

[Daryl David]

Cabot Cliffs #17 Coore Crenshaw  Par 4
Lofoten Links #2 Turner  Par 3
Gamble Sands #17 Kidd  Par 4
Wine Valley #15 Hixon  Par 5
Bro Hof Slott Castle #2 Charlton  Par 3
Tumble Creek #4 Doak  Par 5
Cape Wickham #12 DeVries  Par 4
Aldarra #14 Fazio  Par 4
Kingsbarns #6 Phillips  Par 4

[John Mayhugh]

Giving this a try. There's a lot of modern course candidates that I haven't played.

3 - Kiawah Ocean, par 4, Dye
4 - Barnbougle Dunes, par 4, Doak/Clayton 
6 - Wolf Point, par 3, Nuzzo
10 - MPCC Shore, par 5, Strantz
11 - Swinkelsche, par 4, Pont
13 - Rustic Canyon, par 5, Hanse/Wagner/Shackelford   (strongly considered High Pointe - Doak, if only for the green)
14 - Greywalls, par 4, DeVries
15 - Friars Head, par 4, Coore/Crenshaw
16 - Bandon Dunes, par 4, Kidd

[Michael Wolf]

Shoal Creek par 5 6th hole by Nicklaus
Ohoopee par 3 13th by Hanse
Sweetens Cove par 4 5th by King/Collins
Sand Hills par 4 8th by Coore/Crenshaw
Penninsula Kingswood North par 5 17th by Mike Cockring
Barnbougle par 4 4th by Tom Doak
Meadowbrook CC par 4 14th by Andy Staples
Black Creek par 5 6th by Brian Silva
Wolf Point par 4 5th by Mike Nuzzo


Couldn't quite justify including anything from the UK. I tried.


Michael

[Kalen Braley]

Limited my picks to what i've played:

#9  Par 4 - Sagebrush - Whitman
#7  Par 4 - Ballyneall - Doak
#10  Par 4 - Chambers Bay - Jones 2
#5  Par 4 - Wine Valley - Hixson
#12 Par 4 - Gozzer Ranch - Fazio
#11  Par 4 - Black Rock - Engh
#11  Par 3 - MPCC Shore - Stantz
#14  Par 4 - Black Mesa - Spann

Couldn't come up with a final hole due to only one architect restriction, oh well. 

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

A few from GB&I -


Cruit Island - 6th - designed by God (apparently laid out by pro from Letterkenny whose name I’m afraid I don’t know)
Channel Course at Burnham & Berrow - 8th - by Hawtree I believe
Cashen Course at Ballybunion - 15th by Jones
Carne (Original) - 17th by Hackett
Carne Kilmore - 7th by McIntosh (cheque in post please Ally!)
The Bann at Castlerock - 2nd, 3rd or 8th - designer unknown to me but did a super job
Castle Stuart - 3rd - Parsinen/Hanse
That’ll do.
Atb

Thomas,


Cruit was designed by the City of Derry club pro Michael Doherty. He also designed Cloughaneely Golf Club in Falcarragh (next town over from Dunfanaghy). Michael Doherty died in 2016, aged 77.

[Brett Wiesley]

Nice to see Ran's picture of #13 at Sand Hollow.  I wanted to include this in my nine listed holes, but thought I would be slammed for the listed architect.....John Fought but I think Andy Staples was responsible for most of the course.

[Tom_Doak]

Well, we have 49 different architects represented, not including co architects.  But still not much consensus. 


Keep them coming . . . I will keep taking votes for a week or so to see what shakes out.

[Peter Pallotta]

Impossible to do, but I'd love to get 'inside' the selection process to understand what went into the choice of a golf hole by a given *architect* when for that specific hole there were better/more favoured options *architecturally* speaking. In short: what takes precedence for each spot on an eclectic 18 like this. Again, I know that would be impossible, but the answers would be telling, I think.

[Pete_Pittock]

A couple of more
Bandon Dunes #4 Par 4 410 yds
D M Kidd. Understated hole, landing area sheltered by wind, making picking the next club difficult. Great opening view of the Pacific with a well placed front bunker.


Bandon Trails # 1 Par 4 391 yds
Coore/Crenshaw. Hard first shot with the winter prevailing winds, hard approach in summer prevailing. Two teared green hard to putt.  Don't remember ever bogeying it (quite often in pocket by then).

[Mike_Clayton]

Shoal Creek par 5 6th hole by Nicklaus
Ohoopee par 3 13th by Hanse
Sweetens Cove par 4 5th by King/Collins
Sand Hills par 4 8th by Coore/Crenshaw
Penninsula Kingswood North par 5 17th by Mike Cockring
Barnbougle par 4 4th by Tom Doak
Meadowbrook CC par 4 14th by Andy Staples
Black Creek par 5 6th by Brian Silva
Wolf Point par 4 5th by Mike Nuzzo




Couldn't quite justify including anything from the UK. I tried.


Michael

Peninsula North, par 5,17th by OCCM.

[Garland Bayley]

Limited my picks to what i've played:

#9  Par 4 - Sagebrush - Whitman
#7  Par 4 - Ballyneall - Doak
#10  Par 4 - Chambers Bay - Jones 2
#5  Par 4 - Wine Valley - Hixson
#12 Par 4 - Gozzer Ranch - Fazio
#11  Par 4 - Black Rock - Engh
#11  Par 3 - MPCC Shore - Stantz
#14  Par 4 - Black Mesa - Spann

Couldn't come up with a final hole due to only one architect restriction, oh well. 

Kalen's post made me realize it was 9 at Sagebrush that I intended to list. Edited my post to reflect the correct hole.

When we played KP there, my buddy Dr. Bob and I were in a foursomes match against Bill McBride and his partner. Bill was rude to Bob on the tee, thereby getting Bob's adrenaline up resulting in Bob driving the green giving us a two putt birdie and another hole won.
[/quote]

[Adam G]

15 at Boston Golf Club (Hanse) - most say 5 but I prefer 15.

[Andrew Harvie]

Limited my picks to what i've played:

#9  Par 4 - Sagebrush - Whitman
#7  Par 4 - Ballyneall - Doak
#10  Par 4 - Chambers Bay - Jones 2
#5  Par 4 - Wine Valley - Hixson
#12 Par 4 - Gozzer Ranch - Fazio
#11  Par 4 - Black Rock - Engh
#11  Par 3 - MPCC Shore - Stantz
#14  Par 4 - Black Mesa - Spann

Couldn't come up with a final hole due to only one architect restriction, oh well. 

Kalen's post made me realize it was 9 at Sagebrush that I intended to list. Edited my post to reflect the correct hole.

When we played KP there, my buddy Dr. Bob and I were in a foursomes match against Bill McBride and his partner. Bill was rude to Bob on the tee, thereby getting Bob's adrenaline up resulting in Bob driving the green giving us a two putt birdie and another hole won.

There's a funny story on the four folks who primarily worked on Sagebrush (Whitman/Mingay/Zokol/Suny) and that 9th green. It is intense

[Mike Nuzzo]

Hi Tom
In what ways is the 14th at Murfield Village better than the 16th at Wolf Point?
#16 is one of the available numbers on your list
Wolf Point is a far more natural golf hole, and seems more strategic with a much more interesting green
Aggressive play at Wolf Point can wind up through the green in the creek - so it can play difficult also - it is one of the holes with the widest scoring variances - lots of birdies and lots of others
Peace

[Tom_Doak]

Hi Tom
In what ways is the 14th at Murfield Village better than the 16th at Wolf Point?
#16 is one of the available numbers on your list
Wolf Point is a far more natural golf hole, and seems more strategic with a much more interesting green
Aggressive play at Wolf Point can wind up through the green in the creek - so it can play difficult also - it is one of the holes with the widest scoring variances - lots of birdies and lots of others
Peace

Maybe I don't like holes with lots of "others".  Sixteen would not be the first hole I picked from Wolf Point.  But, don't take it personally:  there are a lot of holes nominated so far that I would never have considered for my own picks.


Gotta say, though, I'm surprised that Ally is the only architect who participates here, who has nominated holes in this thread so far.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I haven't seen any #1s, which supports Ran's pick for a memorable first golf hole.
Most of these were also more memorable for me, although it appears I adhered to the hole # rule while not mandatory.
#1 Tobacco Road - Stranz
#4 World Woods - Fazio
#5 Casa de Campo - Dye
#6 Pacific Dunes - Doak
#11 Blackhawk - Whitman
#13 Rustic Canyon - Hanse
#14 Black Mesa - Spann
#15 Friar's Head - C&C
#16 Wolf Point - Nuzzo

[Thomas Dai]

A few from GB&I -
Cruit Island - 6th - designed by God (apparently laid out by pro from Letterkenny whose name I’m afraid I don’t know)

Thomas,
Cruit was designed by the City of Derry club pro Michael Doherty. He also designed Cloughaneely Golf Club in Falcarragh (next town over from Dunfanaghy). Michael Doherty died in 2016, aged 77.

Thank you for this Dónal.
He certainly did a fine job. Cruit is splendid golf in of course a quite magnificent setting.
I shall amend the original post.
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

#1 Tobacco Road - Stranz

I was hoping somebody would pick that hole.  If you include Ran's pick of #4 at Tobacco Road, every one of the four par-5's there has been nominated.  That's impressive.

[Kalen Braley]

This exercise is a lot like the Olympics where each country may only get 2 spots for an event and the competition ends up being massively diluted while otherwise deserving athletes are left at home. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Kalen, et al.,


We don't know what El Gloton's goal is with this exercise. It will be as interesting as the results.

[mark chalfant]

1. Friar's Head,  Coore/Crenshaw          p.4
2. Snake River Canyon, Tom Weiskopf   p.4
3. Oak Tree,         Pete Dye                  p.5
6. Boston,       Gil Hanse                      p.3
9. Erin Hills  Hurzdan/Fry                     p.3

10. Sebonack   Nicklaus/Doak               p.4
15. Bayside,NE   Axland, Proctor          p.5
17. Dismal River Red, Tom Doak          p.4
18. Patriot   R. Trent Jones Jr. Jay Blasi p.4   

[Mike_Clayton]

I thought Gil's 16th on the Olympic Course in Rio was one of the best short 4s I'd seen.
I caddied there and one day (3rd I think) the three tee shots were no more than 10 feet apart just short of the green and each player had an entirely different shot - and they were no more than 30 feet from the hole.


And, the position of the pin dictated much different tee shots - always an interesting conundrum on a drivable but dangerous 4. Of course, the only way to make a 5 was to try and make a 3. They hole gave you a 4.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Kidd        - Bandon Dunes #4 par 4
Doak       - Ballyneal #7 par 4
C-C         - Bandon Trails #4 par 4
Weiskopf  - Forest Dunes #15 par 5
Nicklaus   - Cabo del Sol Cove Club #7 par 3 (because #17 Ocean Course is NLE)
Dye         -  Kiawah Ocean #14 par 3
Devries    -  Kingsley #15 par 4
Fazio       -   World Woods #4 par 5
Love/Cowley - Diamante #14 par 4

[Tom_Doak]

This exercise is a lot like the Olympics where each country may only get 2 spots for an event and the competition ends up being massively diluted while otherwise deserving athletes are left at home.

Well, that's the nature of the game when you are choosing an eclectic course, honestly.


Yes, the political correctness of using different architects makes it much harder, but the discussion of what is their *best* hole gets more interesting, the more good ones they have done.  That's fodder for several threads, if we wanted to pursue it.


In the 1980's I did an article for GOLF Magazine on the 100 Best Golf Holes in America, and we made a limit of no more than two holes for any course, to spread around the wealth.  I think Pine Valley had eleven holes nominated even with that cap of two nominations per panelist.  For that exercise we had the whole panel vote on every hole they'd played!  Not sure I will do that here, but it was a really interesting exercise.


Also, any post we get like Mike Clayton's about WHY someone favors a particular hole is great.  But we can save some of those for later, too.