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Garland Bayley

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #75 on: July 26, 2020, 10:30:48 PM »
...EDIT: Didn't realize i screwed up by putting multiple 18/17 in here so changed it out to not repeat holes.

Plus, I can blame my misunderstanding on Jeff. ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff Schley

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #76 on: July 26, 2020, 11:52:24 PM »
...EDIT: Didn't realize i screwed up by putting multiple 18/17 in here so changed it out to not repeat holes.

Plus, I can blame my misunderstanding on Jeff. ;D
Maybe I originally did it correctly and then overthought it as in all the other threads you can only pick one number 17/18 etc.  I'll stand by my edited version however. #18 Cape Wickham = Mike DeVries alter of worship  ;D
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #77 on: July 27, 2020, 06:24:45 AM »

EDIT:  Also, you've seen as many modern courses as probably anyone here, you should probably have more than one nomination!


I guess. I'll have a think.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2020, 07:24:51 AM »

He prefaced his post with reference to eclectic and difficulty. I mistakenly assumed we were to conform.


Garland:


Eclectics are a two step process - first you have to identify all the best candidates, and then you try to put them together to make a coherent course.  We are still on step one here.


Honestly I'm more interested in this part than trying to turn it into an eclectic.  What surprised me about Ran's published version was that there were no obvious choices such as the Road hole or the 16th at Cypress Point or the 5th at Mid Ocean, and I was really surprised no modern hole has been elevated to that status.  Maybe he missed a couple, but not many.


You could argue that a few holes might have more support if I had allowed more than one hole per designer, but I figured a hole shouldn't make the list if there wasn't somebody who thought it was the designer's best work.

Ira Fishman

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #79 on: July 27, 2020, 07:37:54 AM »

He prefaced his post with reference to eclectic and difficulty. I mistakenly assumed we were to conform.


Garland:


Eclectics are a two step process - first you have to identify all the best candidates, and then you try to put them together to make a coherent course.  We are still on step one here.


Honestly I'm more interested in this part than trying to turn it into an eclectic.  What surprised me about Ran's published version was that there were no obvious choices such as the Road hole or the 16th at Cypress Point or the 5th at Mid Ocean, and I was really surprised no modern hole has been elevated to that status.  Maybe he missed a couple, but not many.


You could argue that a few holes might have more support if I had allowed more than one hole per designer, but I figured a hole shouldn't make the list if there wasn't somebody who thought it was the designer's best work.


Ran's version limited to courses built over past 44 years. Hence, no Road Hole or CPC 16.


Ira

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #80 on: July 27, 2020, 08:10:17 AM »
Ira,


Maybe.  Brings up the related question of just what the regular posters here "owe" the board?  Well thought out posts every time?  No half baked opinions or glib asides?  Or, are we free to come and go as we please?  Is it wrong to occasionally throw in of a grenade and then exiting quickly? 


Mentally, I kind of fall in the middle ground. :)


Jeff,


Hold your ground buddy!!! Unless of course you want to limit your list to ASGCA past presidents.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #81 on: July 27, 2020, 08:39:33 AM »


Jeff,


Hold your ground buddy!!! Unless of course you want to limit your list to ASGCA past presidents.


Too many of them to include them all.

JBovay

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #82 on: July 27, 2020, 08:54:51 AM »
1. Aetna Springs - Tom Doak - par 4*
2. Ballyhack - Lester George - par 5
4. World Woods Pine Barrens - Tom Fazio - par 5
5. Boston GC - Gil Hanse - par 4
6. Keney Park - Matt Dusenberry - par 3
8. Cabot Links - Rod Whitman - par 5
10. Cabot Cliffs - Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw - par 5
11. TPC Sawgrass - Pete Dye - par 5
12. Royal New Kent - Mike Strantz - par 3**

* Yes, the course has been closed for a couple of years but it's one of the best openers I've ever played and still the only Doak design I've played. (Sorry, TD, I hope to play another soon.)
** This is probably more of a ?? than a !, but it epitomizes Strantz's creativity and boldness and the failure of the middle-of-nowhere housing development (+ golf course) known as Royal New Kent.

JohnVDB

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #83 on: July 27, 2020, 09:18:17 AM »
#1 - Rustic Canyon - Gil Hantz - Par 4
#3 - Bandon Trails - Coore / Crenshaw - Par 5
#6 - Cordevalle - RTJ Jr - Par 5
#7 - Ballyneal - Tom Doak, Par 4
#8 - Bandon Dunes - David Mcclay Kidd - Par 4
#10 - MPCC - Shore - Mike Strantz - Par 3
#11 - Black Creek - Brian Silva - Par 3
#11 - Broken Top - Weiskopf / Moorish - Par 4
#15 - Cassique - Tom Watson - par 4


« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 02:48:31 PM by JohnVDB »

Tim Martin

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #84 on: July 27, 2020, 09:22:34 AM »
1. Aetna Springs - Tom Doak - par 4*
2. Ballyhack - Lester George - par 5
4. World Woods Pine Barrens - Tom Fazio - par 5
5. Boston GC - Gil Hanse - par 4
6. Keney Park - Matt Dusenberry - par 3
8. Cabot Links - Rod Whitman - par 5
10. Cabot Cliffs - Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw - par 5
11. TPC Sawgrass - Pete Dye - par 5
12. Royal New Kent - Mike Strantz - par 3**

* Yes, the course has been closed for a couple of years but it's one of the best openers I've ever played and still the only Doak design I've played. (Sorry, TD, I hope to play another soon.)
** This is probably more of a ?? than a !, but it epitomizes Strantz's creativity and boldness and the failure of the middle-of-nowhere housing development (+ golf course) known as Royal New Kent.


J-No credit to Dev Emmet for Keney Park 6? If I had to pick one par three from Keney it would be 13.




JBovay

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #85 on: July 27, 2020, 09:37:01 AM »
Tim, I never played the old version of Keney Park. Based on the aerials it seems like Dusenberry kept the routing but heavily modified the greens and bunkering. Plus, I read or heard that when the course opened, it didn't have any bunkers. Thus, I consider this to be a new hole built within the last 40 years and give credit to Dusenberry.

I also thought about nominating #9 and #13 here, but they seem like basically typical template holes, whereas #6 is more unusual, with the redan look from the tee, but a wedge shot into a green filled with bumps and hollows.

Scott Champion

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #86 on: July 27, 2020, 10:12:48 AM »
3rd - Castle Stuart - Gil Hanse
5th - Barnbougle Lost Farm - Bill Coore
6th - Kingsbarns - Kyle Phillips
7th - Barnbougle Dunes - Tom Doak / Mike Clayton
9th - Ardfin - Bob Harrison
10th - Machrihanish Dunes - David McLay Kidd
18th - Cape Wickham - Mike DeVries / Darius Oliver
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 10:32:07 AM by Scott Champion »

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2020, 10:18:35 AM »
1. Aetna Springs - Tom Doak - par 4*
2. Ballyhack - Lester George - par 5
4. World Woods Pine Barrens - Tom Fazio - par 5
5. Boston GC - Gil Hanse - par 4
6. Keney Park - Matt Dusenberry - par 3
8. Cabot Links - Rod Whitman - par 5
10. Cabot Cliffs - Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw - par 5
11. TPC Sawgrass - Pete Dye - par 5
12. Royal New Kent - Mike Strantz - par 3**

* Yes, the course has been closed for a couple of years but it's one of the best openers I've ever played and still the only Doak design I've played. (Sorry, TD, I hope to play another soon.)
** This is probably more of a ?? than a !, but it epitomizes Strantz's creativity and boldness and the failure of the middle-of-nowhere housing development (+ golf course) known as Royal New Kent.
Have to disagree about #10 at Cabot Cliffs. IMO that is the worst of the six par 5s at Cliffs. The hole is too long for almost anyone to reach and the ravine short of the green requires a layup in the same spot no matter where you hit your drive. I prefer to play that hole by hitting my second shot down the first fairway to the first forward tee. Then you don’t have to worry about the ravine and it is usually an easier shot into the green.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #88 on: July 27, 2020, 10:30:11 AM »
Ira,


Maybe.  Brings up the related question of just what the regular posters here "owe" the board?  Well thought out posts every time?  No half baked opinions or glib asides?  Or, are we free to come and go as we please?  Is it wrong to occasionally throw in of a grenade and then exiting quickly? 


Mentally, I kind of fall in the middle ground. :)


Jeff,


Hold your ground buddy!!! Unless of course you want to limit your list to ASGCA past presidents.


JK, LOL.  Okay, I'll play in limited fashion, hope TD can count the results.  For one thing, I am really picking holes that were memorable to me for some reason, often just a unique feature as often for as well as how they play.  And, for those whose features I eventually tried to replicate or modify for use in my own designs.


First, I will agree with TD on


11th at Tobacco Road - Mike Strantz (nice use sandy waste, was perfect model for Quarry)


Will go with same course/architect but different holes on:


8th at Sand Hills - Coore & Crenshaw (horseshoe green. If 8th take below, could be 17 ultimate precision par 3)12th at Shadow Creek - Tom Fazio (visual illusion)
2nd at Kingsley Club - Mike DeVries (narrow front green)14th at Harbor Town - Pete Dye/Alice Dye (T shaped green, also narrow in front for tough pin)
17th at Double Eagle, however, mostly representative of a variety of short driveable par 4 holes by Morrish/Weisskopf
17th (I think, might be another) Southern Dunes - Smyers (semi Dell hole I thought was very practical for American Golf)


Grand Cypress Hole 9 - Jack Nicklaus (big fw pock marked with small bunkers, seemingly (but probably not) in random fashion as if bombe out)


And, as per JK and my post below......

3 at Kemper Lakes, Killian and Nugent, the Sombrero green. (if that gets more than my vote, it would be a miracle, but it is a good hole)


Not really sure of all the hole numbers, which is my justification for not thinking to hard about it, and including duplicates.  If TD disqualifies my votes, so be it.



« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 11:29:45 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #89 on: July 27, 2020, 11:01:36 AM »
Mob rule most often produces predictable results. You learned nothing from Killian and Nugent? They were huge back in the day.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #90 on: July 27, 2020, 11:23:27 AM »
JK,


I learned a lot from KN, but we (younger staff) used to take various field trips (or to ASGCA meetings) to see how others designed, thinking it would improve our style, with very little of it denting the craniums of the bosses. ???   In fact, looking back, its why I quit on my 29th birthday to strike out on my own.  I was at least respectful enough to move several states away to avoid hurting them, LOL>


Specifically, we went to PGA National, which was the first time I had seen grass bunkers integrated (usually at the front) with sand bunkers, one big shape with half sand half grass.  It was pretty cool, but we were designing Mission Dorado in Midland Texas at the time.  I drew a grass bunker on the front right of the first hole, and they took it out, saying "We don't do that." There were a few similar incidents, i.e., them always doing 2 mounds behind a green, always placing perimeter mounds on the inside corners/points of green shapes, fw edges, etc.  (I played with Pete Dye on an ASGCA meeting, who pointed out that a basically straight edge, rolling up and over the contours was more attractive that always pinching in on the inside curves, making the edge visually level.


Although I had already decided to leave Ken Killian by the point we renovated Desert Rose in Las Vegas, (so I had no hesitation to "try things" on his reputation, LOL, I drew a green with a grass hollow behind it, pushing the standard mounds back 5-10 yards.  We stood on the tee, I loved the depth (and the not typical for them uphill chip for shots going long) the client Jim Colbert loved it, and Ken loved it.  When we got to the green, Ken through a fit, saying "we always put the mounds next to the green" and demanded it got changed, even though it was good, if not his standard.  Colbert decided right then that maybe it would be better if I finished the job without Ken. 


So they taught me lots on the engineering side, business side, and some on the design side, but taught some things in negative ways.  I always vowed never to get that locked in as I aged, but probably haven't countered the typical aging trend of not liking change as well as I might theoretically have, LOL.  Better find a couch for this self analysis, LOL.  So, the die was cast.


But, good point, if there is a Killian and Nugent concept I repeat consistently, it's the "Sombrero" or Cowboy hat green, shallow left and right (like a brim, and usually about 50 feet deep) and deep in the middle (at least double the depth) sometimes as an upper shelf, on water carry situations, where the back middle of the green becomes the bail out.  The first time I saw it was number 3 at Kemper Lakes, and I have modified my post above as my ninth pick, so good call by you! :D



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Stephen Davis

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #91 on: July 27, 2020, 01:03:04 PM »

Cal Club #3- Phillips
Wolf Point #6- Nuzzo
Ballyneal #7 - Doak
Sand Hills #8- Coore/Crenshaw
MPCC Shore #11- Strantz
Sand Hollow #13- Fought/Staples
Chambers Bay #14- RTJ Jr/Blasi
Bandon Dunes #16- DMK
Ohoopee #17- Hanse
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 01:18:34 PM by Stephen Davis »

Ruediger Meyer

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #92 on: July 27, 2020, 01:04:27 PM »
4. 11 Waterville  short par 5               Eddy Hackett



Good God. Waterville is eligible. Of course! Thank you for the reminder. And you picked the perfect hole as well

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #93 on: July 27, 2020, 01:26:28 PM »
Never apologize for your first job. What kind of idiots would have hired your inexperienced sorry ass in the first place?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #94 on: July 27, 2020, 01:36:57 PM »
JK,


Well, I did get an offer from Art Hills, and even had relatives in Toledo, but turned it down to stay in suburban Chicago.


I visited KN when I was 12 years old, just a few weeks after playing Medinah, right after my Dad got a list of Golf Course Architects from ASGCA (who had just moved their HQ to Chicago, and he saw that in the biz pages) and then wrote that letter to them as the nearest to my house.  They told me for years, they weren't going to hire me.


At the state ASLA convention my senior year, I sat next to them, and they tried to deflect me by saying they only hired the top students. I then won the Outstanding LA senior, and a National Award of Merit, coming back to the table beaming the second time.  Having run out of excuses to not hire me, Dick grudgingly said, I guess I'll see you Monday.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #95 on: July 27, 2020, 01:44:03 PM »
How would you describe the 7th at Tuckaway?

JBovay

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #96 on: July 27, 2020, 02:06:34 PM »
1. Aetna Springs - Tom Doak - par 4*
2. Ballyhack - Lester George - par 5
4. World Woods Pine Barrens - Tom Fazio - par 5
5. Boston GC - Gil Hanse - par 4
6. Keney Park - Matt Dusenberry - par 3
8. Cabot Links - Rod Whitman - par 5
10. Cabot Cliffs - Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw - par 5
11. TPC Sawgrass - Pete Dye - par 5
12. Royal New Kent - Mike Strantz - par 3**

* Yes, the course has been closed for a couple of years but it's one of the best openers I've ever played and still the only Doak design I've played. (Sorry, TD, I hope to play another soon.)
** This is probably more of a ?? than a !, but it epitomizes Strantz's creativity and boldness and the failure of the middle-of-nowhere housing development (+ golf course) known as Royal New Kent.
Have to disagree about #10 at Cabot Cliffs. IMO that is the worst of the six par 5s at Cliffs. The hole is too long for almost anyone to reach and the ravine short of the green requires a layup in the same spot no matter where you hit your drive. I prefer to play that hole by hitting my second shot down the first fairway to the first forward tee. Then you don’t have to worry about the ravine and it is usually an easier shot into the green.

Wayne, surely you benefit from having played the hole multiple times. If the hole typically plays as you say, then I agree that it's not a great design. But I don't think that giving the player the option to go down another fairway should disqualify it--see 14 at St. Andrews and other holes there.

I thought the second shot was the most thrilling on the property, plus players have the option to lay up or bail out to the right. (When I played, the ground was so firm that I was able to get a 5-iron pin high, but I didn't go at the flag because I didn't think I could hold a 4-iron or hybrid on the green.)

Perhaps we should say that it's a hole that works well only from the right set of tees?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #97 on: July 27, 2020, 03:51:15 PM »
How would you describe the 7th at Tuckaway?


JK,  as you may or may not know, I did a master plan for TCC a few years ago, being hired because they figured although I wasn't with them when they designed it, maybe I would understand their thought process more than most and try to preserve their basic style.  (Which I did, the improvements focused on bunkers, drainage, irrigation, forward tees, but no greens were touched)


All that said, I had a laugh when we got around to 7.  I told them there was no doubt the rolly poly green was a Ken Killian special, perhaps even hurried to completion when Dick wasn't around, something I saw a few times in my 7 years there.  As to the fairway, they saddled it out to give and idea where the center was, but now that tee shots are 60 yards longer, it has become obsolete, with the contours funneling balls to the right trees, not unlike a reverse camber hole discussed elsewhere.  In this case, the club liked the quirk (and the help the local knowledge gave them in inter club matches, I suppose) so it stayed too. 


I did call for relocating the green a bit and softening it for todays green speeds (which they maintain at 13)  Part of that was to correct something they always taught me to avoid - having the traffic funnel around a bunker, especially if it comes in and goes out to the front half of the green.  It was their first course on their own, perhaps they learned that later, or from the problems that hole caused.


Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #98 on: July 27, 2020, 04:08:37 PM »
Jeff,


What did you have for breakfast this morning cause you are knocking it out of the park!!! I gotta get me some.

mark chalfant

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Re: Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 50 Years - Collaborative Version
« Reply #99 on: July 27, 2020, 04:44:59 PM »
I just reached my maximum quota by adding the 160 yard ninth from Erin Hills!


I think Bobby Weed maybe underappreciated on this list. I am wondering if holes from either Glen Mills, White Manor or Olde Farm might be worthy of inclusion?


Santa Ana(2018) in Socal  and Common Ground near Denver also spring to mind.

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