Why is the 16th at Cypress Point great, beyond the setting?

[Ronald Montesano]

Is setting enough to make this hole great? Was Marion Hollins' womansplaining to Al, enough to make it great? I've not played it, not walked it, not photographed it, so I know nothing of the shot to the lay-up area, the space around the putting surface, the contours of the green.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yes....


But, also, I think the idea of the thrill of the heroic carry had been established by then (CBM Cape Hole) and they were just wise enough to realize that one of those would be perfect there.  Certainly more thrilling than the 5 iron layup/wedge short par 4.

[Jeff Schley]

I think the setting is enough at risk of being blasphemous by the GCA crowd. Kind of like seeing one of the old SI swimsuit issues and paying attention to the color of the bikinis. Does the color really matter?

[Ronald Montesano]

I think the setting is enough at risk of being blasphemous by the GCA crowd. Kind of like seeing one of the old SI swimsuit issues and paying attention to the color of the bikinis. Does the color really matter?

I don't get this analogy in the slightest. Putting surface, surrounds, option left are much more pertinent than color of a bikini.

[Sven Nilsen]

Mackenzie was not who Hollins had to convince.  The story starts with Raynor.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mackenzie was not who Hollins had to convince.  The story starts with Raynor.

Interesting thought.  Would Raynor, who probably never had an original design idea in his life (adapting the CBM templates over and over the best he could) be harder to convince?


What about Mac, who at that point, was not a great player (but who did get better later in life) but who was also an artist?


Just goes to show how different architects with different experiences might come to different conclusions on the same plot of ground.

[John Kavanaugh]

Any shot that you will be asked about when you return home is great. And when you know this before you pull the trigger you enter a rarified spot in the history of the game. Moriarty is a lot of varied things to many people but he will always be the guy who laid up on 16 to everyone.

[Ronald Montesano]

Any shot that you will be asked about when you return home is great. And when you know this before you pull the trigger you enter a rarified spot in the history of the game. Moriarty is a lot of varied things to many people but he will always be the guy who laid up on 16 to everyone.

Did he make par?


Also, your explanation is exactly why I posed the question. It's presumptive without substance. I'm after a helping or four of substance.

[Mark_Fine]

The setting is without question what makes #16 at CP special. The setting is what makes #15 special as well and the same goes for #18 at Pebble.  15 green has much more contour than 16 but it makes sense as it is a much easier tee shot.  Even the pros are simply trying to safely reach the putting surface on 16.  If you have ever played there especially in any kind of wind, completing the hole with the same ball is an accomplishment 😊

[Jeff Schley]

I think the setting is enough at risk of being blasphemous by the GCA crowd. Kind of like seeing one of the old SI swimsuit issues and paying attention to the color of the bikinis. Does the color really matter?

I don't get this analogy in the slightest. Putting surface, surrounds, option left are much more pertinent than color of a bikini.

Ron I don't know if you follow, but the setting is so beautiful for this hole (i.e. the swimsuit model on SI cover), that the components of the hole aren't nearly as important (color of the bikini). Again setting to many on here is cheating the pure architecture of a hole, but it is vital to be ranked as the most beautiful golf hole in the world. I can find great putting surfaces, surrounds and options elsewhere.

[Ian Mackenzie]

What I found particularly egregious about CPC is that simply horrible cluster of trees ringed by bunkers in the middle of the 17th fairway.


If this "feature" appeared on any other course, it would be lambasted and derided.


Yes, of course I hit my tee shot right into it...p-)...after I yelled to be boneheaded caddy to bring me my 3 wood as he left my driver oin the tee box and was 100 yards down-hole already.


"I only give driver on 17", he yelled back to me.
What an ass-hole was my parting thought.... ...just before swinging easly and putting my ball in jail. Double bogey ensued.

[Andrew Harvie]

I think the idea that a par 3 is both heroic & strategic is pretty darn cool

[John Kavanaugh]

Greatness does not come from how or why something was created. Greatness is derived from an objects existence.

[Kalen Braley]

Here's a few reasons:

1)  Heroic carry, over the ocean nonetheless.
2)  The aforementioned drop dead gorgeous terrain, its really hard to overstate the amazing beauty of the 17 mile drive area.
3)  The hole was found, not really created per se.
4)  The David option is right there for those who wish, its a very simple layup, even for a high capper.
5)  The waves crashing/pounding on the rocks.
6)  Very unique golf hole in its entirety.

[Marty Bonnar]

The Isthmus of Moriarty is a feature which should be replicated on every golf course.
F.

[Alex Miller]

Isn't the setting what dictates the layout of a hole/course? Can you imagine standing on the 16th tee before it was developed and seeing the spit of land where the green sits and NOT wanting to build that golf hole?


16 is a par 3.5 with a completely reasonable route to the green for those who can't muster the shot. Mackenzie enhanced the greensite with beautiful bunkering (would love to hear someone take issue with this, but I've never heard it criticized and the photos speak for themselves). The green is flatter than most at CPC, but lays naturally and is in balance in difficulty with the rest of the hole. No reason to draw from the spectacle that is that tee shot and it offers players a chance to walk off with a 3 and a badge of honor. Most don't though.

[Ira Fishman]

I think the idea that a par 3 is both heroic & strategic is pretty darn cool

+1. I knew trying the carry was probably stupid but I figured I would get to play it only once so went for it. If I played it regularly, it would present a dilemma every time especially if I had a good round going.


Ira

[Thomas Dai]

Nah bad!
atb

[Ronald Montesano]

"Ron I don't know if you follow, but the setting is so beautiful for this hole (i.e. the swimsuit model on SI cover), that the components of the hole aren't nearly as important (color of the bikini). Again setting to many on here is cheating the pure architecture of a hole, but it is vital to be ranked as the most beautiful golf hole in the world. I can find great putting surfaces, surrounds and options elsewhere."


Jeff...beauty has nothing to do with this thread. See the title...great. I want great.


"I don't get this analogy in the slightest" (my words) should have indicated to you that I did not follow.

[Ronald Montesano]

Ian...you do know that this thread is about the 16th hole, correct?


"Why is the 17th at Cypress so egregious, beyond the cluster of trees?" sounds like the beginning of a terrific, alternate thread.

[Ronald Montesano]

I played a hole like this at Tullymore, in Michigan. I played a few holes like this at Ross Bridge, in Alabama. Long-a$$ par 3 holes, heroic carry, beautiful in their own way.


I don't get the great, if there is no strategy. Memorable, fine. Beautiful, fine. Heroic, fine. Does all of that add up to great, without interesting recovery options, putting challenge?

[Alex Miller]

I played a hole like this at Tullymore, in Michigan. I played a few holes like this at Ross Bridge, in Alabama.

No you didn't.

[Ronald Montesano]

Explain to me why I didn't. Each of them had a forced carry over an inescapable hazard. Each of them had a lay-up area off to the side (I think...they might have been more penal.) The only difference was, I wasn't staring into eternity.

[Mark_Fine]

Ronald,
Some holes can’t be explained. They need to be experienced to really understand them.  If you haven’t seen in person or played the 16th CP you have no idea how good golf can get    As I tell everyone I have taken there, you want to walk very slowly when you play 15/16 as it is truly hallowed ground.
Mark

[Garland Bayley]

You can play the hole from the championship tees even if you can only carry the ball 80 yards in the air. You can play to the fairway from the championship tees easily with a 130 yard carry. You can play the entire hole with your putter, and probably score as well or better than taking aim at the green and not make it as that practically insures double bogey 5 or worse.

The redan, often cherished for being a strategic par 3, gives you two options. Fly on with high cut. Run on with low draw. Other shots don't generally improve your lot on the hole. While more strategic than most par 3s, it still falls far short of the strategic options available on the 16th at CP. These options can bring you to improved possibilities for the next shot, whereas the redan typically doesn't offer that.