[Tom_Doak]

No, not my choice, but Ran's:


https://golf.com/travel/dream-18-best-holes-last-44-years/


Of course, he kept it to 18 different architects to be politically correct, and by keeping the numbers the same for a true eclectic 18, it was inevitable he would have to make some unconventional choices to fill in the gaps.  And because it hasn't been done before, there was no peer pressure to select a few of the same holes everyone else does.


But I did not think he would come up with a list where I wouldn't have picked ANY of the same 18 holes myself.  I'm not certain if that's a good thing, or not. 

[Neil Regan]

I wonder how many such lists of comparable quality you could create,
before any hole was on multiple lists ?

[Kevin Pallier]

No love for anything from Australia or NZ? C'mon Ran ....

[Carl Rogers]

I would have guessed a hole from Streamsong somewhere in the mix.

[Peter Flory]

I wonder how many such lists of comparable quality you could create,
before any hole was on multiple lists ?

Dozens for sure. 


What is the significance of 44 years? 

[Peter Pallotta]

Ran has gotten extremely good at this; it's been fun to watch. Over the years he's become an ever-more polished writer and an increasingly effective advocate for golden age principles, and (it seems to me) has also considerably broadened his tastes and deepened his understanding of golf course architecture. And to me it all comes together beautifully here, one of the few such 'lists' I've ever really liked and appreciated -- in part because of the straightforward rationales he provides for his choices, and in part because those choices add up to the kind of 'ideal golf course' that's right up my alley. I thought it was just excellent -- so much so that I didn't even mind the one discordant note, ie the now-fashionable and ubiquitous and rather inauthentic-feeling celebration of public-access golf, as a sign of "progress". (In what sense?) To me it felt as if Ran was trying to make amends for and balance out his "147 custodians" -- which isn't necessary in any event, and plus we don't need a Man for All Seasons.

[Pete_Pittock]

I wonder how many such lists of comparable quality you could create,
before any hole was on multiple lists ?

Dozens for sure. 


What is the significance of 44 years?

First paragraph.  The World Atlas of Golf was published in 1976, 44 years ago.

[Ally Mcintosh]

No love for anything from Australia or NZ? C'mon Ran ....

Or the multiple links courses built by local architects rather than big names.


What about a Hackett or Ruddy hole? 2nd in Portsalon perhaps?


But Neil is surely right. You could have multiple lists before any of the same holes are chosen.

[Jeff Schley]

No love for anything from Australia or NZ? C'mon Ran ....

Kevin this is my feeling as well. No Tara Iti, Barnbougle, Cape Wickham?


Or Asia in general as well.  South Cape Owners Club in S Korea 14 or 16? Shaquin Bay in China closing stretch 14-18. Vietnam Bluff's Ho Tram Strip.


Middle East can offer Yas Links 9 or 18 IMO and Majilis course at Emirates GC where i like the closing 18th. Hard to capture all given the restrictions, but believe at least some of the above are deserving for reasons other than geographic diversity.Bluffs Ho Tram Strip

[Jeff Schley]

No love for anything from Australia or NZ? C'mon Ran ....

Or the multiple links courses built by local architects rather than big names.


What about a Hackett or Ruddy hole? 2nd in Portsalon perhaps?


But Neil is surely right. You could have multiple lists before any of the same holes are chosen.

Ally to this theme what about hole 12 at the European Club? Really like the 125 yard green by Pat Ruddy.

[MKrohn]

No love for anything from Australia or NZ? C'mon Ran ....

Or Sth Africa, looks like I will have to hope I can fly to the Northern Hemisphere to play a decent golf course.

[Thomas Dai]

Nice photos.
atb


PS - Non-UKer's might not get the reference but I'm kinda reminded of the satirical 'Not the Nine O'Clock News' sketch - "Nice video, shame about the song"!

[Ally Mcintosh]

No love for anything from Australia or NZ? C'mon Ran ....

Or the multiple links courses built by local architects rather than big names.


What about a Hackett or Ruddy hole? 2nd in Portsalon perhaps?


But Neil is surely right. You could have multiple lists before any of the same holes are chosen.

Ally to this theme what about hole 12 at the European Club? Really like the 125 yard green by Pat Ruddy.

Perhaps Jeff.


Picking the 16th on Ballybunion Cashen seemed a strange choice when there are 12 or 13 other Irish links built in the last 44 years. As individual courses, Ran may consider none of them world beaters but there are some of the best holes in GB&I within.


It was almost like he chose 18 architects first... and then went in search of the holes.


But as a bit of fun, I always like these kind of lists for magazine fodder. Better titled as an “Ideal” course rather than a “Best” though.

[David McIntosh]

No love for anything from Australia or NZ? C'mon Ran ....

Kevin this is my feeling as well. No Tara Iti, Barnbougle, Cape Wickham?

Or Asia in general as well.  South Cape Owners Club in S Korea 14 or 16? Shaquin Bay in China closing stretch 14-18. Vietnam Bluff's Ho Tram Strip.
Tram Strip

Jeff,

South Cape Owners Club is on the list but no.6 instead of the two holes you suggested.

I was surprised too that Tara Iti and Barnbougle didn’t appear but we’d no doubt be saying the same about the two Bandon courses selected if those weren’t on the list from Tom and C&C.

[David McIntosh]

But I did not think he would come up with a list where I wouldn't have picked ANY of the same 18 holes myself.  I'm not certain if that's a good thing, or not. 

Tom,

Out of interest, which hole of yours would you have picked for this list if not 13 at PD?

[Niall C]

“At Castle Stuart, Mark and I put an emphasis on the visuals of the site and the choices a golfer can make, and with its sweeping views and multitude of options, the 18th really encapsulates those beliefs.” – Gil Hanse
 
Ran certainly seems to have bought into the visuals judging by this list. An awful lot of the holes seem to be either slap bang beside the water or with the water as a backdrop as in the case of Castle Stuart. Was his choice of holes influenced by the impact the photos would make in his article perhaps ? 


Niall

[Tom_Doak]

But I did not think he would come up with a list where I wouldn't have picked ANY of the same 18 holes myself.  I'm not certain if that's a good thing, or not. 

Tom,

Out of interest, which hole of yours would you have picked for this list if not 13 at PD?

Actually, Ran called me a while back to ask if I thought it would be okay to use the 13th at High Pointe for this feature.  I said sure, that was a great hole, but people would think he was nuts if he passed over 13 at Pacific Dunes for a hole that's now back to native weeds.  Plus we didn't have a great photo of it.


I don't mean to play down how difficult this exercise can be:  I've tried to make an eclectic 18 using holes from 18 of my own courses, and it's maddening.  You are always tripping over some other hole you want to use or NEED to use because there are only two good candidates on another course you need to use . . . that is a huge problem with making such lists politically correct  [Pat Ward-Thomas did not throw out the 12th at Augusta or the 16th at Cypress Point because both were MacKenzie's.] 


For example, I do not think anyone would pick the 15th at Bandon Trails as the best hole Bill & Ben ever built:  if I was going to use a hole from Bandon Trails it would probably be the 4th, and most people would look to Sand Hills, first.  But, I am pretty fond of the 4th at Barnbougle Dunes, and you can't pick both of those, so you go with the third-best par-5 at Tobacco Road, instead!


If I was just trying to pick a hole I've built that would be worthy of a true world eclectic -- not just modern courses -- the choice would probably come down to one of these:


Barnbougle 4th or 7th
Ballyneal 7th or 12th
Cape Kidnappers 15th
St Andrews Beach 2nd
Pacific Dunes 6th or 16th

[Ben Stephens]

But I did not think he would come up with a list where I wouldn't have picked ANY of the same 18 holes myself.  I'm not certain if that's a good thing, or not. 

Tom,

Out of interest, which hole of yours would you have picked for this list if not 13 at PD?

Actually, Ran called me a while back to ask if I thought it would be okay to use the 13th at High Pointe for this feature.  I said sure, that was a great hole, but people would think he was nuts if he passed over 13 at Pacific Dunes for a hole that's now back to native weeds.  Plus we didn't have a great photo of it.


I don't mean to play down how difficult this exercise can be:  I've tried to make an eclectic 18 using holes from 18 of my own courses, and it's maddening.  You are always tripping over some other hole you want to use or NEED to use because there are only two good candidates on another course you need to use . . . that is a huge problem with making such lists politically correct  [Pat Ward-Thomas did not throw out the 12th at Augusta or the 16th at Cypress Point because both were MacKenzie's.] 


For example, I do not think anyone would pick the 15th at Bandon Trails as the best hole Bill & Ben ever built:  if I was going to use a hole from Bandon Trails it would probably be the 4th, and most people would look to Sand Hills, first.  But, I am pretty fond of the 4th at Barnbougle Dunes, and you can't pick both of those, so you go with the third-best par-5 at Tobacco Road, instead!


If I was just trying to pick a hole I've built that would be worthy of a true world eclectic -- not just modern courses -- the choice would probably come down to one of these:


Barnbougle 4th or 7th
Ballyneal 7th or 12th
Cape Kidnappers 15th
St Andrews Beach 2nd
Pacific Dunes 6th or 16th

SAB 2nd hole is a great hole IMO

[Ira Fishman]

But I did not think he would come up with a list where I wouldn't have picked ANY of the same 18 holes myself.  I'm not certain if that's a good thing, or not. 

Tom,

Out of interest, which hole of yours would you have picked for this list if not 13 at PD?

Actually, Ran called me a while back to ask if I thought it would be okay to use the 13th at High Pointe for this feature.  I said sure, that was a great hole, but people would think he was nuts if he passed over 13 at Pacific Dunes for a hole that's now back to native weeds.  Plus we didn't have a great photo of it.


I don't mean to play down how difficult this exercise can be:  I've tried to make an eclectic 18 using holes from 18 of my own courses, and it's maddening.  You are always tripping over some other hole you want to use or NEED to use because there are only two good candidates on another course you need to use . . . that is a huge problem with making such lists politically correct  [Pat Ward-Thomas did not throw out the 12th at Augusta or the 16th at Cypress Point because both were MacKenzie's.] 


For example, I do not think anyone would pick the 15th at Bandon Trails as the best hole Bill & Ben ever built:  if I was going to use a hole from Bandon Trails it would probably be the 4th, and most people would look to Sand Hills, first.  But, I am pretty fond of the 4th at Barnbougle Dunes, and you can't pick both of those, so you go with the third-best par-5 at Tobacco Road, instead!


If I was just trying to pick a hole I've built that would be worthy of a true world eclectic -- not just modern courses -- the choice would probably come down to one of these:


Barnbougle 4th or 7th
Ballyneal 7th or 12th
Cape Kidnappers 15th
St Andrews Beach 2nd
Pacific Dunes 6th or 16th

I have played only PD from that list, but those are two all world holes. I don’t think 16 tops 16 at CPC, but I have not played a better 6th hole although Lahinch and Old White are awfully good.


Ira

[Tom_Doak]

I have played only PD from that list, but those are two all world holes. I don’t think 16 tops 16 at CPC,

I don't either!  I was just naming it as one of my best holes.

[Matt_Cohn]

In terms of this being an actual golf course, 17 seems similar to 1. Am I incorrect?

[Will Lozier]

Too bad the video wasn't edited properly with the same pic of Kiawah for the 10th at Gamble Sands! 

[Ira Fishman]

I have played only PD from that list, but those are two all world holes. I don’t think 16 tops 16 at CPC,

I don't either!  I was just naming it as one of my best holes.

Tom,


At the risk of being labeled a sycophant, of the other two courses I have played, I found 7th at Old Mac and 8 at Streamsong Blue to be all world although OM 7 may be overly dependent on the setting.


I agree that although an excellent hole, 15 at Bandon Trails is not C&C best on even the few I have played. I prefer 13 on BT in what is a great stretch of holes. And I think 4 and 15 at Streamsong Red are all world. And although I didn't particularly like the course, numbers 5 and 17 at Kapalua Plantation are better than BT 15.


Ira

[Wayne_Kozun]

Best second hole should have been Cabot Cliffs.

[Tom_Doak]

Best second hole should have been Cabot Cliffs.

I don't concur, but to me it's just surprising that there are no consensus favorites for any of the choices, even with all of the attempts by golf courses to promote their "signature hole" over the years.  The flood of photographs and marketing materials has drowned out any favorites.  The only hole at Bandon that would be a consensus favorite as the best on that course is #16 at Bandon Dunes, and of course #16 at Cabot Cliffs has been shown a million times, but neither of those made Ron's list, either.

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