[Jay Flemma]

I am given to understand that Vesper Velvet, contrary to reports, is not a James Bond heroine.  Instead, it was a quite enjoyable playing surface. I did hear some stories from numerous sources about various strains and a colorful fellow named Manny Frances (sp?) Threads here at GCA are pretty quiet about it in the last few years. Are there still many courses that have it or a strain of it such as Lake Sunapee Velvet or such?

[John Emerson]

I have putted and managed older cultivars of velvet bentgrass in my days working at the Univ of Kentuckys turfgrass research facility.  It was an amazing surface, that really shined in cooler months.  Not too sure about these newer varieties and how they hold up to heat stress, traffic, disease etc..


Here is great article about velvet bentgrass and its evolution, and place for turf.  It is a bit old and there may be some new research out there about this.  Ill look into the database to see if any recent research has taken place.


https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/research--velvet-touch/

[John Emerson]

After doing a really quick look into the literature, the majority of the research has been conducted in Europe or elsewhere over the past 5 years.  This could suggest a couple things.  The popularity of the turf for putting greens is still pretty low in USA.  The market for using Velvet bents is small.  The environments are not conducive to long term quality surfaces.  And, not to mention, marketing by the seed manufactures plays a BIG part in all this.  Even though some of the research suggest Velvet bentgrass is good choice for a putting surface especially in the northern part of the USA its still not widely accepted.  In the USA there are far less areas of the country that could potentially grow this grass successfully.  I am sure that there are many supers/clubs in the USA that would benefit from planting velvet bentgrass, but nobody wants to be the "first".  Greens cultivars/species are a lot like architecture trends...when one place does it successfully then everyone follows suit.  Not many clubs have followed suit as of now.  That could change I suppose with the right marketing.
Most of the greens in Scotland are seeded with a mix of majority fine fescues (red, sheep, chewing etc) with some colonial and velvet bentgrasses mixed in.  The idea of adding in bents to the greens mix is to help out compete Poa infestations by closing the turf canopy in between the fine fescue clumps. This is why those guys on the other side of the pond are constantly seeding fescue into the greens.   Ball roll seems to be much better with the fine fescues and velvet/colonial bents mixed in than with our current creeping bentgrasses alone.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Shelter Harbor has velvent bentgrass


https://www.environmentalscience.bayer.us/turf-and-ornamentals-management/golf-course-management/portfolios-and-solutions/stressgard-testimonials/shelter-harbor-golf-club


https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/shelter-harbor-new-england-golf/

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I once knew a girl named Vesper Lynd. She betrayed me...


As for velvet bent, Beard's Turfgrass: Science and Culture states that the quality is "exquisite" but the spreading rate is slower than creeping bent, and the "establishment rate and recuperative ability are relatively poor." So ballmarks, cup cutter plugs, and general wear and tear would seem to be a problem. It prefers "acidic, infertile soils" and only really does well in such soils in New England. As for the Vesper varietal, I know very little, but if regular creeping bent is traditionally more durable and well-adapted to a range of conditions, it will likely stay superior, especially given the vast breeding efforts of stolonifera over canina.

So if you are on a sandy site in New England with huge greens, it might be the play...

[Tom_Doak]

Tom B:


It is true that velvet bent is very fragile compared to the newer cultivars of creeping bent.  But did you ever think that maybe it would be different if the university turf programs around the country had put more research dollars into developing cultivars of velvet bent?


But they never did that sort of research, as they never did it for fine fescue.  The reason is that there was no money in it for the companies that fund a lot of university research.  I could not believe how hostile the turf professors from Michigan State were when I tried to promote fescue fairways and greens in northern Michigan . . . I was still too young to understand where their lucrative side gigs came from.

[Bret Lawrence]

Birchwood Country Club, a nine-hole private course in Westport, CT has pure velvet bent greens.  These velvet bent greens are the smoothest surface I have ever putted on.  It was like putting on a freshly felted professional billiards table.


There are greens throughout the state of Connecticut with patches of velvet bent, but I rarely find pure velvet like they have at Birchwood.  Many courses used to have velvet bent like Ekwanok, Brookline, Brae-Burn, Siwanoy (I’m not sure if they still do)  I think just about anywhere William Mitchell or one of his brothers worked you can find remnants of velvet bent. William Mitchell had three brothers and they were all green superintendents responsible for the experimental turf farm in Lake Sunapee, New Hampshire.  The Mitchell’s father worked at Kernwood and the velvet bent they propagated on their experimental turf farm in NH was known as Kernwood Velvet. The Mitchell’s marketed velvet bent in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s. 


Orrin Smith’s courses in Connecticut such as Birchwood were started with velvet bents.  Woodbridge and Highfield both in CT, used to have pure velvet bent greens as well. Woodbridge is now closed and the Highfield greens are mottled with velvet and a newer creeping variety. Orrin Smith and William Mitchell worked together for several years, so this may explain Orrin Smith’s use of velvets in New England.


The original velvet bents came from German mixed bent varieties which were typically made up of Velvet, Creeping and Colonial bent. The velvets that thrived seemed to be from the Northern Mass, New Hampshire/Vermont region.  These courses were planted with German mixed bent and the velvets out competed the other varieties in this region.  This led to the Mitchell’s starting their farm in order to develop pure velvet bent.  If there are any studies on velvet bent you would likely find them when the Mitchell’s were alive.  O.J. Noer/Milorganite photo database on the MSU Turfgrass Archives has a lot of old pictures of courses with velvet bent greens.  Perhaps O.J. Noer did some research on the topic?

[Pete Lavallee]

Wasn’t Vesper Velvet a specific type of velvet bent grass that was found at Vesper CC, on the Merrimack River just west of Lowell Mass?

[Jim_Coleman]

    I think Winchester CC near Boston had it years ago. Not sure if Jim Nagle’s redo changed that.

[Tom Bagley]

Vesper Velvet was a specific type of bent grass developed by Manny Francis, the superintendent at Vesper Country Club.  It was quite popular in Massachusetts and can still be found on many putting surfaces of older clubs - usually in concert with other forms of bent grass and poa.  You can see patches of it at my home clubs Concord Country Club and Oak Hill Country Club.  Belmont Country Club was well know for its Vesper Velvet greens - as, of course, was Vesper CC.
 
https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/gcnew/article/1989dec9.pdf

[John Emerson]

Tom B:


It is true that velvet bent is very fragile compared to the newer cultivars of creeping bent.  But did you ever think that maybe it would be different if the university turf programs around the country had put more research dollars into developing cultivars of velvet bent?


But they never did that sort of research, as they never did it for fine fescue.  The reason is that there was no money in it for the companies that fund a lot of university research.  I could not believe how hostile the turf professors from Michigan State were when I tried to promote fescue fairways and greens in northern Michigan . . . I was still too young to understand where their lucrative side gigs came from.

This.  Many times the seed companies give money to the Universities to run trials on seed they have bred "in house" to get the "street cred" for any potential cultivars that could be successful in the turf management world.  Universities are seen as unbiased as opposed to the seed company producing their own trial results.  They went balls to the wall on creeping bentgrass varieties that we know today.  I remember in the mid-late 90's and into the 00's that it seemed like a new variety of bentgrass was coming out every other month.  Now, recently, we have seen a similar trend with the berumda cultivars (seeded and sprigged).

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Tom B:


It is true that velvet bent is very fragile compared to the newer cultivars of creeping bent.  But did you ever think that maybe it would be different if the university turf programs around the country had put more research dollars into developing cultivars of velvet bent?


But they never did that sort of research, as they never did it for fine fescue.  The reason is that there was no money in it for the companies that fund a lot of university research.  I could not believe how hostile the turf professors from Michigan State were when I tried to promote fescue fairways and greens in northern Michigan . . . I was still too young to understand where their lucrative side gigs came from.

Tom D (just got the book it looks amazing!): I completely agree. If all the research dollars were poured into velvet instead of creeping, the velvet varietals today would likely be much better overall. However, if back then it was observed that creeping was adapted to a range of climates/soils/regions etc., yet velvet was only adapted to a narrow range, then what was the rational choice as far as research dollar allocations?


As for fescue, I'm with you again, with a caveat. I putted Old Mac's greens in 2010 and they were phenomenal. However, I have a hard time believing that greens height fescue would have any chance against poa infestation in North America over time. Can anyone comment as to the populations of fescue vs. poa annua at Pacific Dunes? We know how Chambers Bay worked out and they converted to poa, Ballyneal to bent. My theory is when poa starts infesting a fescue green, the result is a playing surface that is much worse than when poa starts making inroads in a bent green. That's when the kvetching starts, and the inputs (fertilizer, water) start creeping upward, exacerbating the problem. That's not to say I disagree with your desire to have a uniform playing surface from tee to green, I share in that ideal. However the real is this: Nowhere in the US is climactically similar to the UK where fescue greens thrive under an absurdly austere input environment relative to the US. What we have seen be successful, and this should be viewed as a win, is fescue as a fairway grass with bent greens. Kingsley Club, Ballyneal, The Loop as examples.


When they find life on other planets, it will be poa annua.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom B:


I agree with you about the problems with fescue greens, generally, in America, although I am excited to see whether one of the best greenkeepers I know can keep them going for longer than the norm at Tara Iti.  [Bandon certainly gets too much rain in the winter for the Poa annua not to come in over time; Tara Iti does not.]


I am not a "purist" when it comes to turf -- i.e., I don't care if it's a monostand or not, and I don't care what it looks like, I just care if it's a really good playing surface.  My only problem with bent greens and fescue fairways / surrounds is that the bent creeps outward and once you've got five feet of bent around the green at collar height, you've lost that seamless transition that was so magical in the first 6-8 years in Bandon and elsewhere.  I made a visit to Dismal River not long ago and I advised them just to start cutting the greens bigger, so that they were mowing the majority of the bentgrass at green height.

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