[Wayne_Kozun]

@Mike_Baillie - IMO the biggest omissions from that list, at least of those that were around at the time, are Mount Bruno, and Weston.  The two Cabot courses should surely be in the top 5, and there may be other courses built in the last 15 years that belong on the list.  I haven't played Summit but I would think that perhaps it should be on the list.

[Mike Baillie]

Wayne, as you know from my previous post, IMO the Ben/Ian/Jeff/Robert list from 2005 (giving them a mulligan to slot in the Cabots & Muskoka Bay perhaps) is more reflective of Canada's Best Courses NOW than Score's list the last few weeks.

I too like Weston.  Not the only factor for me but often the more different the better - some use the word quirky.  So I like courses such as Lookout, St Thomas, Scarboro, Weston more than the too often predictable layout.  North Berwick is at the top.  Not sure why the 4 gents didn't have Weston up there but they did have Lookout and Mount Bruno in their 3 HMs.  I have no Mt Bruno knowledge.  Also not sure of Summit.  Given they liked Westmount/Brantford/ St Thomas they also likely admire Summit.  Perhaps in the 2005 timeframe it was in the midst of the Carrick re-design of several holes.  The best thing there is some desire from that group to update their list.  You, I and others would appreciate it.

Finally, with Ben's comment and your data - Canada has more courses than NY and CA combined- perhaps a better question would have been do the English debate which course is 73rd versus 88th?  They have both better courses at the top and more depth than we do. I have only played two superb ones - RSG Sandwich and RCP Deal.

[Tom_Doak]

Canada 2,633 36,591 2,265

I am amazed there are that many golf courses in Canada, considering the short season country-wide, and the low population density outside of Ontario and Vancouver.  I guess you guys really really like golf.


Also, what are the second and third numbers?  Total golf holes and total number of facilities? 

[Wayne_Kozun]

@Tom - Yes it is number of courses, number of holes, humber of facilities.  It isn't clear what is included in facilities - does it include ranges? 


Yes we do like golf and have a lot ot courses per person.  Sweden is similar with a short season and lots of golf courses.  Sweden has 662 courses vs 497 in Spain, despite the shorter season and colder climate.

[Andrew Harvie]

In regards to the top 100, it's a luke warm list without much to cheer about.


Courses far too low:


-Kawartha
-Wolf Creek Old
-Lookout Point
-Riverside (SK)
-Rosedale
-Wolf Creek Links
-Essex
-Calgary
-St. Thomas
-Summit
-Blackhawk
-Toronto


Courses that should be off the list:


-Wildstone
-Copper Point
-Kananaskis Mount Lorette
-Glen Abbey
-Nicklaus North
-Predator Ridge (Predator)
-Northern Bear
-Chateau Whistler
-Black Bear Ridge
-Windermere (AB)
-Glencoe
-Stewart Creek
-Big Sky


Courses that should be on the list:


-The Nest at Friday Harbour (Doug Carrick's most recent effort that's shockingly good)
-Kelowna Golf & Country Club (Originally AV Macan, now with a lot of Jeff Mingay putting it back)
-Tarandowah
-Waterton Lakes (cool Stanley Thompson that's the forgotten stepchild to Banff & Jasper)
-Lakeview (Herbert Strong with some of the best greens in Canada)
-Toronto Hunt (let the debate ensue if 9 holers can be included)
-Talking Rock
-Marine Drive (AV Macan on less than 95 acres!)
-Islington Golf Club (Thompson/Ian Andrew)
-Fairview Mountain
-Dakota Dunes
-Mickelson National (not eligible but will be on in 2022, by my guess knowing SCORE raters debuting in the top 10)
-Vancouver Golf Club
-Roseland (Ross in Windsor)


Canada has a lot of good stuff but you have to look much harder because the list glorifies a lot of modern so-so "pretty" golf courses and resort towns in the West because nobody wants to go to Saskatchewan for a golf trip.


I think because most of the raters are Ontario based too they get stuck with "flashy" or "shiny" objects, like National or Memphremagog. they're both good golf courses, but neither would be in my top 15 (and they both currently are on SCORE's). When someone goes to a Tarandowah for $45 but it's as close to pure links inland as I've ever seen with a wicked set of greens, they may not like it because it's rugged and on a flat piece of ground, for the most part.


I've always dreamt of putting together a small panel of 20-25 knowledgable people in Canada and discussing it over Zoom or after a couple rounds of golf in a conference style setup to determine the order. It would be really interesting to see what comes up, as I'm sure there'd be a lot of surprises.


As for Blackhawk being a Doak 4, that's highly questionable. It's among the 4 best modern courses in Canada, with two other Whitman creations. Its borderline top 10 in the country with Sagebrush being MIA.

[Tom_Doak]

@Tom - Yes it is number of courses, number of holes, humber of facilities.  It isn't clear what is included in facilities - does it include ranges? 


Yes we do like golf and have a lot ot courses per person.  Sweden is similar with a short season and lots of golf courses.  Sweden has 662 courses vs 497 in Spain, despite the shorter season and colder climate.

"Facilities" would not include stand-alone ranges, or the number would be higher than golf courses, not lower.


Michigan is another of those places that makes up for the short season with long days.  We have 600 courses, or did before the financial crisis, so I guess it's not that hard to see 4x that number in all of Canada.

[Tom_Doak]

Courses that should be on the list:

-The Nest at Friday Harbour (Doug Carrick's most recent effort that's shockingly good)
-Kelowna Golf & Country Club (Originally AV Macan, now with a lot of Jeff Mingay putting it back)
-Tarandowah
-Waterton Lakes (cool Stanley Thompson that's the forgotten stepchild to Banff & Jasper)
-Lakeview (Herbert Strong with some of the best greens in Canada)
-Toronto Hunt (let the debate ensue if 9 holers can be included)
-Talking Rock
-Marine Drive (AV Macan on less than 95 acres!)
-Islington Golf Club (Thompson/Ian Andrew)
-Fairview Mountain
-Dakota Dunes
-Mickelson National (not eligible but will be on in 2022, by my guess knowing SCORE raters debuting in the top 10)
-Vancouver Golf Club
-Roseland (Ross in Windsor)

I have only heard of about half of these, so indeed, your fellow Canadians are not doing a great job of getting the word out about such places.  I had to go look up where Toronto Hunt Club is -- I'm surprised Lorne Rubenstein did not take me there.


But ultimately that is the limitation of rankings.  Raters feel like they have to give every big-budget new course a respectable score -- for many, that's a 5 or a 6 on the Doak scale, and yes, I am sometimes guilty of that myself -- and once there are enough of them that someone or other really likes, they crowd out all the cool little places.  Fortunately a book like The Confidential Guide can highlight such places and convey their character in a few words so people will seek them out over another respectable championship course.


You did not mention Mt. Bruno in any of your lists but as far as cool places go, it's got to be pretty high up there.

[Andrew Harvie]

Courses that should be on the list:

-The Nest at Friday Harbour (Doug Carrick's most recent effort that's shockingly good)
-Kelowna Golf & Country Club (Originally AV Macan, now with a lot of Jeff Mingay putting it back)
-Tarandowah
-Waterton Lakes (cool Stanley Thompson that's the forgotten stepchild to Banff & Jasper)
-Lakeview (Herbert Strong with some of the best greens in Canada)
-Toronto Hunt (let the debate ensue if 9 holers can be included)
-Talking Rock
-Marine Drive (AV Macan on less than 95 acres!)
-Islington Golf Club (Thompson/Ian Andrew)
-Fairview Mountain
-Dakota Dunes
-Mickelson National (not eligible but will be on in 2022, by my guess knowing SCORE raters debuting in the top 10)
-Vancouver Golf Club
-Roseland (Ross in Windsor)

I have only heard of about half of these, so indeed, your fellow Canadians are not doing a great job of getting the word out about such places.  I had to go look up where Toronto Hunt Club is -- I'm surprised Lorne Rubenstein did not take me there.


But ultimately that is the limitation of rankings.  Raters feel like they have to give every big-budget new course a respectable score -- for many, that's a 5 or a 6 on the Doak scale, and yes, I am sometimes guilty of that myself -- and once there are enough of them that someone or other really likes, they crowd out all the cool little places.  Fortunately a book like The Confidential Guide can highlight such places and convey their character in a few words so people will seek them out over another respectable championship course.


You did not mention Mt. Bruno in any of your lists but as far as cool places go, it's got to be pretty high up there.

The only reason I did not mention Mt Bruno is I have not been! There's three major holes in my Canadian resume: Victoria/Colwood, Montreal (except for Memprhemagog, which is a weird one to have already), and Nova Scotia. Also missing some ones around Ontario like Cataraqui, Weston and Redtail.


But you are right. I just wish we had a better reflection of Canadian golf. If someone played Mount Kidd, for example, at 19th, they'd think it was okay, but would never seek anything below it, when in reality it's at least 80 spots too high. It certainly doesn't help our case

[Tom_Doak]

The only reason I did not mention Mt Bruno is I have not been!

You need to become friends with the president of your local bank . . . if he is tight with the CEO, you're halfway there!   

[Ronald Montesano]

If you don't now Andrew Harvie (and I don't yet, either, beyond the virtual) his work is on display on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/drewharvie/?hl=en) and his site (https://beyondthecontour.com/) Fine addition to our discussion board.

[Andrew Harvie]

The only reason I did not mention Mt Bruno is I have not been!

You need to become friends with the president of your local bank . . . if he is tight with the CEO, you're halfway there!   

Ha, I have a friend at Bruno, they're just members only still because of COVID. Once they open up, I'll be over there asap

[Wayne_Kozun]

If you don't now Andrew Harvie (and I don't yet, either, beyond the virtual) his work is on display on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/drewharvie/?hl=en) and his site (https://beyondthecontour.com/) Fine addition to our discussion board.

And here https://p6rgolf.com/blog

[Andrew Harvie]

Well, thank you guys for the warm welcome. I'm excited to be here!

[Mike_Clayton]

Here is the Aussie Top 100 from Golf Australia.  I have never been golfing in Australia so I am not qualified to judge the relative merits of the depth of this list vs ScoreGolf:
https://www.golfaustralia.com.au/feature/ranking-australias-top-100-courses-for-2020-537630/page0

Wayne,
I've never played in Canada and was going to ask someone who has seen a lot of golf in both Canada and Australia now it compares.


This top 10 list is very fair and represents a lot of great golf - way better than the top 10 Australian list offered up in 1980.

[Jamie Pyper]

Mike,
[/size]I won't admit to playing "a lot" of golf in Australia, but as a Canadian reading your top course list it occurred to me that I've played just as many top 10 courses in your country (6) as my own! A least this years list. Its hard to compare as Canada has such diversity in its top level golf offerings, from the links of the Cabot twins, to the parkland tracks in southern Ontario, to mountain classics like Banff and Jasper. We have the longest coastline in the world but only a small fraction of that is suitable for golf ( at least for a few more years) whereas sand based coastal golf in Australia is second to none. Your links style golf is far more evolved that ours. I'm envious of your sandbelt which is non-existent in any of our metro areas. Played RM, Victoria and Kingston Heath in the scorching 40 degree heat that we never get here. I couldn't wait for the cooler breezes of Barnbougle that followed. 
[/size]

[Matt Bosela]

Drew - you've made the big-time!  Glad to have you here...your enthusiasm and knowledge is welcomed.


As for the Score list, I've said this on Twitter but the thing I take away, especially after seeing the "Next Top 40" that complimented the main top 100 list, is that Score needs to supplement their panel with more people in the Prairie provinces.  If all of the Ontario or West Coast raters aren't going to make the effort to see courses in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, they need to look in-province to get that coverage.


There is only one course from Saskatchewan within the top 140 (Riverside) and no courses from Manitoba?? Courses like Dakota Dunes obviously aren't qualifying due to a lack of visits and there are at least a few courses in Manitoba that deserve this recognition as well.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I just listened to a podcast where Jason Logan talks about the ratings.  In order to be eligible a course must have ten ratings within the last five years.  Maybe they need to expand the list to include a few more people from the prairies and from the Atlantic provinces.  The only courses on the list from Atlantic Canada are resort courses that attract people from the rest of the country, like Cabot, HL, Crowbush, Algonquin and Humber Valley.  There aren't any "local" courses from that part of the country.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Finally, with Ben's comment and your data - Canada has more courses than NY and CA combined- perhaps a better question would have been do the English debate which course is 73rd versus 88th?  They have both better courses at the top and more depth than we do. I have only played two superb ones - RSG Sandwich and RCP Deal.

You make some good points and not only does England have more depth and better courses at the top but so dothe two states you mention -  of NY & Cali.  If you compared the Score list to the best in state for NY & Cali then I am guessing that Canada would come out on the bottom.  Is that because our natural sites are not as good, or is it something like a lack of imagination in building courses?  That being said, many of the best courses in NY are concentrated in wonderful land for golf on LI and many of California's in Monterey.


Regarding England - I think the thing about England is that makes England better in terms of golf courses is that they have a large number of very good or great courses built in the Golden Era.  I am guessing that if you compared a list of courses built in the post-WWII era that Canada would win that competition, for what that is worth.  Don't forget that the population of Canada was about 9M in 1925 vs about 36M in England.  So at that time they had 4X as many people.  Now that ratio is about 1.5X.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mike,
I won't admit to playing "a lot" of golf in Australia, but as a Canadian reading your top course list it occurred to me that I've played just as many top 10 courses in your country (6) as my own! A least this years list. Its hard to compare as Canada has such diversity in its top level golf offerings, from the links of the Cabot twins, to the parkland tracks in southern Ontario, to mountain classics like Banff and Jasper. We have the longest coastline in the world but only a small fraction of that is suitable for golf ( at least for a few more years) whereas sand based coastal golf in Australia is second to none. Your links style golf is far more evolved that ours. I'm envious of your sandbelt which is non-existent in any of our metro areas. Played RM, Victoria and Kingston Heath in the scorching 40 degree heat that we never get here. I couldn't wait for the cooler breezes of Barnbougle that followed. 

Jamie,


Thanks - if you come back here let me know. And, I look foreword to getting to Canada at some point. I had a Canadian caddy for a while who was great fun. Lorne Duncan, whose grandfather was a greenkeeper at Banff.

[Andrew Harvie]

There's a roundtable discussion tomorrow on the Top 100 in Canada with Ian Leggatt (ex-PGA TOUR/Summit DoG, Clayts you might know him), Richard Zokol (sagebrush co-designer, also ex-PGA TOUR) and Lori Kane.


It's not who I'd pick, but I guess it'll be interesting to hear them talk. I would've preferred guys like Ben CD, Robert Thompson and Ian Andrew, but it is what it is.

[Daryl David]

Ian Leggatt thinks National Golf Club of Canada is in the top 50 in the world and the best in the country, so if not anything else, it'll be an interesting listen.

Oh my. I guess drug testing isn’t required for the panel. 

[Andrew Harvie]

The discussion can be found on Golf Town’s Facebook page (main sponsor). It’s interesting. I wish they would’ve given them an hour to talk instead of 20 minutes

[Daryl David]

Definitely no drug testing. In fact drugs must have been provided to the panel. 

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