[Daryl David]

Here is the Aussie Top 100 from Golf Australia.  I have never been golfing in Australia so I am not qualified to judge the relative merits of the depth of this list vs ScoreGolf:
https://www.golfaustralia.com.au/feature/ranking-australias-top-100-courses-for-2020-537630/page0

If you match up the 21 to 30 ranked from the Canada list to the Australia list, Victoria is only Canadian track that remotely comes close to besting its counterpart on the OZ list. The rest of the matchups are one sided. Not a fair fight.


30. Bonnie Doon vs Tobiano
29. The Dunes Club vs Stewart Creek
28. Commonwealth vs Predator Ridge-Ridge
27. Newcastle vs London Hunt
26. Royal Queensland vs Goodwin GC
25. Royal Canberra vs Devils Pulpit
24. Thirteenth Beach vs Big Sky
23. The National-Old vs Humber Valley
22. Kooyonga GC vs Coppinwood
21. Lake Karrinyup vs Victoria





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[Jeff_Mingay]

Interesting comparison, Daryl.

[Pete_Pittock]

I'd pick the maple leaf side in match 25

[Wayne_Kozun]

This grouping of courses just reinforces how little great golf we have in Canada

I mean, all good courses there (Victoria is special), but c’mon.

I agree, unfortunately. Which, again, speaks to the fact that this should be a top-50, max. Probably 25.

I think there is value in having larger lists for discussion purposes, if nothing else.  This list also can give some insight into interesting courses to play when you are going to be away from home.  For example, if I am going to Ottawa and want to play golf - which courses should I play?  I can look at the list and choose courses like Ottawa Hunt, Royal Ottawa, etc.  It can also give you some insight if you live in a city like Toronto and are looking to join a private club and there are a lot of options.  How do you compare the quality of the 15-20 or so private courses in the Toronto area that would be ranked that you may consider joining.  This list has a lot of drawbacks, but at least it is a starting point.
 There aren't a ton of Canadian courses in the Confidential Guide so it is useful to have some references on this.

And I do think that there are other courses even lower on the list that are worth playing.  The Score ranking panel seems to like some of the newer courses that dominated places 21-30 in these rankings.  But courses like Essex, Scarboro, Cataraqui, Mount Bruno, Cherry Hill, Lookout Point, St. Thomas, Summit, etc are still worth playing and many golfers would not know about them if not for these lists?  Many of the older private courses don't have much of a public web presence so it is hard to find out about them.

[Tom_Doak]

 There aren't a ton of Canadian courses in the Confidential Guide so it is useful to have some references on this.

And I do think that there are other courses even lower on the list that are worth playing.  The Score ranking panel seems to like some of the newer courses that dominated places 21-30 in these rankings.  But courses like Essex, Scarboro, Cataraqui, Mount Bruno, Cherry Hill, Lookout Point, St. Thomas, Summit, etc are still worth playing and many golfers would not know about them if not for these lists?  Many of the older private courses don't have much of a public web presence so it is hard to find out about them.

It's true we don't have that many Canadian courses, yet I went to pretty much all of the courses that any of my references said I might consider to be a 6 on the Doak Scale, except for a couple of the new and very private ones.  And I did get to all of the courses you listed here, except for Cherry Hill and Summit.

[Wayne_Kozun]

It looks like Darius went to Summit as it is in the book.


FYI, the only courses in the top 40 of the Score list not in the Guide are Humber Valley (which is kind of remote), Goodwood, Coppinwood, Predator Ridge, Stewart Creek and Osprey Valley - Hoot.  Those are all newer courses.


There are some curious courses that are in the Guide, like Don Valley and Uplands.


When the top 20 is published I will show a comparison of the Doak rating and Score ranking.

[Tom_Doak]

There are some curious courses that are in the Guide, like Don Valley and Uplands.

I visited 10-12 courses with Lorne Rubenstein in 1991 -- wherever he wanted to take me, which included those two.  Uplands was very special to him.

[Wayne_Kozun]

That's not surprising as I believe that Lorne grew up playing Uplands, and Don Valley is kind of the working person's muni course in Toronto that is on the subway line.  That also explains Maple Downs as that is Lorne's home club in more recent years, although back in 1991 he may have still been a member at the National.

[Kevin Pallier]

That's true Matt, but outside of the US and UK do any countries have that much depth?  It would be interesting to compare these ten courses with the courses ranked 21-30 in Ireland and Australia.

Wayne

I haven't seen many courses in Canada yet (I hope to rectify that post COVID) but Australia is an interesting comparison.

Canada has 3 courses currently ranked in the World Top100
Cabot Cliffs
Cabot Links
St. George's
- the Top2 were built in the last 20 years

Australia has 8 courses currently ranked in the World Top100
Royal Melbourne (West)
Kingston Heath
Barnbougle (Dunes)
New South Wales GC
Cape Wickham
Ellerston
Barnbougle (Lost Farm)
Royal Melbourne (East)
- 5 were built in the last 20 years

I'll be interested to see the mix of the final list you provide. I'm a panellist for Australian Golf Digest and it depends on one's definition of "modern" but here's an interesting take on AGD's list.

Of it's current Top100
- 56 courses were built post 1980
- Of that, 28 were built post 2000

[Wayne_Kozun]

Thanks for that info Kevin.  There are a few other courses in Canada that occasionally make the world top 100, such as Jasper, Banff and Highlands Links.  Those courses are all 7.5 on the Doak Scale or higher.  Also at 7.75 is Capilano.


That makes seven courses in Canada at 7.5 or higher on the Doak Scale as the three courses that you mentioned are all at 8.  Any idea how that compares to Oz?  (The fractional numbers come from averaging when more than one person has a rating for the course in the CG).

[Kevin Pallier]

Wayne

I've seen Jasper and Banff but not much else in Canada - as I said earlier my scope is limited at the moment.

To answer your Q's:
RMW is a 10 or 9 on most people's opinions
KH and BDunes are 9s IMO (Ran gave the latter a 10)
Virually all the others listed are 8's
Royal Adelaide, Lost Farm and National Moonah or Gunnamatta (I haven't seen the latter) are also probably 8's.
The courses regularly ranked 10-20 are in the main 7's.

So in summary:
Top10 in Aust = 8+
Top11-15 = 7s-8s
Top16-20 = 7s

[Wayne_Kozun]

Wayne

I've seen Jasper and Banff but not much else in Canada - as I said earlier my scope is limited at the moment.

To answer your Q's:
RMW is a 10 or 9 on most people's opinions
KH and BDunes are 9s IMO (Ran gave the latter a 10)
Virually all the others listed are 8's
Royal Adelaide, Lost Farm and National Moonah or Gunnamatta (I haven't seen the latter) are also probably 8's.
The courses regularly ranked 10-20 are in the main 7's.

So in summary:
Top10 in Aust = 8+
Top11-15 = 7s-8s
Top16-20 = 7s

Thanks - so it looks like Aus has about twice as many 7-8s than Canada.  I really have to make it to Aus to play golf one of these days - I was in NZ for the 2011 RWC and played Cape Kidnappers and Kauri Cliffs, but I didn't make it across the ditch.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Number 11-20 released this morning.  Mainly carryovers from past ratings with a few additions:

• The Mt. Kidd course from Kananaskis joins the top 20 as was speculated upon.  It would be interesting to hear from someone who has played the course since it reopened two years ago.  I am skeptical that it deserves to be this high on the list.
• Memphamagog makes the list for the first time.  This is an ultra-exclusive course owned by the Demarais family in the Eastern Townships of Quebec, not far from the border from Vermont.  It appears that they recently changed their policy and are now interested in having the course ranked.  I wonder how much the exclusivity adds to their rank - similar to Redtail in past lists.
• Beacon Hall dropped down out of the top 10 to #11.  This makes room for Devil's Paintbrush to move back into the top 10.  I am guessing that this means that this year's top 10 will be the courses ranked 1-9 from 2018, plus Paintbrush.

Shaughnessy	20
Kananaskis - Mt.Kidd	19
Muskoka Bay	18
Blackhawk	17
Greywolf	16
Memphremagog	15
Oviinbyrd	14
Westmount	13
Toronto GC	12
Beacon Hall	11

[Tom_Doak]

Well, there's you sad list, right there.


The only one of them I have seen is Toronto Golf Club - because it's the only one of them anyone was excited to recommend to me!

[Wayne_Kozun]

These courses are around 6 in the CG, although they are not all in the book.  Toronto and Westmount are the only two Golden Era courses ranked 11-20 and many of us GCA afficianados value Golden Era courses more than the general golfing public/rankers.  But Mount Bruno belongs in the top 20.


I think some of the Muskoka courses are interesting and would be worth a visit if you are back in Ontario (assuming we ever let Americans back into the country). These would include Muskoka Bay, Oviinbyrd, Bigwin, etc.  Muskoka  is also a great place to be in the summer.  Muskoka is the Hamptons for Toronto, although the golf is not as good.


The top 10 will have more classic courses as it will be the Cabots, The National, Devil's Paintbrush, Hamilton and Thompson's five best - the five that are in Ian Andrew's recent book.


Masa and Darius have been to Beacon Hall and give it 6 5, although I quite like Beacon Hall and might have it a bit higher. Blackhawk(4 6) is a Whitman course and Rod generally does very good work but Masa only gave it a 4. 

[Matthew MacKay]

Blackhawk a 4??? Insane.


Toronto should be top 10, easy.

[Mike Baillie]

My take on 11 through 20 even 30/40:

- Toronto Golf should be in the Top 10.  Has the elements to be 148th or 149th Custodian or even inside the 147
- won't happen without a panel change but I would put TGC ahead of The Nat'l.  A round at the restored TGC much more enjoyable & fun.  Unless you like punishment The Nat'l only golf for those with index under 4.  Otherwise hello, 90 often.
- as Tom notes the 2nd Ten not an inspiring list especially relative to the Top Ten which is solid

[Wayne_Kozun]

I agree with you Mike on Toronto GC, and one other course that I might put in a similar vein to Toronto GC is Mount Bruno, although maybe it deserves to be slightly out of the top 10.  It is at 32 in the 2020 list.

[Wayne_Kozun]

The list was completed today with 1-10 being released.

• No big surprises as no course in the top 10 has moved more than one spot from two years ago.
• Cabot Cliffs remains in the #1 spot that it has owned since it debuted.  It's sister course Cabot Links dropped one spot to #5.
• This top 10 agrees very well with rankings from the CG.  The CG would have the National somewhat lower.
• The National swaps with Jasper for 2-3 and moves into #2.  Many rankers in Canada like the National, but it is not as well liked by the global GCA community.
• There are seven courses from Canada in the 147 Custodians, these are all in the top 9 on the Score 2020 list.

Cabot Cliffs	1
The National GC of Canada	2
Fairmont Jasper Park Lodge	3
St. George’s	4
Cabot Links	5
Fairmont Banff Springs	6
Hamilton	7
Capilano	8
Cape Breton Highlands Links	9
Devil’s Paintbrush	10

[Mike Baillie]

Back to The Future might be better!  On this site, the 1st article in the "In My Opinion" section from 2005 by four fellows well qualified on the subject, Canada's Best Golf Courses.  The list but read the commentary there for details:

1. Highland Links
2. St George's
3. Jasper                              surely the Cabots would
4 Hamilton                          fit in around here in the 4 gents
5. Banff                                ranking if they could consider
6. Capilano
7. Toronto                           this is prior to the recent restoration
8. The National                   their feedback & Tom's info in the Confid Guide a more valid view than Score
9. Devil's Paintbrush
10. Eagle's Nest                  Darius gave it a 5
11. Blackhawk                    Matthew M on here likes it.  I have not played
12. Westmount                  Critiques of the 4 on Golf Club Atlas & those in the Confid Guide write-up more true now
13. Wolf Creek                    Some one on here said Top 25, there you go
14. Cataraqui                      Score in the 90s!
15. Bigwin
16. St Thomas
17. Redtail                          Many in the know place it behind their neighbour St T
18. Rosedale                 
19. Scarboro
20. Shaughnessy 
21. Osprey Heathlands    Many on here really like it
22. Essex
23. Crowbush                     Seems high to me on both lists
24. Brantford                      Score in the 80s!
25 Glen Abbey                    Perhaps the 4 gents thought it politically correct to put last on their list 15 years ago

Which list do you think better represents the best courses in Canada?

Also support the point of Jeff (one of the 4 that wrote the article as well) a few weeks ago that a rating of 25 to 50 nationally with 2-10 others by province makes more sense.  Do people in New York, California and other states with lots of decent courses argue about which course is 73rd versus 88th in the state?  Also really wonder what the Score panelists value or fail to in many cases.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Mike,
As someone who was part of that group and part of Cabot, I think our list could use some updating, but it is still a good list.


As for your comparison to NY and CA, Canada is a country and has quite a few more courses than either of those two states...

Back to The Future might be better!  On this site, the 1st article in the "In My Opinion" section from 2005 by four fellows well qualified on the subject, Canada's Best Golf Courses.  The list but read the commentary there for details:

1. Highland Links
2. St George's
3. Jasper                              surely the Cabots would
4 Hamilton                          fit in around here in the 4 gents
5. Banff                                ranking if they could consider
6. Capilano
7. Toronto                           this is prior to the recent restoration
8. The National                   their feedback & Tom's info in the Confid Guide a more valid view than Score
9. Devil's Paintbrush
10. Eagle's Nest                  Darius gave it a 5
11. Blackhawk                    Matthew M on here likes it.  I have not played
12. Westmount                  Critiques of the 4 on Golf Club Atlas & those in the Confid Guide write-up more true now
13. Wolf Creek                    Some one on here said Top 25, there you go
14. Cataraqui                      Score in the 90s!
15. Bigwin
16. St Thomas
17. Redtail                          Many in the know place it behind their neighbour St T
18. Rosedale                 
19. Scarboro
20. Shaughnessy 
21. Osprey Heathlands    Many on here really like it
22. Essex
23. Crowbush                     Seems high to me on both lists
24. Brantford                      Score in the 80s!
25 Glen Abbey                    Perhaps the 4 gents thought it politically correct to put last on their list 15 years ago

Which list do you think better represents the best courses in Canada?

Also support the point of Jeff (one of the 4 that wrote the article as well) a few weeks ago that a rating of 25 to 50 nationally with 2-10 others by province makes more sense.  Do people in New York, California and other states with lots of decent courses argue about which course is 73rd versus 88th in the state?  Also really wonder what the Score panelists value or fail to in many cases.

[Jeff_Mingay]

We should update our 2005 summary of the best courses in Canada. I'm in for 2.0.

[Tom_Doak]

Re: Ben's note, how many golf courses are there in Canada?  Over 1000?

[Mark Saltzman]

We should update our 2005 summary of the best courses in Canada. I'm in for 2.0.

I have the numbers from when we looked at doing this a few years back...

[Wayne_Kozun]

@Tom_Doak - there are about 2600 courses in Canada according to an R&A 2019 report.  That makes it third, in terms of courses, depending on how your define country - the R&A separates out England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland as separate countries.



Country Courses Holes Facilities
United States 16,752 248,787 14,640
Japan 3,169 45,684 2,227
Canada 2,633 36,591 2,265
England 2,270 31,620 1,936
Australia 1,616 23,505 1,532
Germany 1,050 14,100 736
France 804 10,971 643
Korea, Republic Of 798 9,183 440
Sweden 662 9,303 471
Scotland 614 8,421 568
China 599 8,850 385
Spain 497 7,071 413
Ireland 494 7,530 438
South Africa 489 6,291 470

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