[Ben Malach]

Usually when SCORE gets into the top 30 the selections make more sense. Further back some strange relative rankings.

Honestly, I can't respect any list of Canadian golf where  there is such a hard regional bias. Its apparent that a majority of the panelists are based in central Canada and only value golf that reflects that region. I also understand that the reader base is mostly central Canada and the editors my feel that the reader needs a connection to the list.  I disagree entirely as I think that is a great chance missed by Score Golf to engage in a cross country discussion about what makes golf great and unique in Canada. This in turn engages the reader more than the route discussion of shuffling the list around. Which only the truly familiar can do.The largest example of this current failure in editorial direction can be most glaringly seen in the lack of inclusion this are is the total lack of prairie golf courses from Alberta east to Manitoba. Having played golf through this region I can say there are at least 2-4 worth inclusions if not more. As a traveling golfer I scratch my head at how both courses at Wolf Creek are not in the top 25 in the country as both courses are very interesting and subtle golf courses. Maybe its what we consider to be good conditions heard of any one from Scotland or Alberta complain about the ground being firm or it being to windy out to play.

Any ways,  all this was a long way of saying I think the Score Golf list is flawed beyond the wonky bottom half and I don't think it will change due to implicit Canadian Market bias. 

[Wayne_Kozun]

Ben - the central Canada bias that you speak of is a bit of a misnomer.  It is more accurate to call it an Ontario bias since Quebec's top ranked course is Mt Bruno at #35 (at least in 2018) and I think it deserves to be higher than that.

While prairie courses may be somewhat under-represented, I think that you are overlooking the fact Ontario has a huge number of courses from both the Golden Era and from the recent past that no other region in Canada can compete with.


Just look at the architects from the Golden Era - Colt, Willie Park Jr, Tillie, Ross, Travis and a plethora of courses by Stanley Thompson.


And in the last fifty years there have been a ton of ambitious courses built - the National, Devil's Pulpit/Paintbrush, Beacon Hall, Coppinwood, Goodwood, Eagle's Nest, Oviinbyrd, Bigwin, Muskoka Bay, Osprey Valley X3, and Redtail, to name just a few.


If you were to put some prairie courses into the top 25, what would you remove?  I think the only argument I could buy would be one or two of the Muskoka courses.


And the Ontario bias isn't that strong in the top 10 - after all, three of the top eight are on Cape Breton Island!


In my opinion the one area that is overrepresented is the newer ski resort courses.  I haven't played any of these courses but I find it hard to believe that all of the mountain courses on the list from places like Whistler, Mt Tremblant, Kananaskis, Panorama, etc belong in the top 100.  Maybe that is a good argument - that several of the ski resort courses should be replaced with prairie courses.

[Matthew MacKay]

I’d suggest that Ontario is under-represented (and yes, I’ve played golf in the Prairie provinces).


Until someone were to play the likes of Beverly, Oshawa, Islington, Lambton, etc etc, it’s unfair to suggest an Ontario bias. If any of those courses were in Saskatoon or Regina (for example) they’d very likely be on the list.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Numbers 51-60:

• Magna stays at #60 which is perhaps surprising as you would think they may have got a boost from holding the Canadian Women's Open
• Another course at Osprey Valley, the North, shows up at 53, up two places from 2018.
• Royal Mayfair jumps up 35 spots from 92 to 57.  Windermere is also on the list so two Edmonton courses.
• Four Doug Carrick courses out of the ten.

No 60
MAGNA
Aurora, Ont.DOUG CARRICK, 2000
7.6850 / 2018 Rank: 60


No 59
COBBLE BEACH PUBLIC
Owen Sound, Ont.DOUG CARRICK, 2006
7.6930 / 2018 Rank: 52


No 58
PORT CARLING G&CC
Port Carling, Ont.THOMAS MCBROOM, 1991
7.6956 / 2018 Rank: 45


No 57
ROYAL MAYFAIR
Edmonton, Alta.STANLEY THOMPSON, 1927
7.6982 / 2018 Rank: 92


No 56
FAIRMONT CHATEAU WHISTLER PUBLIC
Whistler, B.C.ROBERT TRENT JONES, JR., 1993
7.6984 / 2018 Rank: 50


No 55
TOWER RANCH PUBLIC
Kelowna, B.C.THOMAS MCBROOM, 2008
7.7018 / 2018 Rank: 54


No 54
BLACK BEAR RIDGE PUBLIC
Belleville, Ont.BRIAN MAGEE, 2005
7.7057 / 2018 Rank: 66


No 53
TPC TORONTO AT OSPREY VALLEY – NORTH PUBLIC
Caledon, Ont.DOUG CARRICK, 2002
7.7241 / 2018 Rank: 55


No 52
WINDERMERE
Edmonton, Alta.C.E. ROBINSON, 1957
(BILL ROBINSON)
7.7543 / 2018 Rank: 53


No 51
EAGLES NEST PUBLIC
Maple, Ont.
DOUG CARRICK, 2004
7.7563 / 2018 Rank: 41

[Mike Baillie]

Agree with Matthew's comment this morning and frankly his others during this thread.

The etc could also include Cutten Fields and Sunningdale Old (the add of the new Carrick holes & subtract of some of Thomson holes could be either a detract or boost).

Many of those mentioned belong with the 3 Winnipeg courses Tyler brought up and others outside Ontario.  There is not a ton of difference in the group from 85 to 115.  There may be minimal bias towards the extended GTA as more panelists will see the courses there and therefore more likely to get enough consideration.

Finally, if a site deserved two courses in the Top 25 it would be the Devil's, the Osprey's before Wolf Creek.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Finally, if a site deserved two courses in the Top 25 it would be the Devil's, the Osprey's before Wolf Creek.

What about Cabot - where Ben M helped build the course(s)?  Since Cliffs opened and appeared on the 2016 ratings it has had two of the top four with Cliffs at #1 and Links at #4.


Regarding the Devils - in 2018 Pulpit was 25 and Paintbrush was 11.

[Ronald Montesano]

Black Bear Ridge is that well-thought of? Doesn't it dance and dally with swamp and marsh all around?

[Mike Baillie]

Two courses at a site in the Top 25 ...

I didn't mention Cabot because both the Links and the Cliffs belong so easily in the Top 25.  Should be no debate at all and only a little regarding (not from me) the Top Ten.  Can't imagine any reasonable panelist that has played them having them out of their personal top 25 in Canada.

Both are in the top 15 of any I have played anywhere - UK, Ireland, USA included

[Wayne_Kozun]

Black Bear Ridge is that well-thought of? Doesn't it dance and dally with swamp and marsh all around?

That surprises me but I have not played the course.  But I find it hard to believe that it would be better than Kawartha or Cataraqui which are both not too far away and all three courses suffer the curse (or blessing) of being within an easy drive or Toronto but you have to drive by a lot of superior courses to get there.


The only thing that I can think of that Black Bear Ridge has going for it is that it is the closest top 100 ranked course to Prince Edward County (aka "The County") which has become very popular for weekend/summer homes for toffs from Toronto.  Maybe it is getting play from those rankers spending time in The County?

[Ben Malach]

Sorry for my late response, I wanted to fully consider your argument and address further where most rankings miss the point in my opinion. My initial comment was directed at one of the key initial biases in the ranking of most Canadian golf that being the Ontario bias. While I can understand why one would think that a larger percentage of our courses of merit would exist in Ontario. Due to historical precedents, the general wealth of Upper Canada and the large population base. While this is of some value I really don't think those are the only things to look for when trying to find great golf. As, while wealth and population are great from a business perspective. But they also create undo pressure to alter greatness or worse offer a higher value land use for the land leading to the destruction of what made a course special, these are only the hazards for existing courses. Listing the challenges of building a new course in a urban environment would take a thread on its own and many of the compromise limit their ability to be considered on a list like this. When new course are able to break the mold they happen outside areas of traditional development. I think this statement here is a great jumping off point

While prairie courses may be somewhat under-represented, I think that you are overlooking the fact Ontario has a huge number of courses from both the Golden Era and from the recent past that no other region in Canada can compete with.


Just look at the architects from the Golden Era - Colt, Willie Park Jr, Tillie, Ross, Travis and a plethora of courses by Stanley Thompson.


And in the last fifty years there have been a ton of ambitious courses built - the National, Devil's Pulpit/Paintbrush, Beacon Hall, Coppinwood, Goodwood, Eagle's Nest, Oviinbyrd, Bigwin, Muskoka Bay, Osprey Valley X3, and Redtail, to name just a few.


If you were to put some prairie courses into the top 25, what would you remove?  I think the only argument I could buy would be one or two of the Muskoka courses.

I am not arguing that one region can beat Ontario, but that each region should have more courses and Ontario could trim some of the fat. Not every classic course has been cared for in the same manner. This leads there to be a few classic courses that I think can kindly be said exist in name only. This is due to some trends of past trends in renovation/restoration and some greens committees not really knowing how to advocate for their properties. Losing a couple of these might shock Canada into caring for and restoring our great courses instead of the current state of neglected mediocrity. As for the more modern courses you mentioned, I think a few of those are due for a hard drop. I and most golfers I talk to have no interest in playing 18 holes of Russian roulette trying to avoid the intentionally placed O.B. or a set of red stakes. Also, another reason a few of these courses perennially make the list has to be the cache of access to them provides social status to raters in certain regions. As the couple ultra’s, I have seen are immaculately manicured and gave me a wonderful guest experience, but if I looked at the golf course was it really better than the $80 semi-private down the road?  Most times that answer was no, so one has to believe that hospitality and local swag has more to do with some ranking than most publications would like to discuss. Now time for an area that we can agree, upon and I think needs to be talked about more.

In my opinion the one area that is overrepresented is the newer ski resort courses.  I haven't played any of these courses but I find it hard to believe that all of the mountain courses on the list from places like Whistler, Mt Tremblant, Kananaskis, Panorama, etc belong in the top 100.  Maybe that is a good argument - that several of the ski resort courses should be replaced with prairie courses.

This comment brings up two issues, the first one that I will address is that a majority of modern resort golf is mediocre and propped up by either a gimmick and/or one free round for the rating crew. This means that when you go play these courses, raters are getting caught in the false challenge presented by most of these venues. As they have no skin in the game allowing them to overlook the many frustrations that await the paying guest  I can think of a lot of examples where this list recommends courses that are unplayable to the most golfers. This is done under the guise of a course being meant for only the better player or being a true test of the game. This all runs counter to what I personally believe we should be highlighting with lists like these which are golf courses that all golfers can find a challenge and then apply a strategy to the hole in front of them. This is a challenging concept to understand after one play, I find walking courses helps but honestly I can think of very few raters that would take the time to walk a course over playing it.  This leads to rankings being skewed in favour of courses that make you feel good via views or simplicity of the challenge presented by the venue. There are some very high ranking courses that would tumble in the resort category if we really examined how we rate courses. 

The second but I think the most important part of this response in my opinion, is the extreme urban bias in this list. Which to me is a shame because i can think of at least 4-5 smaller rural clubs that should sneak on to this list through how good the land is alone. If it is one thing that Canada is gifted with it’s dramatic landscapes and stunning vistas. I think that any list that seeks to do a list like this in a nation as geographically diverse as Canada and fails to highlight the courses that lay most gently and subtlety on the land is almost missing the point. To try to bring this together nicely, I think that a lot of my beef with this list every year comes down to its hard to convince people to look beyond their implicit bias on what makes a good Canadian golf course. 

If I was to take this list as an example of what this list looks for must not have all but will have most:
Heavily undulating site to the point where taking a golf cart is advised

Tons of extraneous bunkering that is there for flair not challenge

When there is a challenge or hazard it must be crossed in the most dramatic do or die fashion multiple times in a round

Must be ample room for cart paths and beverage carts
Views/hospitality services dominate routing more than attempting to get the best golf out of the land.

There must be a collar around every green

There will be lots of mounds off the fairway but no contour in the fairway

Greens are receptive and lack contour.

Narrow playing corridors to the point one should be packing at least 6 extra balls

Less firm and fast more, more green and very sof[size=78%][/size]t[size=78%][/size]
[size=78%][/size]
[size=78%][/size]Very contrived bunker shapes[size=78%][/size]
[size=78%][/size]
I wish that I could say more about the majority of courses but they fit a formula for golf that is insipid and uninspired. Which is a shame because most have great sites that were put in the hands of architects with little regard for the game other than it was a way they paid the mortgage. This is why I think we need to have a more holistic and nationalistic approuch to ranking rather than cherry picking random courses that fit a type. In the hope that we can turn golf in Canada into a game more resembling the one brought to our great nation over a 100 years ago. A game highlights unique regional spaces and allows for more people to enjoy the wonders of the game.

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:


That was a very good critique of the ratings game in general.  I have only one criticism:

The second but I think the most important part of this response in my opinion, is the extreme urban bias in this list. Which to me is a shame because i can think of at least 4-5 smaller rural clubs that should sneak on to this list through how good the land is alone. If it is one thing that Canada is gifted with it’s dramatic landscapes and stunning vistas. I think that any list that seeks to do a list like this in a nation as geographically diverse as Canada and fails to highlight the courses that lay most gently and subtlety on the land is almost missing the point.

You've got to name names, man.     If you choose wisely and get some panelists to start agreeing with you, the whole world could change, because so many of the panelists are sheep waiting to be told which way to go.

[Matthew MacKay]

Ben, rather than 'trimming the Ontario fat' from the list I'd rather get a list of top courses in each province (similar to what Top100GolfCourses does). Are the courses in Alberta that you think deserve more love represented there any more so than they are (or aren't) with Score? The first course that comes up on that list that might fit your description is #17. That's not going to be part of any top 100 discussion.


I agree that there are some pretty awful courses on the list that fit your description as being the 'formula'. However, I hope that isn't a blanket statement because there are some very good modern courses on that list so far.


To say that most classic courses in Canada are examples of neglected mediocrity is a wild overstatement. Sure, there are some that have gotten off the rails, but there are plenty of them that have stayed relatively true to their roots and more that have undergone successful restorations.


When it comes to convincing people to look beyond their bias when it comes to determining what constitutes a good golf course...good luck with that. The panellists are providing their opinion and that ain't going to change. The only thing that can change is the group of panellists.

[Jeff_Mingay]

In 1988, when the SCOREGolf ranking started, it was 15 courses total. In 1990, they increased it to 25 courses, which I still think is perfect. I'd prefer the magazine go back to an "exclusive" top-25 (maybe 50) and publish the top-10 in each province.


I've expressed this opinion to the powers that be at SCOREGolf (friends) over the years, to no avail 

[Frank M]

...because so many of the panelists are sheep waiting to be told which way to go.

This is as accurate as you can get.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Nos released today:

• Not a lot of movement, most courses are ranked pretty much where they were two years ago - exceptions are Royal Colwood dropping nine spots from 27 to 36 and Bigwin Island dropping eleven spots from 20 to 31.  That opens up two spots in the top 30.
• In previous rankings Royal Colwood has often been ranked almost the same as its neighbour Victoria GC.  It looks like Victoria will not be ranked a fair bit higher.  I played them both a few years back and I far preferred Victoria.
• Shout out to St. Thomas Ontario which has two courses in this list - not bad for a small city in SW Ontario.
• Mount Bruno is on this list and is likely the highest ranked course in Quebec.
• The third and last course at Osprey Valley makes the list - Hoot at 39.  As we discussed earlier in this thread, I think that the Heathlands is a much better course than Hoot or Toot (aka North).  I am not sure that all three courses deserve to be in the top 100, especially this high up.
• Two Muskoka courses on this list - it looks two others, Muskoka Bay and Oviinbyrd, will stay in the top 30.
• I don't think we have seen Big Sky yet so it looks like it will pop up into the top 30.  I am not sure what other course will appear there that wasn't in the top 30 two years ago.  Perhaps there is a new course?  I don't know if Mickelson National is eligible yet as it just opened.

No 40
THE LINKS AT CROWBUSH COVE (PUBLIC)
Morell, P.E.I.THOMAS MCBROOM, 2000
7.8708 / 2018 Rank: 39


No 39
TPC TORONTO AT OSPREY VALLEY – HOOT (PUBLIC)
Caledon, Ont.DOUG CARRICK, 2001
7.8759 / 2018 Rank: 37


No 38
ST. THOMAS
Union, Ont.STANLEY THOMPSON, 1922
(C.E. ROBINSON)
7.8780 / 2018 Rank: 38


No 37
SUMMIT
Richmond Hill, Ont.STANLEY THOMPSON, 1919
(C.E. ROBINSON, DOUG CARRICK)31-40 released
7.8798 / 2018 Rank: 33


No 36
ROYAL COLWOOD
Victoria, B.C.A.V. MACAN, 1913
7.8893 / 2018 Rank: 27


No 35
ROCKY CREST (RESORT)
MacTier, Ont.THOMAS MCBROOM, 2000
7.9076 / 2018 Rank: 32


No 34
WESTON
Toronto, Ont.WILLIE PARK, JR., 1920
7.9318 / 2018 Rank: 31


No 33
REDTAIL
St. Thomas, Ont.DONALD STEEL, 1992
7.9550 / 2018 Rank: 30


No 32
MOUNT BRUNO
St. Bruno, Que.WILLIE PARK, JR., 1918
(THOMAS MCBROOM)
7.9822 / 2018 Rank: 35


No 31
BIGWIN ISLAND
Lake of Bays, Ont.DOUG CARRICK, 2001
7.9917 / 2018 Rank: 20

[Matt Bosela]

Wayne,

I'm not a rater with Score so this is pure speculation but I wouldn't be surprised if Memphramagog from Quebec makes the top 30...seems like they've been allowing more raters in recent years and they are pretty highly ranked with GD so that could be one of the new entrants.


If Mickelson National makes it that's pretty strange.  It's only been open for about a month, hasn't it?

[Matthew MacKay]

I believe the biggest mover up will be Kananaskis- Mt Kidd. Have not seen it since the post-flood redo.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Wayne,

I'm not a rater with Score so this is pure speculation but I wouldn't be surprised if Memphramagog from Quebec makes the top 30...seems like they've been allowing more raters in recent years and they are pretty highly ranked with GD so that could be one of the new entrants.


If Mickelson National makes it that's pretty strange.  It's only been open for about a month, hasn't it?

I think you are probably right about Memphramagog.  You are also probably right about Mickelson National, but Kananaskis was only reopened in May of 2018 and made the 2018 list.  Wasn't that essentially a new course?

[Wayne_Kozun]

I believe the biggest mover up will be Kananaskis- Mt Kidd. Have not seen it since the post-flood redo.

Mt. Kidd was #44 in 2012 before the flood.  I think that Matt Bosela is probably right and Memphramagog joins the list for the first time in the top 30.  Assuming that all 28 of the top 30 that have not yet been seen retain their spots in the top 30 then that leaves room for two new courses in the top 30.  Will Big Sky move from 43 to the top 30 or will it drop off the list completely?  Or will Mt. Kidd come onto the list in the top 30.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Numbers 21-30 released today.  Not a lot of movement as most of these courses were ranked in the 20s last time.  A few notes on this list:

• Deer Valley which is the only course from Newfoundland that ever makes the list is 23, down slightly from being in the top 20 in the last few lists.
• A heavy Western component with four courses from BC and one from Alberta.
• Big Sky is a big mover up from 42 to 24.
• Assuming that all of the 2018 top 20 that we have not yet seent will make the top 20 again, there are two openings in the top 20.  Who will take those two spots? Memphramagog and Kananskis - Mt. Kidd? Pre-flood the high for Mt. Kidd was 26 in 2006.  It was at 44 in the 2012 rankings. 
• I played Coppinwood yesterday and they have reversed the nines due to Covid restrictions.  I kind of like playing the course this way as the original back nine is more interesting in terms of land movement.

Tobiano	30
Stewart Creek	29
Predator Ridge – Ridge	28
London Hunt	27
Goodwood GC	26
Devil’s Pulpit	25
Big Sky	24
Humber Valley	23
Coppinwood	22
Victoria GC	21

[Matthew MacKay]

This grouping of courses just reinforces how little great golf we have in Canada


I mean, all good courses there (Victoria is special), but c’mon.

[Wayne_Kozun]

That's true Matt, but outside of the US and UK do any countries have that much depth?  It would be interesting to compare these ten courses with the courses ranked 21-30 in Ireland and Australia.

[Matthew MacKay]

I think Australia would be the best comparison from a modern course perspective.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Here is the Aussie Top 100 from Golf Australia.  I have never been golfing in Australia so I am not qualified to judge the relative merits of the depth of this list vs ScoreGolf:
https://www.golfaustralia.com.au/feature/ranking-australias-top-100-courses-for-2020-537630/page0

[Jeff_Mingay]

This grouping of courses just reinforces how little great golf we have in Canada


I mean, all good courses there (Victoria is special), but c’mon.

I agree, unfortunately. Which, again, speaks to the fact that this should be a top-50, max. Probably 25.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()