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John Kavanaugh

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Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2020, 11:02:57 AM »
David,

I'm pretty sure if you comb over the tens of thousands of swings by any professional golfer, you can find plenty of times when they took a big lash at the ball depending on the circumstances.

The question is does that reflect how they swung most of the time?


Kalen,


The strategy of modern tournament golf has changed as much as the equipment.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2020, 11:10:42 AM »
David,

I'm pretty sure if you comb over the tens of thousands of swings by any professional golfer, you can find plenty of times when they took a big lash at the ball depending on the circumstances.

The question is does that reflect how they swung most of the time?

Kalen,

The strategy of modern tournament golf has changed as much as the equipment.


Agreed John,

This has enabled guys like Bryson to take full rips on nearly every shot. 

My previous point was in response to David claiming that pros have been taking rips at the ball since the dawn of the game.  And while that may be true, its nowhere near the same % of time because the crooked balls and "inferior" equipment would bite you in the ass....Seve being the one lone exception.

Its also why big swingers like Bubba and Phil have had lots of success as well.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2020, 11:16:18 AM »
But you and others have said the modern ball and big swings put people in danger because they go so far off line.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2020, 11:26:50 AM »
But you and others have said the modern ball and big swings put people in danger because they go so far off line.

Barney,

I don't recall saying it's more dangerous per se.  Yes, attending a pro tournament by default always carry some risk of being hit by a ball, but that will always be the case.

My concern is the average weekend double digit Joe hitting more wayward balls or topped balls, by taking big swipes, which in turn leads to even slower rounds due to more shot attempts and looking for said balls.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2020, 11:37:52 AM »
The USGA can not regulate stupid. That’s why handicaps never go down no matter how great the equipment may be.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2020, 11:55:18 AM »
The USGA can not regulate stupid. That’s why handicaps never go down no matter how great the equipment may be.

Having trouble getting your handicap to go down with the latest equipment?

;)

Just seems to me that practice is the factor instead of intelligence. And, others on this site report that handicaps have gone down. My top two candidates for handicaps going down. Successful golfers staying with the game longer than less successful golfers. And, a ball that spins less off of the longer clubs cuts down on undesirable in flight curvature.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2020, 12:16:06 PM »
I’m a +1 from the tees I should be playing. The ball doesn’t move people!!!

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2020, 04:53:37 PM »
And, does having a chance to play Oakmont define a situation where it is deemed necessary to swing "very hard"? ;)


Sadly, I have to swing "very hard" almost every time I pull out driver on virtually any course nowadays in order to shoot around or below the course rating. I carry driver about 225 to 230 with runout, depending on conditions, to only about 245 to 255. I've routinely outdriven by 40 to 80 yards by my fellow competitors. I have a qualifier on Thursday for the SCGA Amateur, and I think I've drawn two college kids. Will likely bet 60 to 100 behind them on the par 5's and long par 4's, Garland. Ouch.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2020, 05:01:05 PM »
I’m a +1 from the tees I should be playing. The ball doesn’t move people!!!

David's index is +1. You still want a money game with him? ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #84 on: July 07, 2020, 05:09:46 PM »
And, does having a chance to play Oakmont define a situation where it is deemed necessary to swing "very hard"? ;)


Sadly, I have to swing "very hard" almost every time I pull out driver on virtually any course nowadays in order to shoot around or below the course rating. I carry driver about 225 to 230 with runout, depending on conditions, to only about 245 to 255. I've routinely outdriven by 40 to 80 yards by my fellow competitors. I have a qualifier on Thursday for the SCGA Amateur, and I think I've drawn two college kids. Will likely bet 60 to 100 behind them on the par 5's and long par 4's, Garland. Ouch.


David, It's great you are still out there competing. I've retired to senior events and my club championship where I have to go up against a long hitting legit plus 4. That should be fun................
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #85 on: July 07, 2020, 05:13:37 PM »
I’m a +1 from the tees I should be playing. The ball doesn’t move people!!!

David's index is +1. You still want a money game with him? ;)


Anytime a guy can beat me straight up it is worth the price of admission. I’ve never been beat by someone who hits it even shorter than me. Time and place baby. Time and place.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #86 on: July 07, 2020, 05:20:16 PM »
To those of you bashing his play as one dimensional bomb and gouge with no creativity; did you watch Sunday?


He hit a bunker shot from over the fifth green that would be Mickelsons best of the year.


On the next hole he hit a short running draw from under a tree on the left to about 12 feet. This would have made Seve proud.


His drive and wedge on the last were for the win and we’re both absolutely top class shots.


I’m no fan of his antics, but he is far from the monotonous player implied here.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #87 on: July 07, 2020, 05:21:55 PM »

It's just not debatable to me that the best pros of every era have swung very hard at the driver when they deemed the situation/shot called for it.

So how often did they deem the situation called for it? All day Thursday?

What percentage of the time did swinging "very hard" work out for players "back in the day" before modern equipment vs. current players swinging "very hard"?

How come players on the junior tour have their driving averages drop when they make the big tour? How come said players say they dial it back to score well enough to compete on the big tour? How come Ben Hogan generally won driving distance contests, but seldom drove it as far as his opponents in tournaments?


Not sure where we are on this topic. Modern equipment and the modern ball has definitely has allowed players to swing at/near 100% effort more often. No doubt. That is not in dispute from me. I was merely pointing out that players have always swung aggressively at driver. I think I proved that with those videos.


What modern statistical analysis has taught us, though, is that you are generally better off crushing it and finding it and hitting the next one than you are smoothing it along "skillfully" or "artfully" or whatever you want to call it. The art/finesse of golf still happens on the approach (watch Tiger hit irons, to this day, if you want to see a master class in how to control your golf ball), around the greens, and on the greens. But the tee ball should be ripped whenever possible. Closer equals better. Always has. It's just that it's hard to change people's long-held beliefs about things they care about.


For most long to very long expert players, if there's about 40 yards of distance between danger zones and the rough is manageable, you are almost always better off crushing driver and dealing with the consequences than "laying up" or "playing safe." There are, of course, exceptions, and the thicker the rough, the less easy that decision is. And there are always plenty of holes where the is NOT 40 yards of distance between danger zones, so even players who "get" this new system will play plenty of holes over a season where driver is definitely not the play and they will hit 3-wood or 2-iron/hybrid.


And while "angles" into certain pin positions on certain greens do play some role in decision making, modern equipment is such that virtually no pin is inaccessible to expert players with a sharp-grooved, low-bounce 60* - 64* wedge. More importantly, if you just always hit driver on a hole where an angle does help you access a certain pin, you will still score lower, on average, than by "chasing the correct angle" to the green. It's (virtually always) simply better to be 105 yards with a crappy angle than it is to be 142 yards with a perfect angle. And keep in mind that a good percentage of the time, you will be 105 with a good or perfect angle! also, there's no guarantee, that by chasing the correct angle into a green, that you will pull it off in the first place! Sometimes you will be 142 and with a mediocre or bad angle when you could be 102 with a mediocre or bad angle. That's what makes "sending it" (the new term, LOL) the way to (generally) score your best.


I just wish more courses were set up so that you could only send it on maybe 9 or 10 of the driving holes. Too many courses they play on tour allow the long guys to hit 95% driver on too many holes. I don't like that either!


Playing aggressively off the tee simply lowers expert golfers' average scores. If they're off with the driver one week, big deal. Most now know that, on most holes, hitting it far trumps playing "safely," over time.


Much more to say on this topic. But I'm not really sure what the exact topic is... LOL

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #88 on: July 07, 2020, 05:38:58 PM »
And, does having a chance to play Oakmont define a situation where it is deemed necessary to swing "very hard"? ;)


Sadly, I have to swing "very hard" almost every time I pull out driver on virtually any course nowadays in order to shoot around or below the course rating. I carry driver about 225 to 230 with runout, depending on conditions, to only about 245 to 255. I've routinely outdriven by 40 to 80 yards by my fellow competitors. I have a qualifier on Thursday for the SCGA Amateur, and I think I've drawn two college kids. Will likely bet 60 to 100 behind them on the par 5's and long par 4's, Garland. Ouch.


David, It's great you are still out there competing. I've retired to senior events and my club championship where I have to go up against a long hitting legit plus 4. That should be fun................


Our club's 9-time club champ (9 of the last 10 years!) is a +3 and he hits it 50 to 70 past me. Every driver hole.


Last year, though, in my first year at the club, I managed to beat him in our match-play, gross club championship in 20 holes. Definitely one of my prouder golf moments. He got me later in the year in our 54-hole stroke-play club championship, though, so we're even in championships won during my (brief) tenure there. :-)

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #89 on: July 07, 2020, 05:40:54 PM »
I’m a +1 from the tees I should be playing. The ball doesn’t move people!!!

David's index is +1. You still want a money game with him? ;)


Anytime a guy can beat me straight up it is worth the price of admission. I’ve never been beat by someone who hits it even shorter than me. Time and place baby. Time and place.


Where do you live, John? New York, was it? I'm considering playing in the J.R. Williams Invitational at Oak Hill. Maybe we can hook up for a match if my partner and I get it and I travel out there. Would be a blast!

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #90 on: July 07, 2020, 05:42:48 PM »
To those of you bashing his play as one dimensional bomb and gouge with no creativity; did you watch Sunday?


He hit a bunker shot from over the fifth green that would be Mickelsons best of the year.


On the next hole he hit a short running draw from under a tree on the left to about 12 feet. This would have made Seve proud.


His drive and wedge on the last were for the win and we’re both absolutely top class shots.


I’m no fan of his antics, but he is far from the monotonous player implied here.


Amen, Jim. The "art" of the game is on the approach, recovery, short-game, and putting. Driving is about crushing it. Sadly, for me, "crushing it" is all of 245 yards!!  :'(

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #91 on: July 07, 2020, 05:47:54 PM »
David,


I’m in Orlando. Everyone eventually ends up here someday.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #92 on: July 07, 2020, 05:59:05 PM »
David,


I’m in Orlando. Everyone eventually ends up here someday.


Orlando? Rochester? What's the difference? Isn't everywhere on the east coast an hour or so away?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #93 on: July 07, 2020, 06:57:06 PM »
...
What modern statistical analysis has taught us, though, is that you are generally better off crushing it and finding it and hitting the next one than you are smoothing it along "skillfully" or "artfully" or whatever you want to call it. The art/finesse of golf still happens on the approach (watch Tiger hit irons, to this day, if you want to see a master class in how to control your golf ball), around the greens, and on the greens. But the tee ball should be ripped whenever possible. Closer equals better. Always has. It's just that it's hard to change people's long-held beliefs about things they care about.
...

Unfortunately, modern statistical analysis has always worked off of data from using the modern ball. (Assuming you are referring to Broadie.)

Sam Snead may have been the original bomb and gouger. Unfortunately, his attempts to bomb and gouge suffered severely when he got into spells of curving the ball uncontrollably. Ben Hogan never got his career off the ground until he managed to dial it back enough to control the curving ball. I think if Broadie had been doing his golf stats 50 to 60 years ago, you would not be singing praises of going all out, as I believe he would have been finding much different results.

How do you explain PGA Tour driving stats?
1986   261.58   Davis Love III   285.7
1985   260.18   Andy Bean   278.2
1984   259.61   Bill Glasson   276.5
1983   258.65   John McComish   277.4
1982   256.89   Bill Calfee   275.3
1981   259.66   Dan Pohl   280.1
1980   256.89   Dan Pohl   274.3
In the early 70s, when I was a highly conditioned athlete with forearms of steel from working summers in a sawmill, I was carrying it farther in the air than the longest PGA pros were averaging on tour in the early 80s. Don't tell me they were going after it 100% nearly all the time.

Getting back to Sam Snead. He could regularly drive it over 300 yards. However, he couldn't control the ball in use back then to do that on tour. The very first drive he hit in bounds at his very first PGA Tour event practice went something like 330 yards. This was after hitting his first OB, having two members of the foursome head off down the fairway, while one hung back and encouraged him to relax and try again. After also sending his second one OB, as I recall it was his third one that blew well over the players in the fairway and ended on the green to their shock and amazement.


"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #94 on: July 07, 2020, 07:55:14 PM »
...
What modern statistical analysis has taught us, though, is that you are generally better off crushing it and finding it and hitting the next one than you are smoothing it along "skillfully" or "artfully" or whatever you want to call it. The art/finesse of golf still happens on the approach (watch Tiger hit irons, to this day, if you want to see a master class in how to control your golf ball), around the greens, and on the greens. But the tee ball should be ripped whenever possible. Closer equals better. Always has. It's just that it's hard to change people's long-held beliefs about things they care about.
...

Unfortunately, modern statistical analysis has always worked off of data from using the modern ball. (Assuming you are referring to Broadie.)

Sam Snead may have been the original bomb and gouger. Unfortunately, his attempts to bomb and gouge suffered severely when he got into spells of curving the ball uncontrollably. Ben Hogan never got his career off the ground until he managed to dial it back enough to control the curving ball. I think if Broadie had been doing his golf stats 50 to 60 years ago, you would not be singing praises of going all out, as I believe he would have been finding much different results.

How do you explain PGA Tour driving stats?
1986   261.58   Davis Love III   285.7
1985   260.18   Andy Bean   278.2
1984   259.61   Bill Glasson   276.5
1983   258.65   John McComish   277.4
1982   256.89   Bill Calfee   275.3
1981   259.66   Dan Pohl   280.1
1980   256.89   Dan Pohl   274.3
In the early 70s, when I was a highly conditioned athlete with forearms of steel from working summers in a sawmill, I was carrying it farther in the air than the longest PGA pros were averaging on tour in the early 80s. Don't tell me they were going after it 100% nearly all the time.

Getting back to Sam Snead. He could regularly drive it over 300 yards. However, he couldn't control the ball in use back then to do that on tour. The very first drive he hit in bounds at his very first PGA Tour event practice went something like 330 yards. This was after hitting his first OB, having two members of the foursome head off down the fairway, while one hung back and encouraged him to relax and try again. After also sending his second one OB, as I recall it was his third one that blew well over the players in the fairway and ended on the green to their shock and amazement.


I really don't think we're disagreeing on much, if anything, Garland. I never said old pros always ripped at it. I said they definitely did sometimes, and that was in response to someone else's post, I believe.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #95 on: July 07, 2020, 08:20:12 PM »
David,


So your buying that a double digit handicap in the 70’s carried the ball further than the best pro’s would a decade later?

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #96 on: July 07, 2020, 08:22:55 PM »
David,


So your buying that a double digit handicap in the 70’s carried the ball further than the best pro’s would a decade later?


I thought he was joking ....


Garland?


I mean, I did know a 4-capper who regularly carried it 300 - 310+ in 1990, but that's different...

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #97 on: July 07, 2020, 09:53:32 PM »
David,


So your buying that a double digit handicap in the 70’s carried the ball further than the best pro’s would a decade later?

Mickey Mantle was a double digit in the 60s, and he could do it with a 3 wood. It has nothing to do with handicap. Everything to do with strength, which brings us back to Bryson De. I was hitting TopFlites in the 70s, which gave me the low spin advantage the modern pros are exploiting.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #98 on: July 07, 2020, 09:57:33 PM »
David,


So your buying that a double digit handicap in the 70’s carried the ball further than the best pro’s would a decade later?


I thought he was joking ....


Garland?


I mean, I did know a 4-capper who regularly carried it 300 - 310+ in 1990, but that's different...

David,

Maybe you should take a job in a sawmill, and spend 8 hours a day lifting heavy chunks of wood. It might  would help your driving distance.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 10:00:01 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau
« Reply #99 on: July 07, 2020, 10:47:11 PM »
According to Every Shot Counts book, Tiger dominated because of his approach shots were so much better.


However, I think the great players always have another gear to pipe one when needed.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 10:49:17 PM by Paul Jones »
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

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