Lawson Little and Bryson DeChambeau

[John Kavanaugh]

Then explain why Seve hit more drives further off line than any great golfer today.

[Kalen Braley]

Then explain why Seve hit more drives further off line than any great golfer today.

Well Seve was more than a one in a million.  He was a a once in a lifetime.

Once again, not talking about the few exceptions, much less a super exception like Seve...

[John Kavanaugh]

Then explain why Seve hit more drives further off line than any great golfer today.

Well Seve was more than a one in a million.  He was a a once in a lifetime.

Once again, not talking about the few exceptions, much less a super exception like Seve...

I haven't hit the ball in the middle of a highway for years. Current drivers just don't spin the ball enough. The ball is going further but it is also straighter.


My only real argument is that the long ball is not boring.

[Thomas Dai]

My only real argument is that the long ball is not boring.

.... but the 2nd shots that follow a long drive by an elite player usually are!

atb

[Kalen Braley]

Fair enough Barney,

I won't disagree that the long ball is not boring, chicks will always dig it. But they got competitions just for that too, with chicks to boot, and they're on TV a lot more now.

But I'd much rather see players carving a 4 iron around a tree to 5 feet than yet another bomb and gouge, wedge fest.. hole after hole.  All that long iron mastery from Jack and Tiger, those were the actual shots that people remembered, even if they tuned in to watch em eviscerate the field in the process too. And yes as much as I'm not a Spieth fan, he is a wizard with the flat stick, and has made some incredibly sick putts in his career.

At the end of the day, it should be about balance and requiring players to have all the shots... and the pro game is lacking it in bunches right now. Bryson could have only carried 6 clubs in his bag and still easily won.  (Driver, 5 iron, 8 iron, two wedges, and a putter)

[David Ober]

I think the real problem here is the monkey see, monkey do nonsense from weekend hacks.

Swinging out of their shoes on every shot, hitting balls way off line and adding a ton of extra time per player per round looking for all those wayward shots...

Stop. I've been hitting drives as far as I can for over 50 years. I even went so far as to put balls on top of a pencil.


This is not new!!! This is not boring!!!

Agree 100%. Guys have been taking absolute, near 100% rips at the ball since the dawn of the game, and anyone who thinks Nicklaus, et al. didn't swing absolutely as hard as he could at driver several times a round is just kidding themselves, cherry-picked quotes to the contrary, notwithstanding. All you have to do is watch video of him, in tournaments, to see him crushing the ball with all his might to know he frequently "let it all hang out," as it were.


The thing is, modern statistical analysis has simply confirmed that Jack (and everyone else) all along, should have been doing this on far more holes than he did -- because it would have benefitted him in the long run! In other words, he would have played the same way Bryson does now, had he known it was, statistically and empirically, the best way to play the game if low score is the goal.


And I agree with you, John, it's most certainly not boring for me to watch, whatsoever. It's also not at all boring to watch -- if you see it in person. Playing with a "mini-bomber" like Rickie Fowler and watching him hit a 5-wood from 255, uphill, into a wind and onto a firm green, landing it 50 feet short and seeing it roll to 8-feet for eagle, all the while looking like he's hitting it within the launch window of what you would expect from a damn pitching wedge is not boring. It's ... awe-inspiring.

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,


So you like trees now?

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

So you like trees now?

Yes Barney.


All of them! 

[David Ober]

Wow. Talk about crushing the ball! Here's Nicklaus at the Open Championship at St. Andrews...

https://youtu.be/pPicaKToelM

[Thomas Dai]

Wow. Talk about crushing the ball! Here's Nicklaus at the Open Championship at St. Andrews...
https://youtu.be/pPicaKToelM

Not a good example ....... note from the flagstick that the hole was playing straight downwind. Also watch the amount of wind blown movement in the spectators clothing and listen to the recording and you'll realise how strongly the wind was blowing when the shot was hit.
atb

PS - worth adding that Doug Sanders play-off tee shot finished only a few feet short of the green.

[Jason Thurman]

DeChambeau's very boring performance warranted a breakdown from FiveThirtyEight today: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bryson-dechambeaus-power-boost-is-off-the-charts/

[Jason Thurman]

Wow. Talk about crushing the ball! Here's Nicklaus at the Open Championship at St. Andrews...
https://youtu.be/pPicaKToelM

Not a good example ....... note from the flagstick that the hole was playing straight downwind. Also watch the amount of wind blown movement in the spectators clothing and listen to the recording and you'll realise how strongly the wind was blowing when the shot was hit.
atb

PS - worth adding that Doug Sanders play-off tee shot finished only a few feet short of the green.

What's your point? That Bryson's advantage over the field is only about as big as Jack's was over Doug Sanders back in the day?


How will we know when this problem has been fixed? How far should Bryson be able to hit it? And how far should the average Tour player be able to hit it?

[Michael Dugger]

It seems to me the U.S. Open usually illuminates how to deal with these matters.


Turn off the water. 

[Garland Bayley]

Then explain why Seve hit more drives further off line than any great golfer today.

Well Seve was more than a one in a million.  He was a a once in a lifetime. ...

Wrong answer Kalen. The correct answer is spin.

[Garland Bayley]

..., and anyone who thinks Nicklaus, et al. didn't swing absolutely as hard as he could at driver several times a round is just kidding themselves, ...

So Jack was either a liar or delusional. The way he talked and wrote about it certainly conflicts with what you write.

[Garland Bayley]

Wow. Talk about crushing the ball! Here's Nicklaus at the Open Championship at St. Andrews...

https://youtu.be/pPicaKToelM

Down wind in a very strong tail wind on links fescue. Bobby Jones could have done that with hickory.

[Garland Bayley]

Wow. Talk about crushing the ball! Here's Nicklaus at the Open Championship at St. Andrews...
https://youtu.be/pPicaKToelM

Not a good example ....... note from the flagstick that the hole was playing straight downwind. Also watch the amount of wind blown movement in the spectators clothing and listen to the recording and you'll realise how strongly the wind was blowing when the shot was hit.
atb

PS - worth adding that Doug Sanders play-off tee shot finished only a few feet short of the green.

And, Doug did that without a backswing.

[David Ober]

..., and anyone who thinks Nicklaus, et al. didn't swing absolutely as hard as he could at driver several times a round is just kidding themselves, ...

So Jack was either a liar or delusional. The way he talked and wrote about it certainly conflicts with what you write.

Jack was/is frequently delusional about his own game ("I never 3-putted the 72nd hole of a major championship") -- as many greats are/have been. That example of Jack hitting it well over the green (probably another 20 - 30 yards if the junk over the green doesn't stop it) took me all of 30 seconds to find. There are many more – especially from his younger days. He absolutely ripped at it when he felt the situation called for it, Garland. As did Player, Palmer, et al.

[Rob Marshall]

..., and anyone who thinks Nicklaus, et al. didn't swing absolutely as hard as he could at driver several times a round is just kidding themselves, ...

So Jack was either a liar or delusional. The way he talked and wrote about it certainly conflicts with what you write.

Jack was/is frequently delusional about his own game ("I never 3-putted the 72nd hole of a major championship") -- as many greats are/have been. That example of Jack hitting it well over the green (probably another 20 - 30 yards if the junk over the green doesn't stop it) took me all of 30 seconds to find. There are many more – especially from his younger days. He absolutely ripped at it when he felt the situation called for it, Garland. As did Player, Palmer, et al.

It’s not delusional. Great champions have selective memories. It’s by design. It’s one of the traits that makes them great.

[David Ober]

..., and anyone who thinks Nicklaus, et al. didn't swing absolutely as hard as he could at driver several times a round is just kidding themselves, ...

So Jack was either a liar or delusional. The way he talked and wrote about it certainly conflicts with what you write.

J[size=78%]ack was/is frequently delusional about his own game ("I never 3-putted the 72nd hole of a major championship") -- as many greats are/have been. That example of Jack hitting it well over the green (probably another 20 - 30 yards if the junk over the green doesn't stop it) took me all of 30 seconds to find. There are many more – especially from his younger days. He absolutely ripped at it when he felt the situation called for it, Garland. As did Player, Palmer, et al.[/size]

It’s not delusional. Great champions have selective memories. It’s by design. It’s one of the traits that makes them great.

Agreed. Delusional is not the right word, it's just the one that Garland used. :-)


They all ripped at it back then -- when they thought the situation/hole called for it.


Here's Johnny Miller: https://youtu.be/hSsl4qeauDU?t=600


Here's Tommy Horton ripping at one: https://youtu.be/hSsl4qeauDU?t=1286


And Jack again: https://youtu.be/hSsl4qeauDU?t=1977


Watson ripping one:https://youtu.be/_ojtX1GrIcc?t=1794


Jack crushing one, leaving nothing in the bag: https://youtu.be/_ojtX1GrIcc?t=1794


Johnny Miller definitely NOT going gentle into that good night: https://youtu.be/_ojtX1GrIcc?t=1794


[/size]Another one of Miller attacking the ball with a driver: [size=78%]https://youtu.be/_ojtX1GrIcc?t=1794

It's just not debatable to me that the best pros of every era have swung very hard at the driver when they deemed the situation/shot called for it.

[Garland Bayley]

It's just not debatable to me that the best pros of every era have swung very hard at the driver when they deemed the situation/shot called for it.

So how often did they deem the situation called for it? All day Thursday?

What percentage of the time did swinging "very hard" work out for players "back in the day" before modern equipment vs. current players swinging "very hard"?

How come players on the junior tour have their driving averages drop when they make the big tour? How come said players say they dial it back to score well enough to compete on the big tour? How come Ben Hogan generally won driving distance contests, but seldom drove it as far as his opponents in tournaments?

[Garland Bayley]

And, does having a chance to play Oakmont define a situation where it is deemed necessary to swing "very hard"?

[Thomas Dai]

Johnny Miller definitely NOT going gentle into that good night: https://youtu.be/_ojtX1GrIcc?t=1794

Thanks for highlighting this one. A very exciting Major. Very re-watchable. Such a variety of shots played and clubs used to play them.

Note at 1:08:45 Johnny Miller, after hitting a long rolling drive, using a fairway wood (with a wooden head and steel shaft) for his downhill second shot on the 15th at ANGC.
Kind of shows the 'progress-distance' quandary rather nicely.

I wonder when was the last time Bryson hit a fairway wood (now metal with a graphite shaft) for his second shot on any hole and how long the hole was to accommodate him hitting two shots ... 650-700 yds? That's a lot of land. Not a criticism of Bryson himself though, but when others, including youngsters not yet fully grown, start copying his gym work, protein diet and the like, well 650-700 yds won't be sufficient for two shots.

As to the famous Nicklaus tee shot on the 18th at TOC in the play-off against Doug Sanders, it's worth noting that Nicklaus's shot was most likely played with the 1:62" ball, which has always been acknowledged as being longer than the 1:68".

Curious how when the 1:62" was removed from use in The Open in the mid-1970's and removed from play generally circa 1990 the manufacturers didn't moan and hint at lawsuits, they just got on with producing 1:68"'s. And how the players of the time, amateurs and elites alike, didn't moan about losing distance, they just got on with playing.

atb


PS - this is worth a listen - Geoff Shackelford - [size=78%]https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-18-is-brysons-style-of-golf-unsettling/id1506821154?i=1000483074764[/size]

[John Kavanaugh]

It's just not debatable to me that the best pros of every era have swung very hard at the driver when they deemed the situation/shot called for it.

So how often did they deem the situation called for it? All day Thursday?

What percentage of the time did swinging "very hard" work out for players "back in the day" before modern equipment vs. current players swinging "very hard"?

How come players on the junior tour have their driving averages drop when they make the big tour? How come said players say they dial it back to score well enough to compete on the big tour? How come Ben Hogan generally won driving distance contests, but seldom drove it as far as his opponents in tournaments?

"Back in the day" Nicklaus famously only played well enough at the start of every tournament to be near the lead on Sunday. The lack of competition in his time did not require him to play "balls out". With all the great players who can win every week now you just can't be that cautious.

[Kalen Braley]

David,

I'm pretty sure if you comb over the tens of thousands of swings by any professional golfer, you can find plenty of times when they took a big lash at the ball depending on the circumstances.

The question is does that reflect how they swung most of the time?