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Bernie Bell

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2020, 07:57:37 AM »
A fellow's blacklist tells you more about him than about the courses on his list, which he's never seen. 

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2020, 11:15:50 AM »
John,
This is actually a good thread  :)  The problem is, so many great golf courses, so little time.  We all have to prioritize what we want to see and play and that is totally understandable.  I remember 20 years or so ago heading to Scotland and my buddy there who sets up a lot of my UK golf trips added Loch Lomond to our agenda.  I told him I didn't want to play "an American style" golf course, I could play those any time.  I wanted to only play links.  I am glad I ended up playing it as with most any course I usually can find something that is interesting and worthwhile seeing. 


Some people only need to see courses once and then box is checked off for them but as most know, the greatest courses need more study than that to give them their proper dues.  And also, once they are changed or renovated or restored, they require at least a second look.  If you haven't played Oakmont in the last 10 or 15 years for example, you would not know you were on the same golf course if you played it today.  There are many others like that as well. 

William_G

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2020, 08:54:20 PM »



Some people only need to see courses once and then box is checked off for them but as most know, the greatest courses need more study than that to give them their proper dues.  And also, once they are changed or renovated or restored, they require at least a second look.  If you haven't played Oakmont in the last 10 or 15 years for example, you would not know you were on the same golf course if you played it today.  There are many others like that as well.


some folks are quick learners, others never do, sad stuff
cheers
It's all about the golf!

Paul Jones

  • Total Karma: 5
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2020, 09:03:52 PM »
Great thread - on a different but similar note  :) , I just made a list of courses that I played once and want to play again.  This is a very short, as I enjoy seeing new courses. 
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2020, 09:41:28 PM »
Maybe it is just me, but I think it is challenging for anyone to make very strong judgments about a course after one visit (especially if they are playing and especially if they are riding in a golf cart, while trying to post a true score and also so they can check off an “I played there box”) and identify all the aspects of a design that separate a good course from a great course.  This is in part why course rankings are all over the map!  I am not saying we don’t all do this at times, I am just saying it is not really fair to assess a design that an architect has likely worked for years on in one four hour or less visit.


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William_G

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2020, 12:29:10 AM »
Maybe it is just me, but I think it is challenging for anyone to make very strong judgments about a course after one visit (especially if they are playing and especially if they are riding in a golf cart, while trying to post a true score and also so they can check off an “I played there box”) and identify all the aspects of a design that separate a good course from a great course.  This is in part why course rankings are all over the map!  I am not saying we don’t all do this at times, I am just saying it is not really fair to assess a design that an architect has likely worked for years on in one four hour or less visit.






Yet a course is designed for a 4 hour tour isn't it? I mean what are you talking about? Marriage or golf?



PS.I always walk a course and carry or with a caddie if available, HT, Kiawah, Sawgrass, Shadow Creek, etc... You?


cheers
It's all about the golf!

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2020, 06:04:18 AM »
William,
I always walk if allowed and play with a caddie if available. If I am by myself or just with another partner traveling with me I often get paired up with a member or the super or someone who knows a little about the history of the course.  It helps a lot if you are really there to try to determine just how good the design is. 


I never thought I would use this comparison but it is a little like having one meal at a restaurant and then giving it three Michelin stars.  I don’t know how they evaluate restaurants to make that determination but it is likely by having more than one meal and one quick look around.  Great golf courses are the same, they require you to understand the whole menu and everything about them before handing out or taking away stars. 


Yes courses are designed as you say for four hour rounds but not for four hour assessments of how good they are.  I used Bobby Jones as example of how his opinion evolved of The Old Course from walking off hating it to becoming his favorite.  You might laugh/disagree but I have played golf with A LOT of raters and/or just fellow golfers who make strong judgements of courses primarily due to how well they are playing that day or how nice the weather is or how well they were treated in the pro shop or some combination of the above. We all are human and it is easy to jump to a quick conclusion (some courses are simple and it doesn’t take much - most of those under a Doak 5 or 6 might fall in that category).  But to separate the ones above that especially when you get to the best of the best IS a lot like a marriage.  It can be love at first sight but usually it is best if you date a little before making that decision. 

« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 06:08:32 AM by Mark_Fine »

William_G

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2020, 09:24:25 AM »
agree to disagree


any meal should be great at any great restaurant, but if don't like great Vietnamese food, it doesn't matter how many times you try it


this is basic with anything given the astuteness of the player, the diner or the drinker if you want to type about wine


geez
It's all about the golf!

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2020, 09:39:03 AM »
William,
Some people don’t like links golf.  Does that mean St. Andrews is a poor design?


I am not telling you what to like or not like.  I am just saying (very similar to Mike Malone’s thread about a pro visiting one time and making strong comments about Rolling Green or any golf course), that the best courses need much more than one go around to assess them fairly.  If we disagree on that so be it. 

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2020, 09:40:36 AM »
A great hotel would not remain great if anyone could stay for free. It may not even remain a hotel. All this while the architecture remains unchanged.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2020, 12:07:05 PM »
I think what William is saying here is a bit nuanced, and I agree with him.

To use another analogy, its like taking a car for a test drive.  It may be a highly rated, well built, and highly regarded vehicle, but in the end maybe doesn't suit your tastes/preferences or provide value for the price point.  Its not saying the car sucks, it just isn't for you.


Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2020, 12:25:35 PM »
To answer the question as posed in the OP, no one cares. Not even my dog.


Ira

Joe Zucker

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2020, 02:03:43 PM »
I think what William is saying here is a bit nuanced, and I agree with him.

To use another analogy, its like taking a car for a test drive.  It may be a highly rated, well built, and highly regarded vehicle, but in the end maybe doesn't suit your tastes/preferences or provide value for the price point.  Its not saying the car sucks, it just isn't for you.


I've often thought about this concept for areas other than golf and I've come to the conclusion that english does not have a word to express this feeling.  It is appreciation for the excellence, but not suited to one's specific tastes. The best I can come up with is saying "I don't prefer that", but that doesn't quite get at the point.


The best analogy I have for this feeling is food.  I've been to some very good sushi restaurants where the technique and quality is very high.  But I hate sushi and found every one of these meals to be unpleasant.  I can appreciate how good something is with out liking it.  It's hard to get this feeling across succinctly, but there is no reason it can't apply to golf as well.

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2020, 02:17:06 PM »
What you don’t like is muddled in a steaming pile of boredom. Be a better person and like more stuff. The world isn’t a giant Costco where you look for a deal on almost what you think you would like.

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2020, 03:03:34 PM »
Interesting people like things. Boring people hate things.

Gib_Papazian

Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2020, 05:46:47 PM »
Joe,

I hate to publicly agree with Barny about anything, because it only encourages his provocative pith (like I'm one to talk), but you gotta expand your horizons. However, the last time he was forced to endure my company over dinner, "Indiana Barn" insisted we go to a steakhouse - since the very idea of a sushi dinner nearly made him gag. 

Being a saddle-shoe wearing, Northern California culinary aesthete, I was raised on sushi - actually sashimi first, because 50-odd years ago, unless you went to Japan Town, all you got was soggy Tempura and Sukiyaki - which was invented in America to feed the rubes as revenge for internment camps and the Manhattan Project.

But, for the last 35-40 years, sushi has become ubiquitous and you're missing the (fishing) boat.  Just as some golf courses are an acquired taste for the uninitiated, eating sushi is a bit like a geisha girl - it looks pretty strange, but once you undress it and put it in your mouth, pretty fucking tasty.     
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 12:01:52 AM by Gib Papazian »

Tim_Weiman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2020, 10:12:26 PM »
Barney,

Good thread topic, but to clarify one point first.  I only posted on the HT thread to specifically call out that I'm not a fan of the course in large part due to so called GCA values of width, options, etc.  It in fact doesn't get a pass from many of on this board as a counter point to VKs OP.

But to the question of this thread, I took a look at the Golf Digest top 25 list and one of them would certainly be on my not interested in seeing list with 3 other possibles.

11 - Winged Foot West - A difficult test, that even beats up the pros.  Fits the general theme thou, lots of trees, punishing rough with narrow fairways, long holes, and very well protected around the greens.  Just doesn't look fun in the slightest even if its a terrific US Open-like venue.  It'd be a relentless bogey/double bogey train.

Three other maybes.

21- Whistling Straights - Very difficult course, I'd anticipate a fair few Xs on my card.  Bunkering seems to be way overdone, even if it does seems to be a nice setting.
22 - Oak Hills - Aesthetically this course isn't appealing from what I've seen in pictures, but would probably need more info.
25 - Wade Hampton - I'd also need more information to confirm, but its hard to see whats compelling about it.
Kalen,


Regarding Whistling Straights, I don’t actually think the bunkering is overdone, but you do have to accept that a very large percent of the bunkers are out of play and exist purely for aesthetic reasons. Usually, I don’t favor that sort of thing, but WS has many shots that are fun to play and that is what got my attention, not the bunkers.



Tim Weiman

Mark Pritchett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2020, 10:24:09 PM »
Great points Tim.  I agree WS is better than most on here would care to admit. 

Mark Pritchett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2020, 10:43:25 PM »
Barny,


Heresy alert: I don’t care if I ever play Augusta. I’ve never been to the Masters; my purely intellectual curiosity is probably limited to studying the putting surfaces (#14 & #17 in particular come to mind). Beyond that - and the fact the city is a piece of shit - the course strikes me as an amalgamation of endless tinkering, aimed solely at one week a year.

My two opportunities to play it came and went - too tough to work around my schedule - but in truth, if I had moved heaven and earth, it was doable.

After spending a day on the grounds, smart money has me on the couch next to Mike Young, watching on T.V.

In fact, I’ve never even bothered to tag along with homies to the Masters. I suppose I’ll finally go next year, but I’m more interested in seeing an early practice round (or when nobody is on the course) than fighting a hoard of patrons. I’m sure I can get a pimento sandwich on Tuesday - but doubtful it will hold a candle to an Olympic Club burger-dog.
 


Gib,


Why were you in Augusta if not to attend the Masters?  I would be happy show you around our “piece of shit city” should you find yourself in the area to study two greens at ANGC.  I would recommend you study all eighteen, but what do I know. PS-I love the burger dog at Olympic.


Mark

MKrohn

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2020, 10:53:27 PM »

John, I get the space station might be expensive but apart from the present situation, what's stopping you going to Egypt?


Sew a Canadian* flag on your backpack and set sail. It's a wonderful place.




* I'd recommend an Australian flag but US punters are terrible at doing the accent

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2020, 11:16:59 PM »

John, I get the space station might be expensive but apart from the present situation, what's stopping you going to Egypt?


Sew a Canadian* flag on your backpack and set sail. It's a wonderful place.




* I'd recommend an Australian flag but US punters are terrible at doing the accent


What is stopping me going to Egypt is the most boring story of all. I'm scared. I don't see becoming less scared with age being in my future.

William_G

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2020, 11:39:12 PM »
Great points Tim.  I agree WS is better than most on here would care to admit.


LOL Mark


Straits sucks the big one as does the Irish course next to it


agree to disagree


cheers
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2020, 11:45:58 PM »
William,
Some people don’t like links golf.  Does that mean St. Andrews is a poor design?


I am not telling you what to like or not like.  I am just saying (very similar to Mike Malone’s thread about a pro visiting one time and making strong comments about Rolling Green or any golf course), that the best courses need much more than one go around to assess them fairly.  If we disagree on that so be it.
/quote]


so your are saying that HT is a great design for a huge housing/resort development on low lands in the Carolina's?


i'd say if it weren't for the PGA Tour it would be essentially game over


try routing the Old Course and New Course through condos, geez


get over it,do you like Chick fil-A too?


this is absurd


over and out
It's all about the golf!

Gib_Papazian

Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2020, 01:27:43 AM »
Mark,


Me and a couple of my GCA cabal were rolling through Augusta on the way to Succession and Chechessee Creek. No offense on the "piece of shit" crack since an army of grifters and drifters have turned (what was once) the most beautiful city on Earth into a sewer of schizophrenics defecating on the street - and the highest number of car burglaries x2 in America.


However, let's be honest, even if Mr. Clean was the Augusta mascot, the place would still be marginal at best. Walking down the street, getting the cold stare stink-eye from the locals was a bit unsettling. I live in a place where nobody gives a shit what color your are - but when we finally found a decent hotel, in came a parade of hustlers and their brown sugars du jour, renting rooms on-the-side by the hour, without management knowing.


Don't hate me, but the only place we found to eat that did not scream "focus group driven national chain," was a big-ass sports bar with cornbread and ribs so greasy, they kept a pair of heart paddles at every table and a cardiologist on staff, who also doubled as a fry cook.


One of the guys got taken home by your basic Farrah-do, married and divorced twice by age 26, three kids by two different guys (although the paternity test was inconclusive about the one with kinky hair), halter top and chipped fingernail polish. Evidently, she was a former prom queen who flunked out of hair salon school, but apparently she was quite a romp.


Having no interest in bringing home syphilitic madness to our lovely wives, we hunkered down at the Savannah River Brewing joint and tried to separate the Walmart shoppers from the Bass Pro Shop hicks. After a while, it became a blur of pink hot pants and cutoff vests, so we fled back to our room and passed out to the sound of gunshots and sirens.

I never did see Butler Cabin, maybe we were on the wrong side of town . . . .


     


 






 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 04:55:44 PM by Gib Papazian »

MKrohn

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Does anyone care about where you haven't been and don't want to go?
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2020, 05:51:32 AM »

John, I get the space station might be expensive but apart from the present situation, what's stopping you going to Egypt?


Sew a Canadian* flag on your backpack and set sail. It's a wonderful place.




* I'd recommend an Australian flag but US punters are terrible at doing the accent


What is stopping me going to Egypt is the most boring story of all. I'm scared. I don't see becoming less scared with age being in my future.



Fair enough, it's not exactly a risk free destination, but what is these days.


Because we (Australians) grew up in the asre end of the world, we are by nature travellers.


Generalisation upcoming.....when I'm in the US I'm often surprised about how dangerous the rest of the world is perceived to be. Was this always the case?