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David_Tepper

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Re: Golf and insurance costs
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2020, 11:44:10 AM »
Thomas D. -

As this topic has been discussed a few times before, I think we will have to agree to disagree.

While there may be situations where people on a adjacent fairway are obscured by a stand of trees and the player striking the errant "1.68" missile" might not see them to warn them with a shout of "fore," there is no doubt in my mind that the stand of trees will, in the vast majority of cases, intercept/deflect the errant "1.68" missile" and prevent the people on the adjacent fairway from being hit.

I have hit a lot of shots over the years into the trees lining the fairways of the courses I mentioned earlier (and other courses as well). Very rarely have those shots made it thru to the adjacent/parallel fairway. If you ever come to San Francisco, I will be happy to show you those courses.

DT 




Adam Clayman

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Re: Golf and insurance costs
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2020, 12:30:16 PM »
Wait! You mean they aren't 90% air?

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

David_Tepper

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Re: Golf and insurance costs
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2020, 12:41:51 PM »
No, they're not. ;)

Kalen Braley

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Re: Golf and insurance costs
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2020, 12:45:09 PM »
No, they're not. ;)


David,

I wouldn't doubt that's true, but it doesn't mean a ball can travel thru it unimpeded, but more based on how the branches and leaves are configured.

A exercise ball is 99% air by volume, but try hitting a golf ball thru it....

Thomas Dai

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Re: Golf and insurance costs
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2020, 01:02:54 PM »
No, they're not. ;)
David,
I wouldn't doubt that's true, but it doesn't mean a ball can travel thru it unimpeded, but more based on how the branches and leaves are configured.
A exercise ball is 99% air by volume, but try hitting a golf ball thru it....
And who can tell in advance which way the ball is going to rebound when it hits the tree trunk or a branch. And at times of the year when the leaves aren’t present .......
Atb

Kalen Braley

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Re: Golf and insurance costs
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2020, 01:19:22 PM »
Thomas,

Think of it in terms of a bumper or crumple zones on cars, its not about not getting hit per se, its about absorbing enough of the energy so the damage isn't bad/lethal...

P.S. I'm guessing getting hit by a golf ball is extremely low %.  In my 25 years of playing only been hit twice, the aforementioned and a ball that was already rolling on the ground before it hit my shoe.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 01:34:58 PM by Kalen Braley »

Thomas Dai

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Re: Golf and insurance costs
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2020, 04:22:02 PM »
Thomas,
Think of it in terms of a bumper or crumple zones on cars, its not about not getting hit per se, its about absorbing enough of the energy so the damage isn't bad/lethal...
P.S. I'm guessing getting hit by a golf ball is extremely low %.  In my 25 years of playing only been hit twice, the aforementioned and a ball that was already rolling on the ground before it hit my shoe.
I’ll leave it to others to explain this position to the lady at the Paris Ryder Cup.
Atb


Later edit - see this thread also - [size=78%]https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,68497.0.html[/size]
« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 03:38:38 AM by Thomas Dai »

Kalen Braley

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Re: Golf and insurance costs
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2020, 04:29:35 PM »
Thomas,
Think of it in terms of a bumper or crumple zones on cars, its not about not getting hit per se, its about absorbing enough of the energy so the damage isn't bad/lethal...
P.S. I'm guessing getting hit by a golf ball is extremely low %.  In my 25 years of playing only been hit twice, the aforementioned and a ball that was already rolling on the ground before it hit my shoe.
I’ll leave it to others to explain this position to the lady at the Paris Ryder Cup.
Atb


Attending golf tournaments, with wall to wall people, several rows deep, is always going to be much higher risk, that goes without saying.  But day to day play, there are relatively few people around or in range on the average full shot.

P.S.  It should also be noted, she was hit on the fly, without being slowed by a tree or any other outside agency, which is kind of the point.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Golf and insurance
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2021, 04:32:26 AM »
Raising this old thread particularly in view of Brysons tee shot on the 4th at Torrey Pines in the US Open yesterday and comments made recently about pros generally not shouting "Fore" very much - - https://twitter.com/i/status/1406345375737421826
Also I'd be interesting to know where ultimate financial liability rests (assuming nothing hidden 'out of court') should an unpleasant incident occur?
With the player? With the event organiser? Even with the equipment provider? Or just 'tough luck' on whoever is injured?
I imagine different Countries, States etc have different laws and insurance procedures that cover such situations which might complicate matters.
As an aside I heard it reported recently that Brooks paid the medical bills for the lady who lost the sight in one eye when his ball hit her at the Paris Ryder Cup.
Thoughts?
atb



Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf and insurance liability
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2021, 04:51:54 AM »
If I attend a golf tourny I generally assume the risk. However, if a chap intentionally hits a shot into the crowd and I get hit and badly injured, then I am seriously thinking about a civil suit. That isn't much different to me hitting a shot when I know other people are in a higher than normal risk situation. You just don't do it. That is my issue with trees. It is harder to identify the risk. We trust trees to make others safe when that is often not the case. I want to see what's around me and make my own decision about when to hit and where to walk. My safety is mostly my responsibility, so let me get on with it.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf and insurance
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2021, 12:16:18 PM »
Raising this old thread particularly in view of Brysons tee shot on the 4th at Torrey Pines in the US Open yesterday and comments made recently about pros generally not shouting "Fore" very much - - https://twitter.com/i/status/1406345375737421826
Also I'd be interesting to know where ultimate financial liability rests (assuming nothing hidden 'out of court') should an unpleasant incident occur?
With the player? With the event organiser? Even with the equipment provider? Or just 'tough luck' on whoever is injured?
I imagine different Countries, States etc have different laws and insurance procedures that cover such situations which might complicate matters.
As an aside I heard it reported recently that Brooks paid the medical bills for the lady who lost the sight in one eye when his ball hit her at the Paris Ryder Cup.
Thoughts?
atb


For the distance the professionals hit the ball nowadays would a spectator be able to even hear the warning?  I am serious. 


The very first lesson I learned as a caddy was when someone is yelling fore do not look for the ball and turtle up.  This is not a lesson most golfers have learned and definitely not spectators.
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf and insurance
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2021, 12:47:27 PM »
Raising this old thread particularly in view of Brysons tee shot on the 4th at Torrey Pines in the US Open yesterday and comments made recently about pros generally not shouting "Fore" very much - - https://twitter.com/i/status/1406345375737421826
Also I'd be interesting to know where ultimate financial liability rests (assuming nothing hidden 'out of court') should an unpleasant incident occur?
With the player? With the event organiser? Even with the equipment provider? Or just 'tough luck' on whoever is injured?
I imagine different Countries, States etc have different laws and insurance procedures that cover such situations which might complicate matters.
As an aside I heard it reported recently that Brooks paid the medical bills for the lady who lost the sight in one eye when his ball hit her at the Paris Ryder Cup.
Thoughts?
atb


For the distance the professionals hit the ball nowadays would a spectator be able to even hear the warning?  I am serious. 


The very first lesson I learned as a caddy was when someone is yelling fore do not look for the ball and turtle up.  This is not a lesson most golfers have learned and definitely not spectators.

I don't fuck about. If a bag is near I duck and cover behind it, if not just I turtle and hope for the best. I will say it sure is nice to see guys before they hit. I don't know how many times I told mates to pay attention.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Steve Wilson

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Re: Golf and insurance liability
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2021, 02:54:28 PM »
As this thread has strayed a bit from the original post (imagine that!) perhaps my comment isn't as relevant, but when I played Royal Dornoch for the first time in 1997 I was offered golfer's insurance, I presume for the duration of the round, for 1.50 which would protect from causing either personal or property damage.  I got it, but I have never been offered it since.  I don't know if that implies that the course has blanket protection for itself and players or if I'm just living dangerously.


And yes, if someone yells fore I don't gawk about.  I duck and cover.


Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Golf and insurance
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2021, 07:40:59 PM »

Also I'd be interesting to know where ultimate financial liability rests (assuming nothing hidden 'out of court') should an unpleasant incident occur?
 
With the player? With the event organiser? Even with the equipment provider? Or just 'tough luck' on whoever is injured?
I imagine different Countries, States etc have different laws and insurance procedures that cover such situations which might complicate matters.

Thoughts?
atb


The tort laws of the country/state where the accident occurs will play heavily on any financial compensation that the victim might receive. It would be best if an attorney responded, but as an insurance broker, I have to say that the financial risks of people being hit by golf balls is adequately handled by General Liability insurance, and there is a robust insurance market that keeps the premiums in line.


Again, this will vary by country/state, but anyone who steps on a golf course is assuming risk a risk of being hit by a golf ball. There would have to be unusual circumstances for a golfer/golf course designer/golf club/tournament organizer etal to be found liable for financial compensation.


For example, say it is a really slow round and I do something stupid like trying to hit a ball over the heads of my buddies because i "know" my carry distance is 230 yards, and I injure someone. I am negligent. (And the Personal Liability section of my Homeowners insurance will likely respond and pay the damages.) If I accidentally rope hook one and injure someone on an adjacent fairway, my insurance policy will protect me, but probably not have to pay anything. The point is that "assumption or risk" is a well-established legal precedent that will mitigate against huge financial awards.


I agree with others that claims paid due to injuries on the golf course pale in comparison to accidents that occur in the parking lot and restaurant. I don't mean to minimize the trauma of those seriously injured by golf balls, but the cost of Liability insurance is not a significant number on a per member basis.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Golf and insurance liability
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2021, 03:06:15 AM »
Thank you Bill. Just the kind of detail I was hoping someone would post.
atb

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Golf and insurance liability
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2021, 10:34:25 AM »
As this thread has strayed a bit from the original post (imagine that!) perhaps my comment isn't as relevant, but when I played Royal Dornoch for the first time in 1997 I was offered golfer's insurance, I presume for the duration of the round, for 1.50 which would protect from causing either personal or property damage.  I got it, but I have never been offered it since.  I don't know if that implies that the course has blanket protection for itself and players or if I'm just living dangerously.


And yes, if someone yells fore I don't gawk about.  I duck and cover.


Actually, that sounds like a perfect add on for golf courses to offer to raise revenues.  If they can get several golfers to pay part of their insurance premium, I doubt the insurance companies would mind, unless that clause somehow caused golfers to intentionally aim at houses, other golfers, etc., which I presume could be covered in the rules and regulations, and which would be investigated before any payment was made.


Many golf courses currently offer hole in one and closest to the hole prizes as additional fee options for a few bucks, which are popular because they aren't mandatory.  If kept low enough, I think many golfers would opt for that.  Even at 40,000 rounds and $1, it would help pay the insurance premiums, and perhaps a lot more.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Golf and insurance liability
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2021, 10:52:23 AM »
To Bill's point, as architects, we know golfers assume risk and for their own play, responsibility.  [size=78%]I[/size] have taken golf specific seminars on golf ball strikes and liabilities as it relates to course design.


Generally, our designs need to meet the maddeningly vague standard of "preponderance" of golf balls off adjacent properties and fairways.  We tend to set higher standards for adjacent roads (where a missed shot could disable a driver causing multiple deaths) then adjacent land uses (where an adjacent ball strike would likely kill or injure just one person) and lastly the golf course. Even there, I am cognizant of adjacent fairways, where golfers are spread out, which get less consideration than adjacent greens or tees where 4-8 people (or more on certain tees) will be congregated, perhaps increasing the potential for injury.


Design tools include pure distance separation, maximum angles of dispersion (i.e., the "safety cone"), and other mitigation, like trees, fences and netting, up slopes at the perimeter to kill roll, vertical differences, etc. Also to be considered is the actual visual line of play, which in the case of open doglegs, isn't always down the intended line of play as marked on plans.  I saw (and declined the opportunity to be involved) in a legal case where the homeowner was getting pelted even though he was close to a suitable distance from the fw centerline.  The only problem was, a huge tree blocked play to the center of the fw and he was very close to the angle golfers had to play.  Just an example.


Our charge is basically to avoid repetitive injury situations.  Or, as one lawyer told me, "The first injury is on the house."  At some point, if there are repeated incidents (including near misses) the course is probably legally smart or even obligated to provide some kind of mitigation.    This is just my observation, but I suspect over time, the law favors those who are struck more and more.  Even houses built decades after the golf course now presume their safety is the golf course's responsibility, even at they build 10,000 SF of a house in a 6,000 SF bag, and closer to the course than it "needs to be."


Given all the old courses that are built to what we now presume to be obsolete standards for new courses, the cases get interesting.  Testifying that "there are thousands of courses out there that are tighter" isn't really a strong defense.  So, as Bill notes, given the variety of laws across 50 states, and the unique nature of each situation, there are likely to be some, shall we say, interesting results if these things go to court.


As you can probably guess from my more scientific bent towards some aspects of design, I have taken a lot of shot data to set my personal design standards, but would never publish those, as the entire industry is reluctant to set any kind of safety standard for
design, given how random most ball strikes are.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ian Andrew

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Re: Golf and insurance liability
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2021, 01:47:47 PM »
This is a subject that no architect really wants to talk about in an open forum because no client they have ever had wants to be part of this discussion. I can think of five lawsuits in Ontario. Two for personal injury (both settled - btw, one had ball hit over a mature tree line) and three involving safety issues off course (forced changes to all three clubs - but last one set a new precedent making clubs responsible - cited now in every case).

Our laws are simple "now", you are responsible for what happens off property.

I carry liability insurance. It's very expensive. Have not had to use it, but I am required to have it to practice in a number of States under my arrangements.

Tom's tree example is the perfect explanation of what we face. You can solve every problem. The question becomes what do you solve and what do you live with. It's a harder answer when you also face the responsibility for your choices and you don't like to ever spend someone else's money irresponsibly.


« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 01:53:03 PM by Ian Andrew »
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Thomas Dai

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Re: Golf and insurance liability
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2021, 02:06:41 PM »
Thank you Jeff and Ian.
Insights from insiders in the business are always interesting. Extra thanks are really due given Ians point about the awkwardness for architects of debating this subject in an open forum discussion.
And then we come to the deliberate hitting of a shot by a player over say a blind brow towards an area where spectators are likely to have positioned themselves without shouting "Fore" and where the ultimate financial liability for such an action rests.
atb
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 02:11:30 PM by Thomas Dai »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Golf injuries/incidents (including liability and insurance)
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2021, 03:12:43 PM »
I believe Ian and I are more concerned with everyday play at everyday courses more than tournaments.  I do believe spectators have some kind of waiver on their tickets.  A pro with prodigious power shortcutting a dogleg couldn't be considered malicious behavior.  I don't really know who would be responsible.  I suppose someone could argue that the tournament itself could have or should have been aware of where balls may land and rope those areas off.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim_Coleman

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Re: Golf injuries/incidents (including liability and insurance)
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2021, 03:17:16 PM »
   Here’s a personal example that, fortunately, had a happy ending - probably because the “victim” was a good guy. 
   We removed all the trees between two parallel holes a couple of years ago.  I pulled a drive toward the parallel hole that would have been stopped by the trees. Instead it hit a player in the forehead who was playing the adjacent hole and was out of sight until he appeared after ascending a hill - too late for me to have yelled “fore.”  Luckily, he was not seriously injured, went on to birdie the hole, and nothing came of it.  It was, nonetheless, very scary, and I was quite shook up.
   The suggestion earlier that tree removal might lesson risk can cut both ways.

 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 03:30:44 PM by Jim_Coleman »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Golf injuries/incidents (including liability and insurance)
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2021, 04:04:41 PM »
Jim,


And it probably cuts more in favor of trees being safer.  With no trees, and parallel holes running opposite directions, the course would still have to presume the golfer in the line of fire had the forethought to watch players on the tee of an adjacent hole, the eyesight to see a fast moving white pellet quickly, and reflexes to avoid being struck after he/she saw it.


I think (but opinion, I guess) that the design defense mechanisms against ball strikes on adjacent golf areas would be pure distance between, safety cone, avoid locating concentrating areas (i.e., waiting on tees or putting on greens) in higher risk areas (like slice side of a tee 200 yards out), and then mitigation if the angle or distance isn't suitable, i.e., trees, perhaps layered in tall, medium and low to cover all possibilities, netting, fence (even wrought iron fences along the property line stop most shots if they are coming into a steep angle to the fence), plant/flower walls, etc.  Sometimes, those trees can be put on the front right of the tee likely to cause problems, knocking down shots that direction before they really get started.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach