[MCirba]

Pat,
Yes, exactly, although each of the search engines are sometimes finicky and take some knowing.   For instance, in some I'll get completely different result sets from "Cobb's Creek" and "Cobbs Creek".   

[Buck Wolter]

Pat,
Yes, exactly, although each of the search engines are sometimes finicky and take some knowing.   For instance, in some I'll get completely different result sets from "Cobb's Creek" and "Cobbs Creek".

Could you search Watson and Owatonna (I tried the free one)? The old pro at OCC had said a pro from Minneapolis had come down to design the original 9 holes there and I have always wondered if it was Watson, #'s 1, 6 and especially 10 would be at home at WBYC.

[MCirba]

Pat,
Yes, exactly, although each of the search engines are sometimes finicky and take some knowing.   For instance, in some I'll get completely different result sets from "Cobb's Creek" and "Cobbs Creek".

Could you search Watson and Owatonna (I tried the free one)? The old pro at OCC had said a pro from Minneapolis had come down to design the original 9 holes there and I have always wondered if it was Watson, #'s 1, 6 and especially 10 would be at home at WBYC.

Buck,

Sure, happy to help.   Let me see what I can dig up.

[MCirba]

Buck,

I've tried to run down Owatonna Country Club but not much to be found.

Tom Vardon was in the area for quite some time and designed quite a few golf courses in MN, ND, etc., so he might be the most likely suspect.

[Buck Wolter]

Buck,

I've tried to run down Owatonna Country Club but not much to be found.

Tom Vardon was in the area for quite some time and designed quite a few golf courses in MN, ND, etc., so he might be the most likely suspect.

Mike -Thanks for checking -- much appreciated.

[Niall C]

Mark Fine and I dove into Watson while working on Berkeley CC (Bay Area). While his name is on the plans, it became obvious to us during the research that Robert Hunter carried out the work. Hunter was a founder and basically drove the club's formation. Berkeley is where Hunter "caught the bug" of golf architecture, 1920-22.


Wastson remained involved at Berkeley, but he pretty much allowed Hunter to make the field decisions. Sean Tully (Meadow Club greenkeeper) is perhaps the "guru" of Watson. In fact, Sean found the "real" photo of Watson while helping us get more info on Berkeley — the photo in the Architects of Golf (Cornish-Whitten) it turns out is NOT William Watson!

Forrest, Mark was incorrect.  That photo is of Watson. It’s just taken at a bad upward angle. Also, I found the best photo(s) to date of Watson. One with his wife in their shop and a portrait photo, which allows you to see the similarities between it and the Cornish & Whitten photo.


Joe Gladke’s article is the best information to date on Watson in Minnesota.  Joe is in my opinion, the best source next to the late Tom MacWood, Sean Tully and myself.  Someday, hopefully Joe and I will get to do further information regarding Watson out here in LA, where the St. Andrew-born son and his wife set-up shop and used as their home base; and where he died and where he is buried.  The City of the Angels...

Was William born in St Andrews ? I wonder if he played up the St Andrews connection at the expense of Cupar on the basis it sounded better for his customers ? Both William and his brother had stints as Secretary to Cupar GC and there father played there as well. I don't doubt the father being a member of the R&A and that they all played there on occasion but the Cupar connection appears a lot stronger. Just saying 


Niall
[size=78%]    [/size]

[Sven Nilsen]

Born in Dura Dun, 8 miles from St. Andrews and attended the University of St. Andrews.


The early articles on Watson's arrival in the US note he was from "old St. Andrews."

[Niall C]

Thanks Sven,


Dura Den might be only 8 miles from St Andrews but it is a good bit closer to Cupar. Sometimes search engines will tell you St Andrews for a place of birth which can sometimes mean the St Andrews area rather than the town. I'd have thought that William would have been born at home (I don't think they had maternity hospitals back then but again could be wrong) so do you know if the family were living in St Andrews at the time or were they already encamped at the Laurels in Dura Den ?


At the end of the day it's not really a big point but at a time when many reasonably good golfers with a Scottish accent were looking to get a gig as a professional in the US, it probably paid to play up the home of golf angle to give himself an edge over the competition. What I find interesting is that here's a guy who is relatively mature compared to the average golfing emigrant as well as being a very experienced manager and businessman, and he's looking to make a living out of golf. Given his background in manufacture and production it's perhaps little wonder he moved from teaching to course design and construction etc.


As for the Cupar GC angle, the club were playing out of Ladybank at the time Watson was there although towards the end before the family upped sticks to the US, the club sometimes shared the Hilltarvit club's course in town and eventually the two clubs amalgamated. The club website suggests this happened 1895/1896 (from memory) and at about that time redesigned the course.


Given Watson was one of the club's best players if not the best player, and that he was a prominent member, I wonder if he had a hand in that redesign ? Haven't found anything to suggest he was and just speculation on my part.


Anyway, carry on all, I'm enjoying finding out what he got up to in the US.


Niall   

[Niall C]

Just checked the Scotlands People website and they have 2 William Watsons born in Fife in 1860. One was born near Glenrothes so I think you can discount him, and the other was born in Kemback which basically is the very small village beside Dura Den which itself is a very small village, so I think you can probably say that's our man.


Niall

[Jim McCann]

Niall,
William Watson is one of the 100 architects profiled in the Top 100 Golf Courses website.
Here's a link to the page that was created for him last year:
https://www.top100golfcourses.com/architect/willie-watson
Cheers.

[Niall C]

Jim


Hope you are well and getting some golf in now courses are open.


Thanks for the link. I actually had a read at that yesterday. This thread caused me to start googling Watson to see what courses he'd been involved with and I came across the link to your site. The only quibble I have with the story on your site is the suggestion Watson was enticed over to the US. It seems to me that it was far more likely that as a result of his fathers bankruptcy and the loss of his business, the family moved to the US to start a new life and golf was one of the opportunities that presented itself. I can't see the whole family deciding to go to the US simply on the back of William getting a job offer to lay out a course.


Niall

[Kevin_Reilly]

Niall,
William Watson is one of the 100 architects profiled in the Top 100 Golf Courses website.
Here's a link to the page that was created for him last year:
https://www.top100golfcourses.com/architect/willie-watson
Cheers.

The Watson list is pretty poorly compiled, IMO.  Maybe some of his California courses (like my Orinda, and nearby Diablo and a good part of Claremont) are under the radar screen, but to credit Olympic Ocean (completely redone by Weiskopf and Morrish) to him is a puzzle.

[Niall C]

Kevin


In fairness to the Top 100 site it lists courses that Watson designed, redesigned or worked on. It's not claiming sole credit for Watson or at least it doesn't seem that way to me. The fact it doesn't go into the design history of each course doesn't really mean that much either because it's a list about Watson, not an explanation of the design history for each course. That was the way I took it anyway.


In relation to the Olympic Ocean course, what did Weiskopf and Morrish do ? Did they totally redesign the course as in completely new routing ?


Niall 

[Niall C]

Does anyone know if Watson ever wrote anything about golf course architecture ?


Niall

[David_Tepper]

In relation to the Olympic Ocean course, what did Weiskopf and Morrish do ? Did they totally redesign the course as in completely new routing ?

Niall -

In the 40 years I have played golf at Olympic, the Ocean Course has had multiple iterations and renovations. My guess is little or none of Mr. Watson's handiwork remains. In some ways I think the best version of the course was the one I first saw in 1980, which had three par-4's west of Skyline Blvd., on what is now the par-3 course.


The Weiskopf & Morrish version of the course was a substantial change. About half the current holes, mostly on the back-9, did not exist prior to their work. In some cases the old playing corridors were reversed, in others they were eliminated entirely.

It will be interesting to see what recommendations Gil Hanse suggests for the course going forward.


DT

[JC Jones]

The provenance of the routing is important, but the greens are a huge part of what makes the course so attractive and I would love to know who built them.  There's no way Ross was around for that part, so surely the others must receive some credit for the place.

Mr. Doak,


IF Watson (or Ross or Vardon) did in fact route the golf course, would the basic design principals of the green have been in his plan? For example, on a hole with a distinctive green like the 12th, wouldn't the architect have to design that hole from the putting surface backwards? I suppose the devil is in the shaping details, however you would have to assume the first architect would get a lions share of the credit for the greens.


Unless I'm totally off base and in most cases back then an associate or on site engineer would contour and build the greens as he saw fit to the strategy of the hole?




Question for others - did Watson have any known associates that was known to do construction work on his behalf? In particular in Minnesota?

That's an interesting question that I've been curious about since a recent (re) visit to Camden CC, which is noted as an 18 hole Ross course.  In fact, the original course was done by Travis and they brought in Ross when they moved the clubhouse.  At that time he redid all of the green sites (they have his original drawings to show them), but with the exception of the 12th hole (the only original Ross hole on the course), the rest of the course plays through the Travis corridors.


To the larger point, which is the same I understand for WBYC, its largely irrelevant because the course as it is today is wonderful and one of the finest in the Carolinas.

[Sven Nilsen]

At the time the first holes at WBYC were being built, the idea of a dedicated associate for a golf architect was a bit of a novelty.  MacDonald had Raynor, but their ongoing relationship was just being established.  Ross was yet to bring on at this point, and his career as an architect was just taking off at this point (although he did have associates at the time he worked on WBYC).


The idea what we would consider a construction supervisor worked pretty much on a local basis.  It would be a few years before there were a handful of guys who made a career of this on a traveling basis.


Sven

[Tim Martin]

The provenance of the routing is important, but the greens are a huge part of what makes the course so attractive and I would love to know who built them.  There's no way Ross was around for that part, so surely the others must receive some credit for the place.

Mr. Doak,


IF Watson (or Ross or Vardon) did in fact route the golf course, would the basic design principals of the green have been in his plan? For example, on a hole with a distinctive green like the 12th, wouldn't the architect have to design that hole from the putting surface backwards? I suppose the devil is in the shaping details, however you would have to assume the first architect would get a lions share of the credit for the greens.


Unless I'm totally off base and in most cases back then an associate or on site engineer would contour and build the greens as he saw fit to the strategy of the hole?




Question for others - did Watson have any known associates that was known to do construction work on his behalf? In particular in Minnesota?

That's an interesting question that I've been curious about since a recent (re) visit to Camden CC, which is noted as an 18 hole Ross course.  In fact, the original course was done by Travis and they brought in Ross when they moved the clubhouse.  At that time he redid all of the green sites (they have his original drawings to show them), but with the exception of the 12th hole (the only original Ross hole on the course), the rest of the course plays through the Travis corridors.


To the larger point, which is the same I understand for WBYC, its largely irrelevant because the course as it is today is wonderful and one of the finest in the Carolinas.

Jason-I like Camden. It had a great booster the likes of Jamie Bryan. R.I.P.

[Niall C]

In relation to the Olympic Ocean course, what did Weiskopf and Morrish do ? Did they totally redesign the course as in completely new routing ?

Niall -

In the 40 years I have played golf at Olympic, the Ocean Course has had multiple iterations and renovations. My guess is little or none of Mr. Watson's handiwork remains. In some ways I think the best version of the course was the one I first saw in 1980, which had three par-4's west of Skyline Blvd., on what is now the par-3 course.


The Weiskopf & Morrish version of the course was a substantial change. About half the current holes, mostly on the back-9, did not exist prior to their work. In some cases the old playing corridors were reversed, in others they were eliminated entirely.

It will be interesting to see what recommendations Gil Hanse suggests for the course going forward.


DT

David


Thanks for that. The professional GCA's may disagree but I tend to think that the bulk of the design is contained within the routing, especially with the type of land you have there. Given all the mature timber on the course I imagined that the routing hadn't changed much but clearly not. Can you remember, when I was there was that the Weiskopf Morrish iteration ? You may recall they were redoing half a dozen of the green complexes when I was there.


Niall

[Forrest Richardson]

Re: The photo of the "real" Watson, if I am wrong of course I'll stand corrected. The photo Sean Tully found, he claims, is Watson and it in no way resembles the photo (man in straw hat) that appears in The Architects of Golf (Cornish-Whitten). I have inquired to Sean again, as it has been a long while since he found the photo I reference.

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