Dumbarnie Links

[Mark Fedeli]

Foreigners paying a juiced up rate to subsidize the reduced cost of play for locals on whose land the course was built sounds fine to me. Trump could learn a few lessons from that with his insulting pricing at Ferry Point, where, after the city put tens of millions into building it, city residents get a nearly meaningless discount compared to non-residents.

Ferry Point had public subsidy from what you say whereas Dumbarnie didn't as far as I'm aware. The locals as you put it didn't own the land, it was held privately. Furthermore the higher greenfees aren't subsidising the locals, it's what the owner needs to charge to encourage the locals to play there. It's a commercial concern and if they reckoned they could charge the locals more they undoubtedly would and maybe will do in future years.


Niall

Understood, Niall. For Dumbarnie I didn’t mean that the locals literally owned the land, but that as locals, they should receive preferential treatment. It’s still their land, in a philosophical sense. Scotland is their country, and they aren’t making more of it. But I’m not trying to start a debate about the merits of private property. 

[Michael Whitaker]

Lou

I agree with you on the differential pricing. It has always grated with me even though I benefit from it... but it does seem to be an American concept imported over here.

Niall

Niall - I don’t believe you can blame the Yanks for this one. We have nothing in the US resembling the guest vs visitor fee disparity that exists in the UK. At Deal, for example, a member’s guest can play for as little as £25, whereas it costs a visitor at least £170 in the summer season. At most US clubs the guest fee is closer to what one would consider a visitor fee. Anyway, most clubs don’t offer “visitor” play. Some offer “unaccompanied guests” (which are sort of like visitors) but, you can’t just phone up and make a time... connections are required through a member or one’s home club professional. I’ve never experienced anything like the system in place in the UK here in the US. The UK system definitely adds value to being a club member as one can entertain guests freely. And, it also makes networking a valuable skill for the traveling golfer! 😉

Mike,

The only example I can think of is a State run facility like Bethpage. A quick check shows NY residents get a reduced rate over those from out of state. Not exactly like-for-like, but on the face of it, locals are given preferential rates.

Which makes sense, no?

Ciao

It makes sense for a government run facility like Bethpage.

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike,


I don't think Niall was referring to member's guests rates but the Fife resident, Scottish resident and the rest all having different rates. I am not even sure that Dumbarnie will even have memberships or not.

I know Jon... my point is that the preferential reduced fee for “locals” is baked into the UK system. It feels natural for a public facility to offer locals significantly reduced rates because that concept has existed for decades at clubs. You won’t find that in the States... except as Tim and Sean have noted at government owned facilities where tax dollars are involved.


I have to say it has always offended me that I am charged £100 or more higher fee to play just because I live farther away from the course than the guy in the group ahead who lives in the next county. It’s a supply and demand business, I get it, but I think the rate structure is more cultural than purely economic.

[Sean_A]

Mike,

I don't think Niall was referring to member's guests rates but the Fife resident, Scottish resident and the rest all having different rates. I am not even sure that Dumbarnie will even have memberships or not.

I know Jon... my point is that the preferential reduced fee for “locals” is baked into the UK system. It feels natural for a public facility to offer locals significantly reduced rates because that concept has existed for decades at clubs. You won’t find that in the States... except as Tim and Sean have noted at government owned facilities where tax dollars are involved.

I have to say it has always offended me that I am charged £100 or more higher fee to play just because I live farther away from the course than the guy in the group ahead who lives in the next county. It’s a supply and demand business, I get it, but I think the rate structure is more cultural than purely economic.

The Scottish Golf rate is essentially a club membership benefit similar to reciprocals. The local rate is good PR for the planning process which owners hope generate good will and probably future business during slow periods. Being offended is more on you than the owners😎.

Ciao

[Michael Whitaker]

Offended is a poor choice of words on my part. I completely understand the concept of the scheme as a way of attracting local revenue when the “real” target audience are one-off holiday golfers with a lower monetary pain threshold. I still don’t like it.

[Kalen Braley]

I guess its all relative,

Here I sit in the US, just wishing for a private system like the UK where I could both access most private clubs to explore on a one-off basis and also be able join a local club at a very affordable annual rate. And why is it a bad thing for a private club to earn some good will from the locals by having a significant discounted rate for them?

Seems like everybody wins here, what am I missing?

[Michael Whitaker]

Kalen - you are missing anything. I guess it just depends which end of the stick you’re on. I, too, wish more US clubs offered visitor tee times, but that’s never going to happen with exclusivity being the primary motivating factor here.


As I think about it, a few courses on the South Carolina coast offer a type of hybrid scheme. For example, Caledonia & True Blue in Pawleys Island (two Mike Strantz courses) offer a joint annual membership for around $1800 per year + $25 fee per round. There are no restrictions on the number of rounds you can play, but you can only book 48 hours in advance... so, they are using this to sell open times at the last minute. This is in contrast to a fee of nearly $200 for a high season round. Pretty good value.

[Lou_Duran]

Two economic issues and one cultural seem to account for the differences between the UK and US systems.


The cultural first, thrift, especially in Scotland, which affects the economic factors.


Old UK clubs, some on common land, have a relatively low basis.  With lower maintenance costs for a variety of reasons, they don't need much relative to most US operations.


Supply and demand.  At the high end , there is great demand and limited supply, especially for Classic era "big name" clubs.  And Americans seem to be willing and able to spend more on things such as golf, big houses, fancy cars and restaurant meals.

[Niall C]

Mike and others

My mention of the differential rates being an American concept was a reference to the ownership ie. Mark Parsinen at Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart, and the US ownership at Dumbarnie. I had also assumed it was a familiar model for commercial operations in the US but appears not, but it certainly doesn't compare to the different guest and visitor rates at traditional members clubs in the UK.

As an aside I also had a look at Mach Dunes website and they have differential rates also and IIRC they are US owned. Trump seems to be the outlier of the big commercial courses in that they don't seem to differentiate.

Niall

[David_Tepper]

What about the Links Trust ticket at St. Andrews? Don't Oregon residents get a break at the Bandon courses?

[Jerry Kluger]

Here is another "new" course with high fees that will be paid by tourists and rather substantial fees that will be paid by locals. I doubt that you will see the locals playing during high season and they will play elsewhere after playing the course once.  With all this talk about the fees how about the C & C course which was turned down - I would guess that the fees there would be at least as high as this perhaps even higher.  BTW: Bandon and Sand Valley do not give substantial discounts to locals and not any discount during high season.  While I understand that the annual membership fees at  Trump Aberdeen and Turnberry while not cheap are not a bad deal.

[Sean_A]

Here is another "new" course with high fees that will be paid by tourists and rather substantial fees that will be paid by locals. I doubt that you will see the locals playing during high season and they will play elsewhere after playing the course once.  With all this talk about the fees how about the C & C course which was turned down - I would guess that the fees there would be at least as high as this perhaps even higher.  BTW: Bandon and Sand Valley do not give substantial discounts to locals and not any discount during high season.  While I understand that the annual membership fees at  Trump Aberdeen and Turnberry while not cheap are not a bad deal.

What exactly is your point Jerry?

While I loathe the concept of high price golf it doesn't matter in the least because that is one opinion on one approach. I can't fathom what the fuss is about. There are plenty of choices within a few hours of Dumbarnie. If it's too dear give it a miss. One has to be willing to walk away to even begin to have an impact.

Ciao

[Jerry Kluger]

Sean: My point is here is another new high end course which no doubt will attract the big buck trips where money is no object and Scots are complaining that they will have to pay half the going rate.  At the same time they complained that the C & C course will not be built but it too would be a very high end course and based upon Bandon and Sand Valley the locals might get a bit of a rate cut but not in high season.

[Mark Pearce]

It's a 5 mile drive from Elie.  I doubt I'll bother to play it when we're up in Fife this Summer.

[Bill Gayne]

The additional amount charged to American and overseas visitors is really a surcharge by the Scots for putting up with slow play and occasionally boorish behavior. Rightfully so.


The additional amount paid by Americans and overseas visitors provides justification for playing slow and occasionally boorish behavior. It goes like this "My god have you seen how much I'm paying, I'm going to take my time and enjoy the day and then go to the pub later and tell you about it." Rightfully so.

[Niall C]

Bill

I wish that were true. There are more than enough slow coaches over here with Scottish accents. 

Niall

[Niall C]

Sean: My point is here is another new high end course which no doubt will attract the big buck trips where money is no object and Scots are complaining that they will have to pay half the going rate.  At the same time they complained that the C & C course will not be built but it too would be a very high end course and based upon Bandon and Sand Valley the locals might get a bit of a rate cut but not in high season.

Jerry

In fairness it was Lou that complained first, and I don't blame him. Locals are by their very definition local and therefore can take the opportunity to play when it suits ie. when it's most affordable, whereas visitors have a restricted window of opportunity which is generally in high season and therefore compelled to pay the higher price if they want to play the course.

By way of example I've played CS and Kingsbarns at least half a dozen times each, Balmedie once and Turnberry several times and never paid more than £40 a round. Likewise with the various top clubs I've played in Scotland, I've never paid the full visitor fee. And I'm sure you can probably say something similar.

Niall

[Ben Stephens]

Theory - what happens if you have an overseas membership to a Scottish club like Dornoch and can you play Dumbarnie on the Scottish Golf rate rather than the full rack rate?

[Niall C]

Ben

Also, as far as I understand it, you can be a member of the SGU while not being a member of a club. Does that get you a reduced fee at Dumbarnie ?

As an aside, I understand that in New Zealand visitor fees at clubs are reduced if you are a member of another NZ club. I always thought that was a good idea and a good way of helping clubs.

Niall

[Jerry Kluger]

While we are talking expensive I doubt this type of trip to an Open Championship would not be quite so expensive:
https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1834874/masters-2020-7-person-package#latest

[Ian Galbraith]

Are top-class Scottish courses really any more expensive than their (accessible) equivalents in the US ? Genuine question.


The likes of Sawgrass and Pebble are eye-wateringly expensive. Most of the top courses seem to be inaccessible to joe public.
High season pricing at Bandon(345 USD),  Streamsong (285 USD) and Cabot (210 USD) is not out of kilter with a Kingsbarns/Dumbarnie/Castle Stuart.
 


Of course this is not surprising as they are targeting the same customers.


Ian

[Mark Pearce]

Are top-class Scottish courses really any more expensive than their (accessible) equivalents in the US ? Genuine question.


The likes of Sawgrass and Pebble are eye-wateringly expensive. Most of the top courses seem to be inaccessible to joe public.
High season pricing at Bandon(345 USD),  Streamsong (285 USD) and Cabot (210 USD) is not out of kilter with a Kingsbarns/Dumbarnie/Castle Stuart.
 


Of course this is not surprising as they are targeting the same customers.


Ian

This.  Complaints about getting scalped by UK courses when their US equivalents are either inaccessible or just as (or more) expensive always feel a bit uncomfortable to me. 

[Mark Pearce]

At the rate of £235 I doubt that I will be a customer. 

I thought you had joined Dornoch?  In which case, wouldn't you pay the SGU rate?

[Jeff Schley]

While we are talking expensive I doubt this type of trip to an Open Championship would not be quite so expensive:
https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1834874/masters-2020-7-person-package#latest

That is the same Aussie company I booked a group of 8 to Japan this past April that got delayed until 2021. Didn't have an easy time "negotiating" with the company, but eventually we got an agreement that was fair. 

This guy apparently is being strong armed.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben

Also, as far as I understand it, you can be a member of the SGU while not being a member of a club. Does that get you a reduced fee at Dumbarnie ?

As an aside, I understand that in New Zealand visitor fees at clubs are reduced if you are a member of another NZ club. I always thought that was a good idea and a good way of helping clubs.

Niall

I get reduced fees at other local clubs via the county card scheme