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Garland Bayley

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What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« on: June 06, 2020, 09:48:50 PM »
Tom Bascanyi used that phrase in the useless monuments thread. He asked who is building such courses.

What are examples of such courses? Why are they intelligently bunkered? Who's building them?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark_Fine

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2020, 10:52:06 PM »
I am not a big believer in what I call superfluous bunkers (ones that have little or no strategic value).  I also don’t care for purely penal bunkers (particularly ones that further penalize mostly the weaker golfer and an already poor shot).  I like fairway bunkers to be connected to the fairway and not left languishing in the rough.  But as with any kind of hazard, it is all about moderation and not overuse.  I just led a major renovation of Bethlehem GC.  We went from 39 bunkers down to 30.  Every bunker that is there now was rebuilt and/or reshaped and/or relocated in an “intelligent” manner  ;)  The green side bunkers are integrated with the greens (we modified the greens and surrounds/approaches to make sure this was the case). 


The course is not dumbed down in any way and I actually believe it plays easier for higher handicapppers but is also more challenging and thought provoking for better golfers.  We reduced bunker maintenance costs as well which was a key goal.  Call or name this what you want when it comes to the bunkering scheme. 

Sean_A

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2020, 03:29:51 AM »
Intelligent bunkering can mean different things for different people and different circumstances. For me intelligent bunkering is mostly about creating a balance of features which promotes variety. That said, there must be space for design flair or else courses, while individually would have tons of variety, as a group would be too similar. Bottom line, it is the fairly rare course I consider intelligently bunkered. When the bunkers are attractive to boot, it almost seems to good to be true.
Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2020, 04:10:32 AM »



“Intelligent” bunkering is about the golf hole but it is just as much about the site. On a really good site (sandy soil, natural undulations), I feel it is more important to use natural positions than it is to follow some cookie cutter idea of strategy based on distance off the tee. This - in turn - will end up with variety and will allow some hazards to consistently come in to play for all levels of golfer. The key on this type of good site is not to build too many of them. It’s very easy to keep building because there are “great” positions for bunkers everywhere. It might even improve individual holes by building more. But it will come at the detriment of operational costs and could end up looking overdone & contrived rather than understated and natural. I’ve just reduced Strandhill from 62 to 44, relocating every bunker. I could have built 80 and created wow moments for the magazines. But I would have failed on the above two counts.


On a less natural, flatter site (still with good soil), generally I think the number of bunkers needed is often slightly more to help create hole interest. Here more emphasis should be placed on strategy over natural positions (because there are few of the latter) but variety is still key to mix up all types of challenge. Include penal bunkers, include approach bunkers and strategic ones at 200 off the tee or 350 off the tee. Don’t do the same thing on any two holes.


On less good soil, try and reduce bunkers further to those that are really going to influence play. Style and size mean more also from a maintenance and drainage point of view. On sandy soil courses, style can be more focused on aesthetic once a bunker doesn’t need constant tending due to erosion.



Thomas Dai

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2020, 04:17:58 AM »
Play TOC in the now conventionally routed manner and there are loads of bunkers whose position don’t seem relevant or intelligently positioned. Play the course the other way around, ie the now reverse routing, and .......
Atb

Jeff Schley

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2020, 04:48:34 AM »
Perhaps it could be referring to the older designers who would build the course and see how it plays before adding in the bunkering in certain locations. You have data to make a decision in that case.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Randy Thompson

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2020, 11:50:54 AM »
Golf courses without sand bunkers!

Lou_Duran

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2020, 02:55:37 PM »
Golf courses without sand bunkers!


Nonsense.  My first exposure to golf were on mom-and-pops in rural Ohio, many who were much more productive for raising food.


My first exposure to a real golf course was at Ohio State, MacKenzie's on paper, but put on the ground years later with little artistry.  I've been a huge fan of bunkers since.


BTW, Possum Kingdom is back in the Texas Top 100, holding the last spot in the Dallas Morning News annual ranking.  Too bad it was never finished out completely nor has had the financial support to maintain it properly.  You guys weren't too shy with bunkering there, especially considering the abundance of natural features and difficult terrain.

Tom_Doak

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2020, 03:42:03 PM »
Design and bunkering are all a matter of opinion, so calling your bunkering intelligent is just kissing your own butt.


No bunkers could be great.  So could 100, or anything in between.  It would probably be better if most courses had 30-40 bunkers instead of the 70-80 many designers have been building, but an "extra" 30 bunkers is only a backbreaking cost if you insist on spending too much maintaining each one.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2020, 10:34:27 PM »
Design and bunkering are all a matter of opinion, so calling your bunkering intelligent is just kissing your own butt.


No bunkers could be great.  So could 100, or anything in between.  It would probably be better if most courses had 30-40 bunkers instead of the 70-80 many designers have been building, but an "extra" 30 bunkers is only a backbreaking cost if you insist on spending too much maintaining each one.

So there was no intelligence in John Low's suggestions for bunkering, and he was just kissing his own butt?

And a tour pro signature design i played that had 3 fairway bunkers left and right on most 2 or 3 shotters where my slicing to the rough outside the bunkers gave me easier approach than someone just missing the fairway is intelligent? For who?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2020, 05:38:56 AM »
Design and bunkering are all a matter of opinion, so calling your bunkering intelligent is just kissing your own butt.

No bunkers could be great.  So could 100, or anything in between.  It would probably be better if most courses had 30-40 bunkers instead of the 70-80 many designers have been building, but an "extra" 30 bunkers is only a backbreaking cost if you insist on spending too much maintaining each one.

So there was no intelligence in John Low's suggestions for bunkering, and he was just kissing his own butt?

I guess some butts are more pleasant to kiss than others?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2020, 09:29:40 AM »
“Intelligent bunkering” sounds more like the scientific methods proposed 100 years ago for design when “architecting” became a thing.  Also, in previewing this and its formatting, apparently intelligent posting is beyond me. :-[   So, why would anyone listen to these late night/early morning/insomnia fueled random thoughts?  I enjoy the mental gymnastics of following an idea to it's logical conclusion, at least, in MHO.
[size=0pt][/color]Einstein [/size][size=0pt][/color]once [/size][size=0pt][/color]said, [/size][size=0pt][/color]“We [/size][size=0pt][/color]should [/size][size=0pt][/color]make [/size][size=0pt][/color]things [/size][size=0pt][/color]as simple [/size]as they can be, but not simpler.” [size=0pt][/color]He also said, [/size][size=0pt][/color]“I [/size]never came upon my discoveries through the process of rational thinking.”  [size=0pt][/size]
[size=0pt][/color]If you follow those thoughts from one of the most intelligent men ever, which is it?  [/size]As said by others, no matter how [size=0pt][/color]strong [/size][size=0pt][/color]a philosophical, linear, and logical train of thought a bunkering scheme has, at some point, rational thinking cannot provide intelligent bunkering all in and of itself.  [/size]
[size=0pt][/color]But, to follow the idea through to conclusion, I suspect measuring the IQ of a bunker scheme would require a strict checklist of items to compare it against.[/size]
[size=0pt][/color]I think by the post WWII era, the ideas of how to bunker coalesced into a standard checklist, and perhaps too standard mode. It probably was most influenced by the depression era MacKenzie ANGC design with 34 bunkers, and Tillinghast’s program at removing “duffer’s headaches.  [/size]And, those two influences lasted until Pete Dye, and then other golf course architects in the big money eras. 
[size=0pt][/color]Einstein’s comments, “Making things as simple as can be, but no simpler” mimics the old design axiom of “less is more.”  [/size]30 bunkers beat 40, and 40 beats 50, etc. Obviously, this varies from course to course.  The concept of “benchmarking” is present, and if one of the most important tournaments in the world can host the best with 30 some bunkers, it becomes harder to argue more are needed, at least on design principle.  (Obviously a sand barren site like Pine Valley would have trouble achieving that low a number of bunkers.
[size=0pt][/color]Certainly, the cost of building and maintaining sand bunkers now argues for fewer sand bunkers, too. So did memories of the depression and WWII by the post WWII golf course architects, who probably figured that intelligent bunkers would be ones that survived periodic or persistent difficult financial times.  [/size]Maintenance doesn’t have to be expensive, true, but they [size=0pt]probably figured they shouldn’t rely on something they cannot control.[/size]
[size=0pt][/color]When I entered the biz in 1977, I think these ideas were pretty much engrained in mainstream golf course architectural thinking.  [/size]Every bunker should be located or used:
[size=0pt][/color]- First and foremost, as a strategic hazard, mostly for better players (i.e., why build duffer’s headaches?  [/size]They cost a lot, slow play, and duffers find the game hard enough on grass….)
[size=0pt][/color]- Near anticipated landing zones by better players (or with multiple tees, other classes of players).  [/size]
[size=0pt][/color]- Granted, some golf course architects became [/size][size=0pt]too focused on the assumed dogleg point of 250, 265, 285, and 300 yards, but no bunker is intelligently placed if it ignores the effects of elevation changes, wind direction and typical strength, altitude and even turf conditions.[/size]
[size=0pt]- With variations, sand bunkers were 1-1.5 stroke penalties, not 2+ stroke penalties of OB and water.[/size]
[size=0pt][/color] [/size]- Used only when a hole is devoid of natural hazards, or are complimentary to natural hazards.
[size=0pt][/color]Beyond that, bunkers can serve other purposes, like:[/size]
[size=0pt][/color] [/size]* Directional or deception
[size=0pt][/color] [/size]* Save bunkers
[size=0pt][/color] [/size]* Hole Dividers
[size=0pt][/color] [/size]* Aesthetics – in and of themselves
[size=0pt][/color] [/size]* Provide scale, depth, or framing as desired by golf course architect.
[size=0pt][/color] [/size]* Provide Variety, so every hole looks a bit different than the others.
[size=0pt][/color] [/size]* Drainage or detention areas, or in shady areas where turf cannot grow and you don’t accept dirt as the alternative. 
[size=0pt]Logically, if minimizing bunkering is an assumed truism, then every sand bunker should do something on that list, and do it well.  [/size]A bunker is more valuable if it performs 2 or more functions, and one that provides some element of 3 functions is most valuable of all. 
[size=0pt]What about Einstein’s exception of not coming up with great ideas with rational thinking?  [/size]I gather the golf course architect should be allowed to make a few exceptions to strongly held rules, when the mood strikes, or situation calls for it.  Even then, I suspect the followers of the logic would expect the architect to be able to succinctly state why the exception was a good idea, beyond, “Because I said so!”.
[size=0pt]If the old 80-20 rule holds, then they might expect and accept maybe 20% of 18 holes where the rules are broken, i.e., do something you wouldn’t normally do on about 3.6 of 18 holes.  [/size]Or be bold, and round it up to 4 holes!
[size=0pt]There is a counter trend for everything.  [/size]In golf, Pete Dye was probably the first to redefine the American bunker theory, and in many ways, it was just to be different and stand out.  Later, when money was flowing, other golf course architects played follow the leader, either in providing more bunkers for aesthetics only, “random bunkering” to challenge other players occasionally, etc.  Of course, back in the 50’s RTJ and Dick Wilson made no effort to minimize bunkers.  We can argue if that was intelligent or not, but they relied heavily on trees, water , and sand bunkers for challenge.  The trend to grass bunkers, chipping areas and other supplementary hazards came later, perhaps out of boredom.  Personally, I think the more hazard types the better the variety. 
[size=0pt]I have defended the 50’s golf course architects as having done what is right for their times, and much of that philosophy was sound, but its use was overly repetitive and then stale.  [/size]Design fields require change, and tastes change.  When it comes to bunkering, the underlying philosophy of those architects largely remains, but is being tweaked around the edges, keeping what works, and changing what is needed to make bunkering fresh for these times.  However, courses still have approximately the same number of bunkers, generally similar depths, and generally located mostly for good players, at least within the natural variations you would expect from any generation of golf course architects trying to stand out.
[size=0pt]That said, is standing out by building too many or impractical bunkers really good (and intelligent) design?[/size]
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2020, 10:22:18 AM »
Jeff's post without the formatting issues;

“Intelligent bunkering” sounds more like the scientific methods proposed 100 years ago for design when “architecting” became a thing.  Also, in previewing this and its formatting, apparently intelligent posting is beyond me. So, why would anyone listen to these late night/early morning/insomnia fueled random thoughts?  I enjoy the mental gymnastics of following an idea to it's logical conclusion, at least, in MHO.

Einstein once said, “We should make things as simple as they can be, but not simpler.” He also said, “I never came upon my discoveries through the process of rational thinking.”

If you follow those thoughts from one of the most intelligent men ever, which is it?  As said by others, no matter how strong a philosophical, linear, and logical train of thought a bunkering scheme has, at some point, rational thinking cannot provide intelligent bunkering all in and of itself.

But, to follow the idea through to conclusion, I suspect measuring the IQ of a bunker scheme would require a strict checklist of items to compare it against.

I think by the post WWII era, the ideas of how to bunker coalesced into a standard checklist, and perhaps too standard mode. It probably was most influenced by the depression era MacKenzie ANGC design with 34 bunkers, and Tillinghast’s program at removing “duffer’s headaches. And, those two influences lasted until Pete Dye, and then other golf course architects in the big money eras. 

Einstein’s comments, “Making things as simple as can be, but no simpler” mimics the old design axiom of “less is more.”  30 bunkers beat 40, and 40 beats 50, etc. Obviously, this varies from course to course.  The concept of “benchmarking” is present, and if one of the most important tournaments in the world can host the best with 30 some bunkers, it becomes harder to argue more are needed, at least on design principle. (Obviously a sand barren site like Pine Valley would have trouble achieving that low a number of bunkers.

Certainly, the cost of building and maintaining sand bunkers now argues for fewer sand bunkers, too. So did memories of the depression and WWII by the post WWII golf course architects, who probably figured that intelligent bunkers would be ones that survived periodic or persistent difficult financial times. Maintenance doesn’t have to be expensive, true, but they probably figured they shouldn’t rely on something they cannot control.

When I entered the biz in 1977, I think these ideas were pretty much engrained in mainstream golf course architectural thinking. Every bunker should be located or used:

- First and foremost, as a strategic hazard, mostly for better players (i.e., why build duffer’s headaches?  They cost a lot, slow play, and duffers find the game hard enough on grass….)
- Near anticipated landing zones by better players (or with multiple tees, other classes of players).
- Granted, some golf course architects became too focused on the assumed dogleg point of 250, 265, 285, and 300 yards, but no bunker is intelligently placed if it ignores the effects of elevation changes, wind direction and typical strength, altitude and even turf conditions.
- With variations, sand bunkers were 1-1.5 stroke penalties, not 2+ stroke penalties of OB and water.
- Used only when a hole is devoid of natural hazards, or are complimentary to natural hazards.

Beyond that, bunkers can serve other purposes, like:

•   Directional or deception
•   Save bunkers
•   Hole Dividers
•   Aesthetics – in and of themselves
•   Provide scale, depth, or framing as desired by golf course architect.
•   Provide Variety, so every hole looks a bit different than the others.
•   Drainage or detention areas, or in shady areas where turf cannot grow and you don’t accept dirt as the alternative. 

Logically, if minimizing bunkering is an assumed truism, then every sand bunker should do something on that list, and do it well. A bunker is more valuable if it performs 2 or more functions, and one that provides some element of 3 functions is most valuable of all. 

What about Einstein’s exception of not coming up with great ideas with rational thinking? I gather the golf course architect should be allowed to make a few exceptions to strongly held rules, when the mood strikes, or situation calls for it. Even then, I suspect the followers of the logic would expect the architect to be able to succinctly state why the exception was a good idea, beyond, “Because I said so!”.

If the old 80-20 rule holds, then they might expect and accept maybe 20% of 18 holes where the rules are broken, i.e., do something you wouldn’t normally do on about 3.6 of 18 holes. Or be bold, and round it up to 4 holes!

There is a counter trend for everything. In golf, Pete Dye was probably the first to redefine the American bunker theory, and in many ways, it was just to be different and stand out. Later, when money was flowing, other golf course architects played follow the leader, either in providing more bunkers for aesthetics only, “random bunkering” to challenge other players occasionally, etc. Of course, back in the 50’s RTJ and Dick Wilson made no effort to minimize bunkers. We can argue if that was intelligent or not, but they relied heavily on trees, water, and sand bunkers for challenge.  The trend to grass bunkers, chipping areas and other supplementary hazards came later, perhaps out of boredom. Personally, I think the more hazard types the better the variety. 

I have defended the 50’s golf course architects as having done what is right for their times, and much of that philosophy was sound, but its use was overly repetitive and then stale. Design fields require change, and tastes change.  When it comes to bunkering, the underlying philosophy of those architects largely remains, but is being tweaked around the edges, keeping what works, and changing what is needed to make bunkering fresh for these times.  However, courses still have approximately the same number of bunkers, generally similar depths, and generally located mostly for good players, at least within the natural variations you would expect from any generation of golf course architects trying to stand out.
That said, is standing out by building too many or impractical bunkers really good (and intelligent) design?

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2020, 10:40:50 AM »
Jeff

Many thanks for that. A much more informative and entertaining read than the article that originally spawned the other thread and subsequently this one. Indeed, worthy of being saved as an In my Opinion piece. IMHO of course. ;D

What I take out of your post, is whether it is fair to denigrate previous generations by judging them by todays standards that are based on different standards ? As I think you allude to previous generations worked with different criteria and had different choices. In the same way that the meaning of "scientific" bunkering morphed from rampart style bunkering at regular distances to bunkering based on strategic principles, you can say the same thing for intelligent bunkering.

Niall

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2020, 10:48:49 AM »
Jeff,

I'm pretty sure that the scientific design advocates weren't scientists.

My impression is that they were the better golfers trying to protect their rears. Much like the tour pro renowned for hitting fairways putting 3 bunkers on each side of the fairway in addition to greenside bunkers.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2020, 11:34:41 AM »
I was thinking of the same thing, having Jeff's piece as edited by Niall (reply 12) included in the "In My Opinion" section, with an invitation to the other resident architects (including Randy Thompson, especially since his conversion) to provide their summarized perspective on the subject.


Many years ago Jeff invited me and a then frequent poster on this site to play one of his best courses in the Dallas area.  The guy complained about a directional bunker (I think on the 12th, which seems to have been taken out), referring to it as "eye candy" and serving no useful purpose.  I disagreed with him on the basis that it always captured my attention when I stepped on the tee and was instrumental in quickly settling on the tactics for playing the hole.


As an aside, perhaps the writings of Einstein, Oakham, and numerous thinkers before and since can inform the good IT folks running this site on the beauty and wisdom of simplicity.  Is there not an easy way to turn off the auto-formatting?  It is such a hindrance.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2020, 11:47:43 AM »
Jeff,

Can you point me to where I can get more information on Einstein's rational thought quote?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2020, 12:26:34 PM »
Garland


You don't trust me? ;)


I have a few books of quotes on my shelf, but couldn't find them right off hand. I did a quick Google of Einstein quotes as well, but have to run (actually sit and attend) a zoom meeting in a few minutes, so I can't be of more help at the moment.


In that Google there was another one along the same lines - Logic gets you from A to B, Imagination takes you anywhere.  Seems apt as well.


Cheers.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2020, 01:35:30 PM »
As an aside, perhaps the writings of Einstein, Oakham, and numerous thinkers before and since can inform the good IT folks running this site on the beauty and wisdom of simplicity.  Is there not an easy way to turn off the auto-formatting?  It is such a hindrance.

In the second row of icons in the editor, at the far right, is an icon with an arrow enclosed in brackets.  As in [^].

You can use it to toggle between automated markup mode and manual markup mode.  If the icon is on, the default, you'll see it has a blue tinge.  This is the annoying automated markup mode.

Click that icon once and the editor will start pre-populating markup. (Markup is the text with the []'s).

Now, if the site had an easy way to paste pictures I would give you an illustration.....
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2020, 02:07:01 PM »
Garland


You don't trust me? ;)


I have a few books of quotes on my shelf, but couldn't find them right off hand. I did a quick Google of Einstein quotes as well, but have to run (actually sit and attend) a zoom meeting in a few minutes, so I can't be of more help at the moment.


In that Google there was another one along the same lines - Logic gets you from A to B, Imagination takes you anywhere.  Seems apt as well.


Cheers.
Before asking, I did a Google search and read 176 quotes. Nothing like what you quoted appeared. Having read his biography, my first take on you statement was you were taking something out of context.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2020, 05:26:40 PM »

Garland,

Here is the full story on the make it simpler quote.  Maybe someone paraphrased it, and of course, many attributions are in question, just like design attributions on golf club atlas.  It's interesting it was a music composer.  I recall the movie "Amadeus" when critics told him, "It's about your notes.  They are lovely, but there are too many of them." (me paraphrasing, not going to look it up, LOL) 

Either way, I do think the simplest answer, solution, etc., possible is most often the best one.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/05/13/einstein-simple/


And, Niall, thanks for the assist.  Not sure when I got the autoformat turned on, but for the last few months maybe since I switched to Windows 10 or something, formatting has been an issue on this site for me. 


And yes, I have postulated from time to time that current bunkering isn't really that much different than that of the 50's.  They have changed in style, moved further from the tee, etc. but is the philosophy really that much different?


One changes is that we seem to have re-introduced the angled carry bunker  which went out of use after WWII, perhaps a too strict implementation of the "no duffers headaches" rule, combined with equipment that made it easier to get the ball airborne.  That said, I put one in at Colbert Hills, and Jim Colbert (and other pros) thought it should have been angled out, not inward to create the carry (turns out, much ado about nothing, the college kids are carrying the direction bunker on the other side, LOL) 


It appears to me that a counter trend to harder bunkers is somewhat underway, but its hard to discern a trend in almost anything now.  Too many architects and (as discussed on the Brook Hollow thread) the top 1% of courses seemingly spend anything every few years, while all other courses are looking to reduce costs first and foremost.


Back in the Golden Age, someone (maybe CBM?) put cross hazards in front of greens as "top shot bunkers" to prevent a rolling shot from having a similar result as an aerial one.  Post WWII, those kinds of things went away as they were probably deemed to expensive to build and maintain just to punish the poor guy (gal) who is having trouble enough.


But, overall, once I leave golf club atlas I see few people who don't think the 50's style is the favorite bunkers. 


And, course managers really agree with the less is more attitude, again as the 99% are striving so hard to save money and survive. Not many hear want to talk about that, but that is the same reality as they faced in the 30's, recession of the 70's (when I started and you can tell it influenced me to this day.)  So, every 40 years, we seem to go through big bunker reduction programs. (presuming it started back up again in the 2010's.)


And for my favorite quotes: https://futureofworking.com/28-best-elmer-fudd-sayings/
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 05:51:39 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2020, 07:29:27 PM »
I had an interesting experience at our club.  We had a major storm 20 years ago which required some work as we lost several hundred trees and suffered other damage.  It gave us a chance to undo some ill conceived changes to our CH Alison course although lacking plans etc, we did not do a true restoration.  In any event, when the work was completed the course had to rated for handicap purposes.  The leader of the rating team who was very experienced and a good guy remarked that our architect really knew what he was doing because the fairway bunkers were at the appropriate distances to impact the ratings.  Of course, except forabout 2 holes which underwent significant makeovers due to the prior remodeling, none of the bunkers had been changed from the original Alison design. The course was built in 1921

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2020, 05:36:34 AM »
Jeff,

Can you point me to where I can get more information on Einstein's rational thought quote?


Jeff may have been thinking of these from Einstein:


“Invention is not the product of logical thought, even though the final product is tied to logical structure.”


Or


“The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery.”


Ira
« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 05:41:07 AM by Ira Fishman »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2020, 09:29:27 AM »
Woke up thinking about this one again.  Anyone else recall the 1965(?) HH Wind article in Golf Digest?  He wrote that it really only takes one bunker to set the strategy of a hole, illustrated with a graphic of a dogleg left with a greenside bunker front left.  He believed that one bunker set up the decision to play the short cut and come over the bunker or play wide and a longer, clearer approach shot from the right side of the fw.  So, maybe we forget Mac's 30 bunkers at ANGC, and set the low bar for them at 18?


In other sections, I think he also praised the Ross ideas (then not being used much by gca's) of small mounds and hollows to create interesting and difficult chip shots.  I suspect with normal grass heights in those days, those chips weren't as difficult as they might have been at Pinehurst and on any sandy hardpan with little grass.  Was that why they fell out of use?  As maintenance levels got higher, and fw HOC got lower, that may have restored the tight lie aspect of chipping areas (in conjunction with better bunker maintenance, it may have restored them to an equal if not greater hazard for better players maybe?)


I may be miscasting the old writing from memory, but IIRC the graphic on those hollows showed them most of the way around the green, i.e., he implied (not categorically stated) you should have some difficulty everywhere you miss the green.  I think. 


I also tend to think that a higher level hazard theory would have (usually):


- One master hazard, clearly more difficult than the others,
- Secondary hazards where coming from the "wrong" side of the fw provide some penalty (only enough to encourage playing to the right side). 
- From the preferred angle, you might have more green depth, upslope facing you to help hold shots, and an easier miss behind the green from that angle, because attacking a back pin and going over isn't really all that bad a shot, i.e., if you want to encourage the risky tee shot, make the aggressive miss a bit easier on the green. 
- And in most cases, provide a hazardless bail out area where it doesn't hurt you (average or just timid) players to purposely play away from the green.  In theory, that bail out area might be 180 degrees off the "Sunday Pin" position. (like front right for a tough back left pin)


Given the cost of sand bunkers these days, I suspect HH Wind theories might come more back in vogue.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2020, 09:31:26 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

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Re: What does intelligently bunkered courses mean
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2020, 09:37:29 AM »
Woke up thinking about this one again.  Anyone else recall the 1965(?) HH Wind article in Golf Digest?  He wrote that it really only takes one bunker to set the strategy of a hole, illustrated with a graphic of a dogleg left with a greenside bunker front left.  He believed that one bunker set up the decision to play the short cut and come over the bunker or play wide and a longer, clearer approach shot from the right side of the fw.  So, maybe we forget Mac's 30 bunkers at ANGC, and set the low bar for them at 18?
In other sections, I think he also praised the Ross ideas (then not being used much by gca's) of small mounds and hollows to create interesting and difficult chip shots.  I suspect with normal grass heights in those days, those chips weren't as difficult as they might have been at Pinehurst and on any sandy hardpan with little grass.  Was that why they fell out of use?  As maintenance levels got higher, and fw HOC got lower, that may have restored the tight lie aspect of chipping areas (in conjunction with better bunker maintenance, it may have restored them to an equal if not greater hazard for better players maybe?)
I may be miscasting the old writing from memory, but IIRC the graphic on those hollows showed them most of the way around the green, i.e., he implied (not categorically stated) you should have some difficulty everywhere you miss the green.  I think. 
I also tend to think that a higher level hazard theory would have (usually):
- One master hazard, clearly more difficult than the others,
- Secondary hazards where coming from the "wrong" side of the fw provide some penalty (only enough to encourage playing to the right side). 
- From the preferred angle, you might have more green depth, upslope facing you to help hold shots, and an easier miss behind the green from that angle, because attacking a back pin and going over isn't really all that bad a shot, i.e., if you want to encourage the risky tee shot, make the aggressive miss a bit easier on the green. 
- And in most cases, provide a hazardless bail out area where it doesn't hurt you (average or just timid) players to purposely play away from the green.  In theory, that bail out area might be 180 degrees off the "Sunday Pin" position. (like front right for a tough back left pin)
Given the cost of sand bunkers these days, I suspect HH Wind theories might come more back in vogue.
Ref humps and hollows, I was casually pondering the other day what some green complexes would be like if the bunkers were humps, not elephant like, but maybe as high as the bunker is deep. A different perspective on shot making requirements.
atb