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Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 0
Yes, there is a long tradition of diverting funds toward athletics in the US. I have never been a fan of the system at big time universities. In any case, it's hard to argue that golf (most sports for that matter) adds anything to campus life that it couldn't as a club sport. It seems especially harsh when a public university hands out athletic scholarships to foreigners when in state students could surely use the money. But, as I say, I am very much against the current college sports system.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Tim_Weiman

  • Total Karma: 0
Sean A:


I didn’t see anything wrong with sports during my years as a student at Princeton and did feel they added to campus life. Back then there actually was a kind of club football (called 150 lbs football), but the real thing was far more enjoyable to watch.


Overall, the Ivies do sports very well. Those who play are real “student athletes”, not the fake kind the NCAA talks about. Education comes first. Sports are for fun and don’t  interfere with the classroom. There is recruiting, but no athletic scholarships. Financial aid is need based only.


Leaving the Ivies aside, I am a passionate fan of USC football and have attended many games in the LA Coliseum - even one with Tommy Naccarato! The tradition and spirit does add to campus life, IMO.
Tim Weiman

Bernie Bell

  • Total Karma: 0
Don't know anything about youth golf, but my experience as father and uncle is that intercollegiate athletics have contributed greatly to the perversion of other youth sports in US.  Not just at D1 level but also at Ivies, Patriot and NESCAC schools in pursuit not of $$ but of status.  We have effectively created a system of professional athletics at obscenely young ages.

A.G._Crockett

  • Total Karma: -1
Yes, there is a long tradition of diverting funds toward athletics in the US. I have never been a fan of the system at big time universities. In any case, it's hard to argue that golf (most sports for that matter) adds anything to campus life that it couldn't as a club sport. It seems especially harsh when a public university hands out athletic scholarships to foreigners when in state students could surely use the money. But, as I say, I am very much against the current college sports system.

Ciao
Sean,
"Diverting funds toward athletics" is no different than diverting funds to music programs, or art, or drama, or student government, or the yearbook, or the newspaper, or any other part of university life outside the classroom.  In fact, the name "university" implies a larger commitment to student life beyond just books and professors.

The question of how much money should be "diverted" to ANY extracurricular activity in any school is a completely different question, and open to endless debate and revision.  But the idea that athletics, whether intramural, club, or intercollegiate is somehow a lesser endeavor than other forms of expression and the pursuit of excellence outside the classroom isn't supportable, at least in my view.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

A.G._Crockett

  • Total Karma: -1
Don't know anything about youth golf, but my experience as father and uncle is that intercollegiate athletics have contributed greatly to the perversion of other youth sports in US.  Not just at D1 level but also at Ivies, Patriot and NESCAC schools in pursuit not of $$ but of status.  We have effectively created a system of professional athletics at obscenely young ages.
Bernie,
I think it's safe to say that you and I share a distaste for what's happened to youth sports.  The "professionals" though, aren't the kids; it's the coaches that run year-round programs that are called things like travel, select, Olympic Development, and so on.  The kids and their families, as I'm sure you know, are shelling out BIG bucks for these programs.
The colleges are only to blame in the sense that the youth program coaches dangle scholarships in front of parents as an incentive to invest now for greater rewards later.  That it isn't really true is not the fault of the colleges.
I guarantee you if you interviewed 100 older HS basketball coaches who coached in the days before AAU became huge, like me and my contemporaries, they'd agree to a man that they wished they'd never heard those three letters.  Same with baseball coaches and travel baseball, and so on.  The big issue, I think, is that kids are forced into choosing a sport much, much to early, and usually for no purpose.  Ask college coaches and they'll tell you that they LOVE multi-sport athletes, whose numbers shrink every year. 

Big-time college athletics goes back long, long before any of this happened.  AAU basketball didn't become big until the mid-90's; same with travel ball and all the rest.  And it's a shame that it's come to this; I wish there was a way to put the genie back in the bottle, but I don't know what that would be.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -3
For an alternate data point...as a parent of a daughter who couldn't get enough Lacrosse, we found the opposite to be true.

Once she discovered it in the 7th grade, it was eat, sleep, and live Lacrosse.  She played 4 years of club lacrosse, (2 years on a traveling select team that played all over the Western US), 4 years of high school (3 year starter on Varsity), followed by 4 years in college, which also included tournaments in California, Idaho and Colorado.

She loved every minute of it and just couldn't get enough.  And we found the same enthusiasm among the other players on the travelling teams.  I even tried to get her to sample Basketball in High school, but she refused, even after trying to bribe her just to go to tryouts...

P.S.  She also excelled academically and was awarded partial academic scholarships for college.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 02:00:09 PM by Kalen Braley »

Bernie Bell

  • Total Karma: 0
Kalen -

Glad it worked out so well for her and for you.  What I've seen was more mixed.  I've seen elite level athletes (elite regional/national club teams in 2 sports) facing constant pressure -- from professional coaches and teammates and parents -- to commit to one or the other, and often in soccer to forego HS sports entirely . . . . from the sixth grade.  You know the drill -- we need to get into this league to get into that tournament so that next year we can get to that league and that tournament etc etc.  And I've seen elite kids who did fully commit to one sport with the intensity needed to "go D1," most often with regret.  I did the math at one point for the age group I knew the best in girls soccer, and even among those who achieved their (or their parents') HS desire to play D1 in college, the retention rate after 2 seasons was around 10-15%.  If they love it, great, but it's certainly not always that way.  [size=78%] [/size]
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 02:31:02 PM by Bernie Bell »

Bernie Bell

  • Total Karma: 0
Recent podcast with PGA tour player Denny McCarthy.  A lot of discussion about his youth and high school basketball career.  Good 5'9" player in a tough league. 


https://omny.fm/shows/kevin-sheehan-show/denny-mccarthy-with-kevin-sheehan

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Kalen -

Glad it worked out so well for her and for you.  What I've seen was more mixed.  I've seen elite level athletes (elite regional/national club teams in 2 sports) facing constant pressure -- from professional coaches and teammates and parents -- to commit to one or the other, and often in soccer to forego HS sports entirely . . . . from the sixth grade.  You know the drill -- we need to get into this league to get into that tournament so that next year we can get to that league and that tournament etc etc.  And I've seen elite kids who did fully commit to one sport with the intensity needed to "go D1," most often with regret.  I did the math at one point for the age group I knew the best in girls soccer, and even among those who achieved their (or their parents') HS desire to play D1 in college, the retention rate after 2 seasons was around 10-15%.  If they love it, great, but it's certainly not always that way. 


Soccer is definitely a closed shop for the most part in America, with the process you describe above being the norm.
So sad-
The "soccer" travel model ruined Little league as well with all the "elite" traveling and having little time for local town leagues.
never made sense to me for 11 year old mediocre kids to drive 6 hours, stay in a hotel and play against other well heeled over coached mediocre kids.
Spend that driving time practicing and doing something else....


Sadly College Coaches push for it because it's one stop shopping.


Golf has gotten just as silly which makes even less sense, given that you are only competing against the course.

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -3
It can be a mixed bag Bernie.  My daughter and I both knew by her junior year she wasn't D1 caliber, which may have helped in our situation.  She did receive several D2/D3 scholarship offers to play at small schools in various locations around the country.


In the end she wanted to stay local so she went to the University of Utah which has a top notch club team in the WCLA that is consistently in the top 10-15 nationally.

Bernie Bell

  • Total Karma: 0
Jeff, we have a deal at my club for strong youth golfers to join as solos.  It's a nice vibe.  Four of us old guys went out late afternoon for an emergency 9 recently, and two younger girls caught up to us.  We invited them through, but they waved us off.  Watching them I realized, they're in no hurry to finish, they're enjoying the golf and the chat with no adults coaching or following.  And if mom's kept waiting in the parking lot, they can blame it on the old men!

Tim Martin

  • Total Karma: 0
Kalen -

Glad it worked out so well for her and for you.  What I've seen was more mixed.  I've seen elite level athletes (elite regional/national club teams in 2 sports) facing constant pressure -- from professional coaches and teammates and parents -- to commit to one or the other, and often in soccer to forego HS sports entirely . . . . from the sixth grade.  You know the drill -- we need to get into this league to get into that tournament so that next year we can get to that league and that tournament etc etc.  And I've seen elite kids who did fully commit to one sport with the intensity needed to "go D1," most often with regret.  I did the math at one point for the age group I knew the best in girls soccer, and even among those who achieved their (or their parents') HS desire to play D1 in college, the retention rate after 2 seasons was around 10-15%.  If they love it, great, but it's certainly not always that way. 


Soccer is definitely a closed shop for the most part in America, with the process you describe above being the norm.
So sad-
The "soccer" travel model ruined Little league as well with all the "elite" traveling and having little time for local town leagues.
never made sense to me for 11 year old mediocre kids to drive 6 hours, stay in a hotel and play against other well heeled over coached mediocre kids.
Spend that driving time practicing and doing something else....


Sadly College Coaches push for it because it's one stop shopping.


Golf has gotten just as silly which makes even less sense, given that you are only competing against the course.






On the baseball front Little League, Babe Ruth, High School, and then American Legion seemed to be plenty back in the day. There were always independent Twilight leagues too if you hadn’t gotten your fill. The current travel team system and instructional costs are crazy.




Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -3

I played Little League for 6 years and youth soccer for 5 years back in the 70s and 80s.  The most travel we ever did was our side of the city, or theirs, for soccer games.  I always assumed those options still existed for the masses, and the year round travel teams as optional for the hardcore kids.  Are you saying kids today must decide to be all in on a travel team or nothing?

A.G._Crockett

  • Total Karma: -1

I played Little League for 6 years and youth soccer for 5 years back in the 70s and 80s.  The most travel we ever did was our side of the city, or theirs, for soccer games.  I always assumed those options still existed for the masses, and the year round travel teams as optional for the hardcore kids.  Are you saying kids today must decide to be all in on a travel team or nothing?
Complicated question.
If the goal is better competition (and I am NOT saying that it should be) then there is little alternative now but to play travel/select etc.  And many, if not most, of those programs become year round or close to it very early.  It is VERY difficult for parents to unilaterally say that they are going to not participate in all of that, especially if the kid wants to. 

It works for many kids, but there are lots of burnouts and lots of overuse injuries, too.  And it becomes quickly almost impossible to play multiple sports.  AAU basketball starts immediately after the HS state tournaments end, and travel baseball starts right after the high school season ends; both of those tend to run all summer and fall.  And soccer NEVER shuts down; there are national tournaments constantly. 

My son was a baseball player, but played football as well.  He gave up football before his junior year of HS because he was playing travel baseball almost every day during the summer; he decided that going thru the football workouts in the morning and then catching a baseball game that night was too much.  He projected as a backup DB and special teams guy in football, but a possible starter in baseball, so football ended.  You see a few kids now who play football and basketball, but almost nobody is able to play baseball and anything else because they play 50+ games in the summer.  It's very tough and very expensive; it's also very tough to be the one parent who says, "No mas!", even if you want to.  My son loved it, and so did I; I'd go back and do it all again in a heartbeat.  But I was sorry that he had to choose; that was something I never faced as a kid.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Michael Moore

  • Total Karma: 0
As mentioned above, men's track/indoor track/cross country has been re-varsityized after significant pushback.
 
But one thing that I missed from the earlier letters was that Brown settled a Title IX lawsuit in 1998, agreeing to tie the percentage of varsity opportunities for women to the percentage of undergraduates who are women (I thought this was baked into Title IX) and to restore funding to women’s gymnastics and volleyball and to elevate women’s lightweight crew, water polo and equestrian teams to varsity status.

Do you bring your own horse? If not I can see how that would strain an athletic budget.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -3
AG,

Very well put.  I can certainly understand the psychology of not wanting to admit as a 13 year old, or a parent, that they aren't up to snuff.

I guess in my time, there were some traveling teams...end of year all-star teams that played as long as they kept winning.  I had the disadvantage of being in a very competitive Little League that won district most years, and sometimes sectionals. (One year they even made it to the WS for Seniors, 14-15 yr olds).  And despite being a good pitcher, I was a lousy hitter and they always picked the all-around players.

I am aware of the burnout and injury stories, and my daughter had more than her fair share, but then again how many that don't do year round sports end up developing the skills or get considered to play big time NCAA ball?  Considering it is "just" sports and very much optional, its hard to see the unwilling victims in these things.  Demand is clearly there, and parents like you and I seem to be more than willing to pay for it. 

Besides, how can you crush your kids dreams like that and not do it? ;D ;D

Jeff Schley

  • Total Karma: -4
Growing up in the Midwest there were seasons. Baseball in the spring/summer, football in the fall, basketball in the winter. There wasn't even a way to play organized basketball in the summer or baseball in the fall etc. Every sport had it's season and it was a rotation. As mentioned you have this crazy fascination of year round club/travel marathons which is very expensive.
IMO the real loser in this game are the high school team sports. It was something to look forward to playing your rival school across town in any sport. Now some kids don't even play for the HS team, but club/travel team for "exposure". There is value playing on a team and supporting your teammates when maybe you aren't the star. Showing up and practicing while playing your role for the team, not for you.

In terms of concentrating on a certain sport from middle school onward it robs these kids of some memorable experiences. One of my coaching colleagues used to tell kids the following: "I never heard of a HS athlete regret playing too many sports, they only regret not playing more." I don't know where he got it, but I agree.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -3
Jeff,

My nephew is committed to Utah State's Basketball team and that's basically how it went for him.  In our chats over the years he did reveal a few perspectives...

1)  Why play in relatively meaningless high school games with no recruiters and risk injury.  He's from California, and his HS team wasn't even competitive in its league, much less beyond.  He did play for them team but sat a lot after asking the coach to let the other guys get playing time.
2)  Frustration with team mates who couldn't do simple things like pass effectively, rebound, run plays, etc.
3)  He had a lot more fun playing with and against competition at his level and really getting engaged in the games and practices.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 12:14:23 PM by Kalen Braley »

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Jeff,

My nephew is committed to Utah State's Basketball team and that's basically how it went for him.  In our chats over the years he did reveal a few perspectives...

1)  Why play in relatively meaningless high school games with no recruiters and risk injury.  He's from California, and his HS team wasn't even competitive in its league, much less beyond.  He did play for them team but sat a lot after asking the coach to let the other guys get playing time.
2)  Frustration with team mates who couldn't do simple things like pass effectively, rebound, run plays, etc.
3)  He had a lot more fun playing with and against competition at his level and really getting engaged in the games and practices.


Hope he makes the NBA because your nephew is gonna hate the workplace.

Kalen Braley

  • Total Karma: -3
Jeff,

My nephew is committed to Utah State's Basketball team and that's basically how it went for him.  In our chats over the years he did reveal a few perspectives...

1)  Why play in relatively meaningless high school games with no recruiters and risk injury.  He's from California, and his HS team wasn't even competitive in its league, much less beyond.  He did play for them team but sat a lot after asking the coach to let the other guys get playing time.
2)  Frustration with team mates who couldn't do simple things like pass effectively, rebound, run plays, etc.
3)  He had a lot more fun playing with and against competition at his level and really getting engaged in the games and practices.

Hope he makes the NBA because your nephew is gonna hate the workplace.


He seems pretty grounded on that one actually, at least from what he tells me.  He didn't get any offers from PAC 12 schools or Gonzaga, although he was invited to try out for a few of them.  I think he's just hoping to get plenty of playing time in college and enjoy the experience.

Cliff Hamm

  • Total Karma: 0

Tim Martin

  • Total Karma: 0
Is anyone shocked that Brown athletes are choosing to sue? Why didn’t Brown put a sunset provision in place for the affected sports? Even if you allow incoming freshman to finish out in their sport you are talking about four years.

V. Kmetz

  • Total Karma: 3
In neighboring, related news, UConn is proposing a 25% cut:


https://www.newstimes.com/uconn/article/UConn-proposes-cutting-men-s-tennis-swimming-15363008.php


This one highlight from the story itself... interesting facts and figures that put a real dollar amount on some of the revenue-loss sports:


According to the 2019 report, men’s tennis brought in $5,100 in revenues and $297,789 in expenses. Men’s swimming and diving accounted for $85,718 in revenues and $719,847 in expenses. Men’s track and cross country brought in $47,948 and cost $1,619,895 to run.
[/size]Women’s rowing brought in $264,210 in revenues and had $1,531,522 in expenses.
[/size]In 2019, there were 398 female athletes on women’s teams and 387 on men’s teams, which is about proportional to the school’s student body population and compliant with Title IX guidelines.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Grow up and choose between a STEM education or playing some half ass sport.

V. Kmetz

  • Total Karma: 3
Grow up and choose between a STEM education or playing some half ass sport.


Who is that response for?
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -