Secession, how much Devlin?

[Phil Lipper]

I know Pete Dye was the original designer for Secession and then replaced by Devlin, but when I play the course it feels almost entirely Dye with some non Pete Dye bunkering. Am I missing something or is the course basically the original Dye design?

[Lou_Duran]

From someone close to Bruce Devlin, Mr. Devlin went with the routing with some minor adjustments and created all the major design features.  He considered it to be a Bruce Devlin course, not a Dye/Devlin.


Having played numerous Dye and Devlin/von Hagge courses, I see more of a Dye than a von Hagge influence.  Both Dye and von Hagge seemed to have a mean streak- earth moved to create tight targets with great tragedy around them, von Hagge perhpas more abruptly- whereas Succession appears (from my single play) to rely mostly on natural site characteristics (wind, subtle low-country topography with holes built against marsh and wetlands) to defend par.  I have no idea how much dirt was moved, but I was left with a minimalist impression.


Michael Wharton Palmer is well-acquainted with the Devlins and the course.  Perhaps he can be enticed to pipe in.

[Tommy Williamsen]

As Lou indicated Devlin pretty much kept the Dye routing. He placed the bunkers and decided on the slope, undulations, and size of the greens.

[Tom_Doak]

They actually interviewed me for that job when they were looking to change designers.  Which was weird, because I had helped P.B. flag trees there for clearing back when I'd worked for the Dyes, so I did not try too hard to get the job. 

Pete had abandoned the job to P.B. when Landmark bought Kiawah and asked him to build The Ocean Course, and the client was none too happy with the trade.  [I'm surprised that Lou would bring up other rumors about P.B.'s exodus.]

I had no plans to change the routing and I can attest that Bruce Devlin did not change it significantly, either.  However, all the featuring is Devlin's -- none of it had been shaped prior to the falling out.

Is it similar to what Pete might have shaped?  I think yes, and I think my own design for it would have been, too -- because that's what the client wanted in the first place.  If anything, Devlin's design is more low-key than what Pete [or certainly P.B.] would have done.  He was not afraid to leave a flat site pretty flat, and let the marshes and the vegetation and his sharp bunkering set it apart.

[Lou_Duran]

Tom Doak,

I have edited my remarks per your suggestion. 


Thanks.

[Michael Whitaker]

Lou and Tom,
The powers that be at Secession were so upset that Pete turned their course over to P.B. that after they fired Pete they went onto their website and posted the entire story! They even bragged that they were the first of Pete Dye's clients to fire him... and, they wanted everyone to know it. That recap stayed on their website for a good number of years. It was explained to me that the firing was a result of the club feeling "abandoned" by Pete in favor of The Ocean Course. They felt they had hired Pete Dye, not his son, and they were not going to play second fiddle to Landmark. There were a lot of serious Super-A-Personality types involved in this imbroglio.

Most consider the course a Dye routing with Devlin's features. I think that sums it up fairly well.

[Anthony_Nysse]

They actually interviewed me for that job when they were looking to change designers.  Which was weird, because I had helped P.B. flag trees there for clearing back when I'd worked for the Dyes, so I did not try too hard to get the job. 

Pete had abandoned the job to P.B. when Landmark bought Kiawah and asked him to build The Ocean Course, and the client was none too happy with the trade.  [I'm surprised that Lou would bring up other rumors about P.B.'s exodus.]

I had no plans to change the routing and I can attest that Bruce Devlin did not change it significantly, either.  However, all the featuring is Devlin's -- none of it had been shaped prior to the falling out.

Is it similar to what Pete might have shaped?  I think yes, and I think my own design for it would have been, too -- because that's what the client wanted in the first place.  If anything, Devlin's design is more low-key than what Pete [or certainly P.B.] would have done.  He was not afraid to leave a flat site pretty flat, and let the marshes and the vegetation and his sharp bunkering set it apart.

If Pete would have finished Secession, do you think that it would have had some similarities to Old Marsh?

[Lou_Duran]

Lou and Tom,
The powers that be at Secession were so upset that Pete turned their course over to P.B. that after they fired Pete they went onto their website and posted the entire story! They even bragged that they were the first of Pete Dye's clients to fire him... and, they wanted everyone to know it. That recap stayed on their website for a good number of years. It was explained to me that the firing was a result of the club feeling "abandoned" by Pete in favor of The Ocean Course. They felt they had hired Pete Dye, not his son, and they were not going to play second fiddle to Landmark. There were a lot of serious Super-A-Personality types involved in this imbroglio.

Most consider the course a Dye routing with Devlin's features. I think that sums it up fairly well.

Thanks for the information Mike.  I stand corrected.


I wonder how the course would have ended up if the Dyes had finished it.  More like the Dye Course at Colleton with a lot of mounding and bunkering?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

I suspect that you know the situation in far greater detail than I do as I was a stranger and didn't fish for it. 

Lou:


I don't know any details other than what I shared.  I went down to interview; no one explained anything about the situation to me, and certainly not the sort of rumors you posted above.


The thing is, you don't know anything about it, either - it's All secondhand or third-hand gossip from 20+ years ago.  That's the sort of thing Ran could get sued for, so it would probably be best if you edited your post with that in mind.  It certainly has nothing to do with golf architecture.