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BCrosby

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Harry Colt
« on: November 03, 2003, 11:40:35 AM »
Harry Colt was named In some recent threads as the most important/influencial architect of the 20th century. Indeed, Paul Turner thought it was by a wide margin.

Those responses surprised me. I know Colt helped kick-start MacK's career, assisted with some famous courses in the US and did several good courses in GB and Scotland.

But how do you get from there to Colt's being the most important architect of the 20th century? What am I missing?

Bob
« Last Edit: December 10, 2004, 04:11:17 PM by BCrosby »

Paul_Turner

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Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2003, 11:54:36 AM »
"In some recent threads, several people named Colt as the most important/influencial architect of the 20th century. Indeed, Paul Turner thought it was by a wide margin."

Ahem!  I wrote nothing of the sort!  :o That was someone else.

"Did several good courses in GB and Scotland"

That's a bit of an understatement.



« Last Edit: November 03, 2003, 11:56:00 AM by P_Turner »
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BCrosby

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Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2003, 12:02:56 PM »
Paul -

My apologies. It was Brian Phillips who posted the referenced comment.

I'm not looking to spar with anyone. I don't know much about Colt and would like to know more. I'm trying to understand why people feel that Colt deserves to go the head of the class.  

Bob    
 
« Last Edit: November 03, 2003, 12:26:35 PM by BCrosby »

Chris_Clouser

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2003, 12:10:26 PM »
From doing some recent research on Colt, I would say some of these may be key points to that feeling.

First to develop detailed drawings and plans
First to "organize" a professional practice
First to really incoporate housing and trees into the design
Great designs and redesigns on multiple types of terrain
First to spread the game to multiple parts of the world (US and Europe)
Trained some of the best architects in history (Mac and Alison)


Was he the greatest?  That can be argued.

Was he the most influential?  Probably.

Paul_Turner

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Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2003, 12:20:21 PM »
Bob

No problem  ;)

As Chris writes, Colt was one of the true pioneers.

The courses in his resume are extremely strong:  

Muirfield, Portrush (2), Pine Valley(part) Sunningdale New (Old part), St George's Hill, Hamilton, Royal Zoute, Swinley Forest, De Pan, Lytham St Annes (part), County Sligo, Belvoir Park, Hoylake (part), Eindhoven, Toronto, Wentworth(2), Eden, Kennemer, Falkenstein, Puerto de Hierro, St Germaine, Alwoodley(part), Royal County Down (part), Le Touquet

Got to go, I'll add more.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2003, 06:44:25 PM by P_Turner »
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2003, 12:29:19 PM »
To add to Chris' post above, Colt was one of the first men (along with Park, Fowler and Abercromby) to sincerely attempt to adapt links principles and characteristics to inland sites, and to utilize the inherent terrain in his golf course designs.

More to point, he was perhaps the first to have success in that regard, very early in the 20th century, at Alwoodley and Swinley Forest, for example.

Isn't this the method almost every practicing golf architect since has professed to employ as well? Based on Colt's successes, to some degree. In turn, I would label Colt very influential; perhaps the most influential golf architect in history.

He was one of the first to prove a golf course with links-type strategy and character could be built on hinterland, and his work in that regard set an example for many, including Mackenzie and Alison, who exported Colt's style and principles to many countries throughout the world.

Colt's early works at Toronto and Hamilton had a significant influence on a young Stanley Thompson in Canada as well.

Directly or indirectly, Colt had an early impact on how the game is understood and played in many countries, including the UK, Canada, the USA, Australia, Argentina, Australia, and Japan.
jeffmingay.com

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2003, 01:14:58 PM »
Bob:

Paul Turner should certainly be considered Golfclubatlas's expert of Harry Colt (and the rest of the English so-called Heathland architects).

Right off the bat, it's probably a little difficult for Americans who don't have a real interest and knowledge in European architecture and it's architectural beginnings, in the sense that we think of golf course architecture, to fully understand an architect such as Colt and all that he may have meant to the world of golf architecture, its earlier years and most definitely its evolution.

All this is made even more difficult, in my opinion, by the nature of Colt's company and how exactly he worked with (or didn't work with) his partners--notably Alison, Mackenzie, Morrison and Harris.

If one looks at Colt's career inventory in something like Cornish & Whitten one sees and awful lot of golf courses under Colt's name--a dozen or more quite well known in the world of golf and many more in Europe and the United States that are well known and respected by some but not that well known generally.

But the thing that makes evaluating Colt specifically a difficult thing to do, at least in Cornish and Whitten, is how intertwined in attribution many courses are with Alison, for instance, partiuclarly in the US.

Because of that it seems almost impossible to ever determine exactly what Colt did and what Alison did. Many courses in the US, for instance, are attributed well into the 1920s and 1930s to both of them together but it appears, to me anyway, that Colt may never have returned again to the US following his well-known visit to PVGC and Canada in 1913.

I've asked and asked anyone, including Paul Turner, to come up with some evidence that Colt did return to the US after 1913 but so far no one seems to have been able to find any evidence of that. It's fairly well known, I guess, that Colt was not that fond of traveling.

But if Colt never did return to the US, for instance, that sort of puts a whole different perspective on the career inventory that's attributable to him, certainly in conjunction with Hugh Alison. Cornish and Whitten even mentioned in his bio in their book that Colt was opposed to mail-in designs so if that was true and he never returned to the US one should certainly draw some interesting conclusion from that about much of what Colt actually did do.

Nevertheless, and, certainly in my opinion, the work that is definitely known to be Colt exclusively does show an absolutely amazing degree of sophistication in design and at a very early time. That, to me, puts Colt but perhaps also those other architects known as the "Heathland architects" very high on the list of overall importance in the history of golf architecture.

But frankly, from everything I've seen from him I'm inclined to put Hugh Alison at probably the same level or perhaps even higher than Colt himself.  It just so happens that Colt was Alison's senior in architecture and Colt was the one who brought Alison along in the company. But Alison did some amazing work in the Far East, perhaps elsewhere, and certainly in the US. It's no secret at all that Alison spent a great deal of time in America--his name pops up all over the place in some of the research Wayne Morrison and I are doing on Flynn et al, for instance!

But again, if Colt never returned to America after 1913 how can anyone seriously give him the credit that his career inventory seems to suggest? To me most if not all of the work in the US must go to Alison almost exclusively if Colt was not here when all that attributed "Colt/Alison" work was done over here.

The so-called "Heathland architects", again, should not be overlooked or underestimated as to their importance in the way of various "influences" on architect and certainly in America in some areas. It seems like the "Heathland architects", certainly Colt and Alison were sort of the "go to guys" for some significant American creations and those that did them such as Crump, Wilson, Fownes, and perhaps even some like Perry Maxwell or Robert Hunter or Max Behr.

The work of Colt and that of Mackenzie, who nominally were partners should never be remotely intermingled, in my opinion, with the notable exception of perhaps Alwoodley, an early and really significant course in the evolution of architecture, in my book. They apparently didn't get along very well later and there is good evidence that they created a partnerhip as much for "defensive reasons" as anything else (so they wouldn't have to compete against each other business-wise!)

Colt was significant, in my opinion, in the history of architecture but exactly how significant seems to remain pretty elusive. I personally wouldn't call him the greatest of all time, not yet anyway, but from what I do know of him certainly in that top handful. Perhaps when more becomes known about him that will go up but it could also go down.

And in that vein, I'll ask anyone who might know, including Paul Turner, did Colt return to the US following 1913 or didn't he? I'm looking of course for real evidence of that in a working architectural sense and not speculation. Because if he never did return that certainly is important to know.

(Wayne and I do have a letter from Hugh Wilson were he quotes a letter from Colt to him in the early 1920s asking for agronomic advice and resource where Colt mentions that he has not seen Wilson in well over ten years and does he remember him? With all that was going on around Philadelphia and the East coast architecturally at that time that sure seems to imply that Colt probably never did return to the US following 1913. All those architects were a relatively tight fraternity at that time and it sure is obvious (and documented) that throughout that entire time (teens into the 1930s) Alison was all over the place over here and very visible too).

I know a little more about Alison (more than Colt) and his work, his philosophy, his writing, drawing, recommendations and architectural analyses by him and to me he is one of the most significant architects I know of in the history of golf architecture. His work at a quite early time showed amazing sophistication in every way!

But I think the thing to focus on most is not just Colt alone but on the entire group that was known as the early "Heathland architects". In a sense they are the ones that first brought golf architecture out of the linksland, and out of a period of real "dark ages" outside the linksland to what became some amazing sophistication in early golf architecture!

« Last Edit: November 03, 2003, 01:18:22 PM by TEPaul »

Gary_Smith

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2003, 01:59:17 PM »
I thought I read somewhere that before Flynn did the overhaul at Shinnecock in the early '30s, that the club brought in Colt to review Flynn's plans and render a second opinion. Colt confirmed Flynn's plans as first rate and the work was done.

Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2003, 02:27:21 PM »
Gary:

You are thinking of someone other than Colt. It was Hugh Alison who was hired by Shinnecock to analyze Flynn's design plan prior to Flynn and the club going ahead with the construction. And it was a masterful analysis on the part of Hugh Alison--a virtual primer on the land, Flynn's design, even the basic strategy of it and also a first rate analysis and recommendation of how to best follow a truly remarkable tree plan the club and Flynn developed!

BCrosby

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Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2003, 04:42:02 PM »
Interesting.

Sounds like the case for Colt is:

- he professionalized the practice of gca;
- he was the first to successfully translate links design features to inland courses;
- he was a doyen to Alison, MacK, Thompson and others;
- he helped internationalized the game, including the design of courses in Canada, Japan, France, etc.

All substantial, important achievements.

And yet...

I don't hear or read many accounts of Colt's most successful holes. On the other hand, I DO read accounts of holes by MacK, MacD, even by Braid or Old Tom. We argue about them on this site frequently.

Maybe it's that I don't get out enough. (I've played none of Colt's English courses.) Maybe I'm not reading the right stuff. (I stand ready to be educated.) But other than Muirfield, I don't have a feel for Colt's work. And even at Muirfield, as TEP pointed out, Colt's contributions are hard to separate from those of several other designers. Ditto for PV.

My sense is that Colt is a pivotal figure who is overdue for a good biography. My hope is that the book would lay out his best work and show how it fits into the evolution of the art.

I hope somebody will put on the yoke.

Bob

 


T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2003, 04:45:02 PM »
Bob
If you prescribe to the idea that ‘modern’ golf architecture began in the healthlands, (‘modern’ as opposed to the Victorian designs of the 1890’s) then Colt has to be near the top of those most responsible and those most influencial—along with Willie Park-Jr. and Herbert Fowler. Perhaps at the very top if you consider his portfolio of designs and the influence he had on so many on both sides of the Atlantic. Not only guys  like Low, Abercromby, Alison, MacKenzie, Morrison, Darwin were influenced by Colt, but also many in the US that TE listed and I would include Ross and Travis on that list.

From a world perspective, he was considered the premier architect of that era--and it was pretty long era. When the premier clubs of Canada sought architectural expertise, they were led to Colt. When the premier clubs of Japan were looking for an architect, they looked to Colt. When the premier clubs on the Continent needed an architect they turned to Colt. When they R&A needed advise on the Old course, a redesign of the New course and the design of a new course (Eden) they turned to Colt. When Crump needed an architect at PV he turned to Colt. I think there is evidence that whenMorse was originally looking for an architect to design Pebble Beach that he had secured the top architect from overseas, unfortunately the War prevented this fellow from traveling over (he then turned to two amateurs)--I suspect it was Colt.

It is common knowledge that Colt did not travel to the US after 1913, but I don’t think this has any effect on his accomplishments or his impact. Its not difficult to separate his most prominent designs from those of Alison, and I don’t think there is any question, Colt was the more accomplished man of the two (with all due respect to Alison’s genius).

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2003, 05:19:13 PM »
The first thing that has to happen with Harry Colt is for someone to finally separate what he actually did and what Alison and his other partners actually did. If one looks carefully at Cornish and Whitten that isn't even remotely done--almost all the work of both Colt and Alison is jumbled together (there aren't many "solo" attributions in there either way) and it seems pretty clear to me for a variety of reasons--the best being the fact that Colt did not return to the US after 1913 that a separation does need to occur in the record soon as to who did exactly what. Somebody may try to give Colt a ton of attribution for some of the course the company did in the US after 1913 but for obvious reasons I'll tell you I'm not going to buy that Colt had much or anything to do with them.

But again, you can't underestimate that "Heathland architect" influence as to importance and to the interesting evolution of architecture at that time preceding and going to the end of the "Golden Age" for a variety of reasons. And there's no doubt Colt's place in the "Heathland" style and era is clear.

But what I've seen of Alison and what I've seen of Colt I'd put Alison every bit in the same class as Colt for quality of architecture. Colt sure did something at PVGC but what all is just not really known with assurance. But what Alison did there I know in absolute detail!

Even Muirfield appears to be a combined attribution in C&W. I'd sort of have to believe that was Colt though. The club is pretty good with their history and evolution and it appears they think it was Colt.

But again when someone says something like this about PVGC and Colt;

"When Crump needed an architect at PV he turned to Colt."

that does need clarification as Paul Turner knows. Crump may have turned to Colt as an architect but he also turned to or entertained the opinions of about every other architect of note of that era too. PVGC appears to have been the most extensive collaborative effort in the history of architecture by a mile. But was it really in the end? The trick of it all is not JUST to determine what any of those architects, including Colt, said to Crump or left with Crump, as many have done, but to understand what Crump did about any of it when he took those five years to build his course. That is without question the key to understanding the creation of PVGC much of which just has to do with analyzing what happened and when throughout those five years before he died.

BCrosby

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Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2003, 05:40:40 PM »
Tom Mac -

Great post.

I agree, the dearth of US courses by Colt should be irrelevant in any assessment of how good he was. But it is also the reason why Americans don't have a very good handle on him. Personally, I have no pre-conceived notions about his work.

The fact that he was the first to use links design features on inland courses is reason enough to give Colt a special place. Afterall, 98% of courses today are inland.

But knowing that Colt played a pivotal role in cga doesn't tell me much about his designs. (Is this how people in the UK and Australia feel when we talk here about Donald Ross or W.A. Tillinghast?)

Just because I'd like to know more about Colt, I hope someone does a full length treatment of him. I hope they will answer questions like -

What were the design features typically used by Colt in these links/inland "translations"?
Through the filter of history, are they still successful designs?  
What do we find in the work of MacK, Thompson, Ross etc. that cames from Colt?

Colt sounds like the stem cell of gca.

Bob

« Last Edit: November 04, 2003, 08:12:56 AM by BCrosby »

T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2003, 06:20:11 PM »
Bob
I think Ross's visit to the UK in 1910 to study the modern state of golf design had a major impact on his work. Before 1910, the little work he did was pretty crude and not very natural. Colt's greatest strength, turns out to be Ross's greatest strength--the ability to create golf courses that fit naturally with the terrain.

Travis as editor of The American Golfer was known to quote Colt to make a point about architecture. For example regarding the futility of copying famous holes or negative impact of blind shots. He invited Colt to advise at GCGC--which he did.

With MacKenzie I get the impression that they influenced one another--in particular the haphazard naturalistic bunkers that both men produced very early on. I'm not certain one created the idea before the other or if they developed it seperately, but however it happened they both certainly advocated those irregular bold bunkers, while working together starting Alwoodley, as partners and after they split. (By the way I have not found any evidence there was bad blood between the men)

Colt does deserve a book -- Paul's been working on it (and I'm helping him.) A long and complicated career makes for difficult research, but should also produce an interesting story.

TE
I know Paul has very good handle on who did what, and I have a decent idea. The fact that Alison designed the American courses in the 20's and the Japanese courses (and some Euro courses), doesn't take away from Colt's impressive resume IMO.

You are right about Crump getting advice from many, but Colt was the only one he paid.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2003, 06:26:16 PM by Tom MacWood »

Paul_Turner

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Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2003, 06:29:39 PM »

From a world perspective, he was considered the premier architect of that era--and it was pretty long era. When the premier clubs of Canada sought architectural expertise, they were led to Colt. When the premier clubs of Japan were looking for an architect, they looked to Colt. When the premier clubs on the Continent needed an architect they turned to Colt. When they R&A needed advise on the Old course, a redesign of the New course and the design of a new course (Eden) they turned to Colt. When Crump needed an architect at PV he turned to Colt. I think there is evidence that whenMorse was originally looking for an architect to design Pebble Beach that he had secured the top architect from overseas, unfortunately the War prevented this fellow from traveling over (he then turned to two amateurs)--I suspect it was Colt.

It is common knowledge that Colt did not travel to the US after 1913, but I don’t think this has any effect on his accomplishments or his impact. Its not difficult to separate his most prominent designs from those of Alison, and I don’t think there is any question, Colt was the more accomplished man of the two (with all due respect to Alison’s genius).


Interesting post Tom, I agree Colt was seen as the premier architect of the time, you can read this in the contemporary magazines all the time.  And I also agree that Alison would never have put himself at the same level as Colt.  You can tell that from the letters.  And you can also tell from the work, Colt's courses are better.  Colt's resume isn't impacted significantly because the bulk of the US work is Alison's (Milwaukee, Kirtland, Timber Point(NLE), Sea Island, Plum Hollow, Century are apparently the best)  

Colt visits America twice... and we have two of the best courses in Canada (Toronto and Hamilton) his work at Pine Valley, the original Detroit course and Old Elm.  

Also interestingly, many of the most sophisticated design ideas seem to be have been written down by Colt before anyone else (as far as I can tell).  Subjects like hole elasticity... which were NOT obvious in those days.

Muirfield is definitely Colt's.  Apart from the great 13th-that's Tom Simpson's.  Colt's original 13th wasn't much different, but it found to be too severe.



Tom Paul

Have you still got it in for old Harry?!

Bob

There are tons of famous/great holes by Colt, that just don't get the acclaim because they aren't in the US.  Architects are more glorified over here.

I'd be surprised if any architect could match Colt's top 20-50 courses.  One of main reasons being, that his courses are over such a diverse spread of terrain.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2003, 06:38:53 PM by P_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

JNC Lyon

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Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2003, 06:46:27 PM »
Not only was Colt 's architecture influential, but his book, Some Essays on Golf Architecture was one of the first of its kind. His list of courses may not be as long as some, but many were revolutionary. Pine Valley: Enough said. St. George's Hill: First golf real estate development. He built in many different nations (though he was not as traveled as Alison) and built with many different styles.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jay Carstens

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Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2003, 07:08:10 PM »
BCrosby
It sounds like you may be getting your wish.
www.coltassociation.com/legacy.php
Jay
Play the course as you find it

T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2003, 08:10:40 PM »
That book has been in the works for some time--that will be the second book on Colt, the first one was 'Colt & Co.' written by the late Fred Hawtree.

ian

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2003, 09:05:58 PM »
The old York Downs (NLE Toronto) and Park CC (Buffalo) by Alison do not compare to Toronto and Hamilton. As Jeff Mingay had mentioned, Toronto is our NLGA. All great golf followed Toronto Golf, all clubs were inspired to be better through the new high standard of Toronto. All great future architects (The two Thompsons and George Cumming included) all went out to see Toronto built.

If your not convinced of Colt's skill. Go see Portrush, if that doesn't convince you than I'm out of ideas. I think Colts place is deservedly with the top group. I think his lack of American work hinders his appreciation. Have a look at Paul's list, there is a lot of great golf that still holds up extremely well.


TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2003, 10:28:03 PM »
"Tom Paul
Have you still got it in for old Harry?!"

Paul:

I'm very surprised that you'd ask a question like that of me on here without including a smiley face!  ;)

I think you know I don't have anything in for Harry Colt on the subject of PVGC. Colt certainly did something there and probably something quite significant but the key henceforth is to find out with assurance exactly what that is first before credit is given in specific ways for PVGC.

However, commonsense will tell you or anyone that Crump's contribution and significance as to what turned out to be PVGC is immense--just immense and for anyone to say otherwise just isn't looking correctly at all that went on there during Crump's five year life there of daily overseeing and designing. No one can spend that amount of time and his own money on a golf course and not be given the kind of due that's clearly deserved. That to me and really good researchers such as Shackelford is just undeniable no matter how you slice it.

The key to figuring out Colt's real contribution to PVGC is to not just understand his input (that which some of us have seen) which frankly is pretty clear now but to find out what passed muster in the end with the creation after he left and that brief time he was there and how and why the course turned out as it did. Unfortunately the thing no one may ever know is when they (Crump and Colt) spent that week out there in 1913 who was responisible for coming up with what. I'm not willing to make assumptions much less conclusions about that yet and neither should you or anyone else--either way. There're doubtless additional timelines and additional information there that really are important in the unique creation of PVGC and I think analyzing it all correctly will tell the final story in detail. I don't think that has been done yet or completely.

But this much I do know now with complete assurance--if anyone tries to say that Harry Colt was THE architect of PVGC they'd be very very wrong!


Chris_Clouser

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2003, 07:28:16 AM »
Does anyone know when that Colt Legacy book is due to be released?

BCrosby

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Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2003, 08:36:12 AM »
All this make me want to find Hawtree's book on Colt. Has anyone read it?

While a new bio of Colt would be worth having, I also think a book on the first translations (or reinterpretations?) of links design features to inland courses would be even more valuable. The book would focus on all three of Colt, Willie Park, Jr. and Herbert Fowler.

If well done, a book along those lines would be fascinating. It would have as its subject matter not an individual architect but the major turning point in the history of gca.

Question:

Did Colt, Park and Fowler believe they were part of a movement? Did the three of them talk, share ideas? A la the loosely organized Philadelphia School?

Bob
« Last Edit: November 04, 2003, 08:46:39 AM by BCrosby »

Chris_Clouser

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2003, 08:46:16 AM »
I read the bio a few years ago, but it was a library copy.  I would like to find a copy to call my own.  

Nice idea for a book there Bob.


BCrosby

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Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2003, 08:58:09 AM »
Chris -

Ah, but there were life and time enough....

Bob

Andy Levett

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Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2003, 09:14:36 AM »

While a new bio of Colt would be worth having, I also think a book on the first translations (or reinterpretations?) of links design features to inland courses would be even more valuable. The book would focus on all three of Colt, Willie Park, Jr. and Herbert Fowler.


Perhaps Hawtree did that one as well. This is from Grant Books' website:
"Aspects of golf Course Architecture 1889 - 1924
Author: Hawtree Fred( Ed)
Description:
 The book traces the beginning of formal golf course architecture from 1889 when Horace Hutchinson wrote of it in the Golfing Annual, up to Reginald Beale writing in 1924. The editor sets the scene in the first chapter where he writes on the evolution of laying out golf courses before 1889. Each subsequent chapter, introduced by the editor with a critique and commentary,is taken from the writings of early golf course designers. "

I'd like to read both this and the Colt bio but am having no luck with library requests. Both are listed as available at www.grantbooks.co.uk but are not cheap. I would be first in line for sensibly-priced reprints.