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wsmorrison

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #75 on: November 09, 2003, 05:32:18 PM »
Thanks for the Finegan citation of the opening date, I'll reread that later this evening.  Let's get together this week when you've got some time--we've got work to do.
Regards,
Wayne

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2003, 06:07:56 PM »
Wayne:

I know we have work to do but do you know how hard it is explaining the evolution of the construction of PVGC to Tom MacW? That's hard work. Could you please convince him to get Finegan's book and read it before firing all these questions at me? And while you're at it convince Paul Turner to stop taking bathes and stewing in his own muck while reading Colt books and dropping them in the tub. Tell him to just take showers and read Colt afterwards, like the rest of us colonists!  :)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2003, 06:13:39 PM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2003, 06:33:49 PM »
Nobody said it would be easy being Tom Paul!  

None (especially Tom MacWood and Paul Turner) shall bother Tommy without consulting their Jim Finegan history books first!  So it is written, so shall it be done.  There Tom, that ought to do it  ;)

T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2003, 06:41:03 PM »
TE
What I find interesting about the PV story is trying to seperate fact from fiction, legend from reality. It sometimes difficult to know what is what.

1. America's involvement in WW1 (19 months). PVGC had a hard time getting manpower and materiel in the war and it was considered unpatriotic to continue anyway! (what was hole #12 had a victory garden on it!).
The US declared war on Germany April 1917, the first troops arived in France July 1917. Crump died Janaury 1918.

2. Crump had basically built himself into a box and couldn't decide how exactly to complete a few of those last holes, particularly #12, #14 and #15. There were a number of iterations of #14 including a smashing looking downhill NGLA style "Cape" hole very long par 3 (or short par 4 option!?)!
I have read the conjecture Crump built himself into box, I have not seen any evidence to support this theory. The 13th was altered in late 1914 or early 1915. In 1915 there was a plan for 18 holes (Travis reversable) which showed the new 13th and the cape 14th. Interestingly Finegan said Colt originally planned the 14th to be a par-3. I have not read any accounts from that time that stated Crump was having difficulty with the design of 12 thru 15.

3. Crump died in January 1918--the club and much of the golfing world was stunned--the money source (him) dried up and the club and others felt lost without his direction. It took the club a couple of years to figure out how to proceed and complete and that's when the so-called 1921 Advisory Committee entered the picture and sorted things out including with Merion/Wilsons/Flynn and Hugh Alison. Agronomy (course conditions) was just one of many things concerning them and which the 1921 Advisory Committee had to deal with.
According to Tillinghast, Crump was setting out to complete the final six holes in mid 1914. Again in early 1915 Tillignhast says the new holes will be contructed  as rapidly as possible. No mention of any design difficulties. There is mention of agronomic difficulties and the need to go back and fix the holes already completed.

Regarding the experimental clearing (for potential holes and routings) is this conjecture or a fact?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2003, 06:46:17 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2003, 06:52:11 PM »
Tom MacWood;

For Christ sakes will you get Finegan's book and read it, stop relying on what Tillinghast wrote in 1914 or 1915. There was a lot left to do that did not end until the early 1920s as Finegan outlines in detail in his book all from the DOCUMENTS from the club left within the archives. If you want to continue to think that what clearly went on at Pine Valley after 1914 or 1915 is fiction rather than fact then please be my guest.

T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2003, 07:45:27 PM »
I don't have his book....in fact I reckon very few on GCA have access to the book. What occcured in the early 20's is interesting...I have seen many of those documents...but my focus is on what happened between 1912 and Crump's death in 1918.

What clearly went on between 1914 and 1915...what are the known facts?

wsmorrison

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2003, 08:04:42 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Really now, are you disputing the PVGC scorecard from 1919 and the Tillinghast writings?  I suggest you go to the Tillinghast Society website and go to the newsletter section and check out #14--The Development of Pine Valley.  You'll get some information to understand the timeline.  It seems to me that you are trying to establish the finish of the golf course years too early.  Now I must insist you stop bothering Tom Paul with these assertions, he has a book to write!

wsmorrison

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #82 on: November 09, 2003, 08:08:42 PM »
Beyond the above mentioned two sources, to get a better idea what the known facts are from 1914-1915 (and/or 1912-1918, although I maintain that 1918-1921 are extremely interesting as well) you can get a copy of the Finegan PVGC book, ask Mr. Finegan who had complete access to the PVGC archives for several years, or see if you can get access to see them yourself at the club.    
« Last Edit: November 09, 2003, 08:09:26 PM by wsmorrison »

T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #83 on: November 09, 2003, 09:29:47 PM »
Wayne
Have you read my comments on this thread?

T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2003, 06:58:29 AM »
Wayne
I discovered the PV article on the Tillie website a while back...and brought it to the attention of TE. I also have copies of the original articles. IMO the Tillie articles are among the most illustrative information available, along with other contemporaneous articles from Carr, Travis, Traverse, Beale, Darwin, etc.

None of the articles talk about Crump being in a design box or on-going clearing/experimentation, or give those as reasons for the delay in completing the final holes. Perhaps the information is out there, that is the reason for the questions regarding what Finegan bases his threory upon. Pretty simple.

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #85 on: November 10, 2003, 08:13:28 AM »
"that is the reason for the questions regarding what Finegan bases his threory upon. Pretty simple."

Tom MacW:

You may think it's pretty simple but to even begin to attempt to answer some of your questions first tell me in detail what is it exactly that you mean when you refer to "Finegan's theory". I find that remark pretty amazing when you admit you've not only not read his history book but never even seen it. So what is it that I or anyone else has said that makes you question "Finegan's theory"--whatever that is? If by "Finegan's theory" you mean what he assumed or concluded about Colt's contribution to PVGC in either routing or eventual hole "design" just go back and reread my posts on that in the last few pages of this thread.

And if by "Finegan's Theory" you mean why it took the club so long to finish those last four holes then I swear you should get yourself a copy of Finegan's book and read it. The timelines of how long it took the club to finish the course and most all the reasons why are right there and they definitely are not fiction as you seem to suspect! That all comes from the archives of PVGC. Do you think those archives which are basically contemporneous documentation are fictional?

Probably most all of what Tillinghast wrote about PVGC is also in the PVGC archives but again, one just has to look at the entire scope of the creation of PVGC and not just something Tillinghast wrote in 1914-1915. No matter what Tillinghast wrote about when he thought it should be finished or when he said they hoped it should be finished is definitely not the real story. All that was was a "hope". One needs to continue looking at the ENTIRE record to see when they DID finish!!

Come on Tom, PVGC certainly knows when various holes on the course opened for play--again, all that's in their contemporaneous documentation in their archives. Why in the world would you question something that basic, factual and obvious? And they basically know who did those holes, when and why. The information comes not only from PVGC's archives but from other sources as well such as the letters of the Wilsons that Wayne and I came across in the last year. Basically it's factual that Merion got involved in both agronomic questions and constructing those final holes to Crump's final design and we now know that Merion and the Wilson's sent William Flynn to oversee it;

In a letter from Hugh Wilson to Piper and Oakley, Wilson states "we sent Bill Flynn to PVGC for an extended period of time." This was at that time that Grinnell Willis contributed the $20,000 to finish those four holes following Crump's death. Willis contributed that money in early 1919 and then those holes continued to get built and opened for play in the summer of 1920.

T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #86 on: November 10, 2003, 08:37:46 AM »
TE
First of all, I accept the fact the course was not completed during Crump's lifetime....I think there may have been some confusion as to what I was asking.

Perhaps it isn’t Finegan’s theory, maybe it is your theory, I don’t know. You cited that one of the reason’s the course was not completed during Crump's lifetime (12 thru 15) was because Crump built himself into a design box. I have read many of the articles from that time, I have not read anyone making that observation. My question is: Is that explanation based on some written information Crump, Carr, Smith, Tillinghast, the Wilson’s or someone else left?

The other theory is regarding Crump (and Govan apparently) doing a lot of clearing to experiment with potential holes and routings…is this based on written documentation?

I don't doubt there is concrete information out there (or if no concrete info, the theory is a well-reasoned educated guess), I'm just curious what the nature of the theory is--documented fact or well-reasoned speculation.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2003, 09:05:42 AM by Tom MacWood »

wsmorrison

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2003, 09:15:53 AM »
Tom MacWood,

I have read your comments on this thread, although with declining scrutiny.  My interpretation of your comments were that you believed the course was finished prior to Tom Paul's explanations.  To me, this was due to the fact that you were basing your conclusion entirely too much on Tillinghast's comments (I too have copies of the entire articles) that proved themselves wrong over time.  His stated hopes and expectations regarding the completion of the course did not come about in the timeframe he suggested over and over.  

Scorecards and various archival materials at the club and the basis for the Finegan history book clearly prove otherwise.  At this point there is a fair amount of historical evidence but not that well organized and probably an equal amount of educated surmises.  I suspect you want to compartmentalize everything and determine what is fact and what is assumptions (educated and otherwise).  This is a proper thing to do.  However, it will take and intensive study and that has not yet been fully done.  I don't know when or if it will be done, however I suspect it won't for years to come.  I think it a decidedly valuable thing to do.  But at this stage, I don't feel the answers you are looking for are available.  Your frustration is warranted, this is key information to our understanding of golf architecture history in America.

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2003, 02:04:14 PM »
"Perhaps it isn’t Finegan’s theory, maybe it is your theory, I don’t know. You cited that one of the reason’s the course was not completed during Crump's lifetime (12 thru 15) was because Crump built himself into a design box. I have read many of the articles from that time, I have not read anyone making that observation. My question is: Is that explanation based on some written information Crump, Carr, Smith, Tillinghast, the Wilson’s or someone else left?"

Tom MacW:

The theory that Crump constructed himself into somewhat of a "design box" is definitely not the theory of anyone I've ever heard of. I've never seen that written anywhere, by anyone or heard of anyone who's offered that as even one of the explanations of why Crump struggled with finalizing the last four holes (#12-#15).

That theory, and it is a theory, is completely my own. I've already mentioned that there were obviously a number of OTHER contributing reasons why those four remaining holes were so long in getting constructed.

Again, those other contributing reasons (which are documented);

1. WW1 and the fact that most everything in construction architecture slowed down at that point. The USA went to war April 6 1917 and an armistice was signed Nov 11 1918. That was approximately 19 months and that hiatus clearly slowed down PVGC too.
2. George Crump died in Jan 1918. I sure hope I don’t need to convince you of that fact or the significance to PVGC of it!
3. As has been mentioned the course played very nicely as an 18 hole course with 14 holes in play obviously owing to the way they could be played and resulting in golfers being back next to the clubhouse at #4 after playing 18 holes! This certainly was mentioned from documentation within the archives and other sources.

But the idea or theory that Crump constructed himself into a “design box” is, again, my own theory or idea. Here’s why I said it and why I believe it.

Firstly, we know that when Crump began the project at PVGC he was a rank amateur architect and we sure know when it all ended for him he had extraordinary respect from the entire architectural community. This could hardly be other than a true exhibition of both talent and a remarkable learning curve Second, we know without question that he threw himself into the project in an architectural sense in every imaginable way. We know he basically lived at PVGC, first in a tent and later in a bungalow. Everyone connected to Crump confirms that his mission at PVGC was basically a daily one there. We know from Crump’s closest friends that he went into the project of PVGC with a number of very definite and unique ideas of what the golf course should be—and that very much meant what may be referred to as somewhat of a “design prescription”. Why did he feel that way and why did he develop that “design prescription”? Much of that may have just been Crump’s own makeup, his personality, the fact that he was a good player who believed strongly in various things regarding golf, architecture etc. He clearly was a golfer who strongly believed in the heroic shot, the maximum high demand drive, for instance—and that aspect apparently was a personal preference. So we know the driver was a significant interest and concern (in an architectural sense) to him. But primarily he developed that golf course to be a place, a laboratory, a training ground, if you will, for the best in the Philadelphia district, primarily the competitive set, or competition set, to improve themselves to compete more successfully on the regional and national level. This is undeniable and the evidence is everywhere regarding it. The fact is Crump’s ideas apparently morphed very quickly with PVGC as basically being a course that offered winter golf to that of a high demand design course for basically just the good player is really well known and frankly undeniable!

What is known, but perhaps less so, is that from Crump’s own known remarks as well as   what he told his closest friends privately, certainly Carr and Smith--that he went into the PVGC project not only with very definite ideas of the demands of various holes but also almost exactly where they should be on the course and in the routing! Remember that last aspect because it’s really important in the theory that eventually he basically “designed himself into a bit of a box”. We also know that Crump clearly had a few other strong preferences (“design prescriptions”) that he wanted and meant to have. A few would include no more than two holes in the same direction, that the holes should “box the compass” well, that the holes should be individualized to be as visually separated from each other as possible! That there should be only two par 5s and they should be completely unreachable in two shots. Basically, he wanted all his design demands and prescriptions in very definite spots and in a definite order!

Did Crump come up with this “design prescription” on his own or did someone or others influence him on it? That’s probably unknowable now. Did Colt influence him on that? Perhaps, but it’s far more likely to me that Crump influenced Colt’s contribution at PVGC alone on that aspect by simply telling him that’s what he wanted to do at PVGC in this “design prescription” sense and that clearly Colt bought into that “design prescription” to some degree, probably a very large degree. And if for some reason Colt did not buy into that “design prescription” or to the satisfaction or degree Crump wanted then Crump intended to add that degree himself! That, to me, is very likely, as Crump clearly kept working on the “design” of the course, bunkering, placement, shot values, whatever, continuously and long after Colt left town! That is to me the clear reason Crump did all that continuously instead of simply constructing the golf course completely to Colt’s routing and to Colt’s hole by hole design booklet! This to me is so patently obvious as to be beyond question. Crump definitely had the resources and he had the time and the desire to construct all of PVGC to Colt’s plans within the year if he wanted to. But we know beyond any doubt that that’s not what he did---he continued to work on the course with the input of others for the next five years!

So back to that “design box” theory. Crump knew what he wanted throughout the course and exactly where, in the way of a “design prescription” but to get that on the land, that land, in that day and age, isn’t so simple. Crump constructed up to 14 holes by 1916, three years after Colt left. But even those holes although perhaps in the same routing form as Colt recommended, left, collaborated on, whatever, were changed by Crump in many ways in design and in the manner of bunkering, placement, whatever, and also probably in the manner of the famous “island” landing areas. The greens too were probably almost uniquely Crump’s influence, alteration, whatever. We certainly know some worked beautifully but not all and some were redesigned later almost had to be redesigned. Some greens were redone when Crump was alive! But we know that the holes #12-15 with Colt’s routing lines are not what they are now. #12 was one Crump was known to struggle with. #13 was far different in the Colt iteration. It appears Colt had a par 4 for #14 if he had much at all there. #15 by Colt was basically the same landform use but this one clearly Crump struggled with until the day he died (Carr’s sad remark that that was the last words he had with Crump before he died.

Crump had four holes to go and clearly he couldn’t decide how to get them done to fit into his “design prescription”. This is clear evidence to me that Crump had essentially constructed himself into a design box. How could he have over-come that from the git-go? Simply by completely finalizing his design before he began constructing the golf course and certainly before constructing 14 holes which left him with limited space to do some very definite hole requirements. As far as I can see Colt may have only designed three par 3s on that golf course and certainly that alone was not going to satisfy Crump’s well known four par 3 design requirement (design prescription) of four very different par 3s. If the famous #13 fell into place early and really wasn’t the reason that basically turned the key to make the rest fall into place then perhaps it was #14 or his final dissatisfaction with #15. Those holes were not in play until two and a half years after Crump died and they happen to be magnificent holes but obviously they concerned him. So that’s a “design box” to me—you’re locked in with 14 holes in play, you’re down to limited space and not able to figure out how to get exactly what you want on those  remaining four in that limited space. It’s really no different than trying to fit four remaining lengths of posts and rails into a fence line when the rest of the fence line is done on either side!




Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2003, 02:35:35 PM »
Tom

Colt didn't route three par 3s.  There are clearly 4 in his blue pen.  Plus I can't think of a single Colt course with fewer than 4 par 3s.

I'm not convinced that Crump was constantly clearing trees and shot testing for new holes.  There are a couple of places where that looks to have happened (13th).  But if he was constantly doing this, then why are nearly all the greens in the same position as the blue/red routing plan?

The 15th is as Colt routed other than the island tee.  And the 12th isn't far off either.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2003, 02:37:33 PM by P_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2003, 03:17:43 PM »
Here's an interesting article/interview by Darwin from 1911 (i.e before PV).  Does Colt's design philosophy for holes, for a Championship course, remind you of anywhere?  ;)


« Last Edit: November 10, 2003, 03:18:59 PM by P_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2003, 03:19:20 PM »
Paul;

Where are the clearing lines for shot testing of potential holes?

There appears to be one way out near dormie house on past the sixth green. This would square with something Tillinghast said about a potential 7th (?) with a drive across a gorge-before before Colt arrived. The 7th ended up going about 180 degrees in the opposite direction. It appears to have been cleared down to the left and right where Crump had a short par 3 #5 (before Colt convinced him a super long par 3 could be doable). There's clearing and a proposed tee for #6 down to the right too. There're clearing lines next to John Ott's house for a hole (#7) that was coming from near #11 tee. That probably would've made #6 the 8th hole. There's clearing way out to the right of #7's second half as Crump intended to swing that right on the second shot (had he lived) Right of #10 green is cleared for a green that Crump thought of in there (#6?). There's clearing all through the intersection of #11 green, #15 green and to the left of #12 tee, You can see a proposed tee for #12 down near the 11th green! There's clearing out past and to the right of #12 when that hole was proposed to go straight instead of turning left to the present green. I doubt that very cleared area way out there was for a hole though. #13 is cleared way right when a proposed green for that hole was maybe 150 yards short and to the right of the present green. There's clearing all down the hill to the water to the left of #13 green obviously to test for about five potential iterations of #14 including a par 4. There's clearing along the left of #17 and #11 tee when that green was proposed in that area (Crump). And one of Crump's iterations for #6 (?) was for a green right of #10 green a proposed tee for #18 probably would've been on #10 green. Crump also wanted to swing #9 into a dogleg left and basically the same with #11 with a green much higher on the hill to the left but he died before that happened.

There is a famous line from Crump when he was asked when he would finally finish that golf course. His famous response was,  "NEVER!"

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2003, 03:30:14 PM »
Interesting speculation, many of these match up with the first stick diagram.  And so may well have been abandoned very early on i.e when Colt arrived.



can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2003, 03:42:12 PM »
To all, I think this is about all you really need to know--Long live the memory and spirit of George Crump!

I was a member of Pine Valley at the time of its construction. I watched George Crump build it. I grew up with it in golfing knowledge. How we all loved George Crump who made this dream possible and how we all sorrowed when he left us! No matter where I live, I will always hold my Pine Valley resident membership. - Captain Geo. C. Thomas--Golf Architecture in America circa 1927

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2003, 04:20:03 PM »
Paul:

Remind me? Nobody has ever said George Crump didn't hire Harry Colt. Nobody ever said Colt didn't spend a week at PVGC with Crump. And I'm sure not saying when he was there he didn't do anything. He did a lot, there's no question. But what stayed as he designed it, and what he was responsible for designing in either routing or otherwise still isn't clear in detail.

The trick here is to figure out what was incorporated by Colt that Crump had come up with or done before Colt arrived and  what they they came up with when there together and who might have been responsible for what. Call all that the before Colt arrived and during Colt's visit.

That's the first half. The second half is what Crump et al did after Colt left and what he was doing to the course for the next five years. I guess you must think that Finegan's reporting that Crump and Govan constantly shot tested together to place bunkering and probably green orientation, green designs, whatever, was made up by him out of whole cloth. I guess you must think that what Crump did changing all kinds of design aspects of the course, although not necessarily basically routed holes is some kind of fiction too.

You keep saying that the bunkering on that course is basically Colt's. That isn't even close. Basically all the holes that have bunkering red-lined is Crump et al expanding them, adding them, changing them etc. The only hole out there I can see where Crump basically went exactly with Colt bunkering is #9 where the bunkering on the mid-body of the hole as is now is Colts'. And Crump added bunkers on the beginning of that hole too, changed the green, added one behind. The bunkering on #11 by Colt was basically never used. It goes on and on like that where the blue line bunkering that has no red-lines on or near it that you can see on the routing map wasn't used. Again #9 is the best example of no red lines where the blue lined bunkering was used. #1, #2, #4, #7, #8, #12, #13, #14, #16 same thing where if there's any blue lines in or around the red-lining--the red-lining is generally to very much expanded it. On #17 they certainly used the big bunker on the right that Colt drew (the one where he mentioned "tear away") but few of the others on the course exactly as Colt drew them or where he drew them were used as is. #18 as well.

You two guys still seem to think Crump took five years there simply constructing to Colt's plans and watching the grass grow. It's unbelievable.

Colt's real contribution there was as alway suspected--in routing but as to exactly what all that was it's still not certain, except that it was certainly something.

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #95 on: November 10, 2003, 04:25:07 PM »
"Interesting speculation, many of these match up with the first stick diagram.  And so may well have been abandoned very early on i.e when Colt arrived."

Paul:

Absolutely. How do you think I've been trying to check what it was that Colt really did help him with and contributed on his own? You think all I'm trying to do is minimize Colt. Nothing of the kind. Eventually all this cross-checking of any kind will reveal who was responsible for what as far as can ever be known at this point.




Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2003, 04:38:49 PM »
Tom,

I thought that it was interesting that Colt basically states his design philsophy of a championship course and it matches PV.  So rather than thinking that Crump had his "presciption" and simply told Colt what he wanted, down to order of holes and hole length (as you imply above); it may well have been true that Colt was the more influential of the two and Crump bought into Colt's prescription for a Champ course.  It may be a coincidence that St George's Hill matches Pine Valley so closely in hole length and sequence, but then again...  

Perhaps Crump met Colt at Sunningdale in 1910 and they discussed the make up of a Championship course?

Harry Colt, the father of the Philadephian Championship golf course  :D

I didn't say the bunkers are basically Colt's.  I agree with some of your analysis of bunkers at PV, but there are blue lines under red lines on many holes and there are bunkers drawn in red that weren't built.  Also, some of the red lines are drawing the scrub/waste areas which I think were simply inherent to the sandy site: see the 16th.  Need to see the Colt book to be sure about all this.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2003, 05:00:33 PM by P_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #97 on: November 10, 2003, 06:21:03 PM »
From Joseph Baker;

"In 1910 we (Baker and Crump) made a three months trip to Europe, playing on various courses--Walton Heath, Sunningdale, Turnberry, Prestwick, Hoylake (where he played with John Ball, Champion of England, who beat him 2 and 1) and St. Andrews (where I bought my first golf clubs)....then we went down to Dover, where there were three golf courses [Royal St Georges, Royal Cinque Ports, and Princes], and he played 54 holes in one day."

Perhaps Crump was influenced by Colt somehow before he conceived of PVGC but none of his closest friends seemed to be aware of that. More likely Crump was probably just influenced by the Heathland architecture he saw on that trip and his own thinking about high demand golf and golf architecture and the reason and necessity for it in this area where he and his friends were known to feel the courses around Philadelphia pre-1910 were not what they should be.

That he actually wrote home from England in Dec 1910 so that his brother in-law would get him a map of Camden County suggests the project was in his mind at that point. Very likely he must have well aware of Colt's Heathland involvment as an architect but again there's no evidence he knew him in England or even met him there. Colt was obviously well known as a world class architect when Crump bought PVGC in the fall of 1912.

So who knows other than it was well known by his friends and acquaintences that Crump had some very definite ideas on architecture and he certainly was a fine competitive player.

But I think the thing that you and Tom MacWood need to come to grips with is if Colt had the kind of influence on George Crump that you're suggesting he had then why wouldn't Crump have simply followed the design plan that Colt offered him and gotten the course constructed perhaps within the year as Wilson did at Merion? That certainly would've been the easiest and most convenient thing for all to do--and certainly understandable particularly if he'd paid him the clearly exorbitant and probably completely unprecedented sum of $10,000 for a week on site.

Why would he have been out there himself taking all that time those next five years doing all those things on a daily basis which are so well known and so comprehensively reported from the archives and by all those who were around PVGC that were architects and knew architecture? So many of them--Tillinghast, Thomas, Travers, Travis, Hunter, the Wilsons etc, etc---said those things about him which suggest all the things he'd done at that course when his end finally came prematurely at 47 in Jan 1918. If he'd simply built PVGC to Colt's plans would they have said those things about him? It's unimaginable that they all would have. But you guys seem to feel that all those people were on some campaign to glorify him and his accomplishments and to minimize Colt for some reason. To me anything remotely close to that theory just doesn't fly--it just makes no logical sense!

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #98 on: November 10, 2003, 06:30:23 PM »
Paul:

I think it is very interesting--very interesting that Colt's ideas on the so-called "Championship course" were known and written about as early as 1911--and by Darwin.

Frankly, I'm completely fascinated by those types of ideas and influences because it puts together so much better exactly what the evolution of golf architecture was all about, when and from where.

I love trying to track influences in golf architecture and certainly they all have to come from somewhere and this doesn't surprise me at all about a championship course idea and is just another reason why I said on another earlier thread that in my opinion one of the greatest influences on all of golf architecture may have been the Heathlands and that incredible contingent that were known as the early Heathland architects.


Paul_Turner

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Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #99 on: November 10, 2003, 06:33:32 PM »
From Joseph Baker;

"But I think the thing that you and Tom MacWood need to come to grips with is if Colt had the kind of influence on George Crump that you're suggesting he had then why wouldn't Crump have simply followed the design plan that Colt offered him and gotten the course constructed perhaps within the year as Wilson did at Merion? That certainly would've been the easiest and most convenient thing for all to do--and certainly understandable particularly if he'd paid him the clearly exorbitant and probably completely unprecedented sum of $10,000 for a week on site.

Why would he have been out there himself taking all that time those next five years doing all those things on a daily basis which are so well known and so comprehensively reported from the archives and by all those who were around PVGC that were architects and knew architecture? So many of them--Tillinghast, Thomas, Travers, Travis, Hunter, the Wilsons etc, etc---said those things about him which suggest all the things he'd done at that course when his end finally came prematurely at 47 in Jan 1918. If he'd simply built PVGC to Colt's plans would they have said those things about him? It's unimaginable that they all would have. But you guys seem to feel that all those people were on some campaign to glorify him and his accomplishments and to minimize Colt for some reason. To me anything remotely close to that theory just doesn't fly--it just makes no logical sense!

Tom

Wasn't Merion a much friendlier site than PV.  Pine Valley was a pretty hostile site.

I think we can be pretty sure that the course was almost entirely DESIGNED well before Crump died (although obviously not fully built).  We can date the drawings shown in the Travis article (1916) and those are pretty accurate apart from the 12th being missing and the 14th being that Cape hole.  The 13th is about right, as is the 15th.

When Crump dies, the obituaries in the magazines (GI and American Golfer) do not have Crump as the "designer".  He's called the  "founder", "financier"...
« Last Edit: November 10, 2003, 06:37:22 PM by P_Turner »
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