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T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2003, 08:30:11 PM »
TE
How did Colt route 12 thru 15? When did those holes finally come into form?

How do we know Crump strugled with the design of those holes?

Who is responsilbe for the blue and red stick routing?

Finegan's fixation on the $10,000 payment is an interesting sidebar, but really doesn't help clear up who did what, in fact it muddies the water IMO.

Paul_Turner

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Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2003, 01:55:44 AM »
Tom Paul

I've actually chatted to Tom Doak about the Colt book and he stated that the strategy of the holes is similar to the holes that were built (much like the 17th shown in Finnegan's book).  I trust his judgment.  I think essentially Colt's book will look much like the blue lines in the routing plan-just more detail shown.

I now have a better copy of that early stick plan (I'll send to you Tom).  It appears to follow Tillie's reports.  The first 4 holes are in the correct place, the 18th is  shifted a bit.  The 7th (9th in the plan) isn't far off.  But the rest of the holes, which are numbered in sequence on the stick plan, (as I  speculated in an earlier thread) have virtually no resemblance to the current holes.  None of the current back 9 holes are shown.  (NB This first stick plan certainly appears to have more than one hand on it.)  It should also be noted that the hole progression shown, does not use the land well.  Certainly nowhere near as cohesive as the plan Colt drew.

From the current evidence, the bottom line is this: only after Colt's visit, was the course fully routed in a shape that's very similar to the final layout.  Of course, we can speculate that Crump collaborated with Colt at this stage.  But having some knowlege of how Colt liked to work (alone), I find this to be very unlikely (see the Travers excerpt).  I find it much more unlikey that Crump had the whole of the course routed before Colt arrived.  There's absolutely no evidence that suggests this, quite the contrary in fact.  

Another area where I think Colt influenced PV (but cannot prove) is in style.  Before Colt arrives, Tillie mentions a proposed "Alpinisation" at the 3rd.  I believe that Colt steared away from this style (he didn't like it) and was highly influential in the "natural" style of PV; if you read his PV hole drawing book he uses word like "tear ridge" and draws some huge bunkers.  These are reminscient of the huge bunkers at the 8th at St George's Hill which are in turn very similar to bunkers built at PV.  Crump did see some of the heathland courses in 1910, but he never saw St George's Hill which had those bunkers on a much larger scale and were more rugged than earlier heath courses like: Sunningdale, Walton Heath...

NB 15 is pretty much as Colt drew in blue. And the 12th isn't far off either.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2003, 01:59:52 AM by P_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2003, 06:34:21 AM »
Paul:

With your post #51--now we're getting somewhere. If you plug those questions into what some of those who were around there back then said and wrote (Hunter, Thomas, Tillinghast, Wilson (particularly Alan) and Carr, Smith etc.) things start to jibe somewhat with the things both of us are speculating about as to who did what and when.

I don't disagree with anything you said in post #51 but at this point both of us (and anyone else) basically have to use commonsense with everything we know and know we don't know about what went on there then and later.

As for the question of whether or not Colt worked alone out there for that week or two in 1913 we will never really know because as the record (archives) seems to indicate there basically is nothing left or ever recorded at all by either of them or anyone else about that week or so time and how they collaborated.

But commonsense would seem to shed some light on that. How likely would it be to assume that Crump called for Colt and paid him $10,000 and Colt told Crump he really didn't want to talk to him or collaborate with him out there? Not very likely, in my opinion. Plus one needs to look at the situation out there then. At that point (May 1913) Crump lived there in a tent (he really did live there leading some to start calling him an eccentric at that point) near where he built his litttle bungalow. Where would Colt have stayed if not there? Do you think Colt may have pitched his own tent somewhere else out there so he could work alone? I doubt that.

Actually if one reads Finegan's book carefully he did speculate on how different their personalities were and what unalike characters they must have been together (Crump being a super friendly, super out-going type and Colt the precise and formal English gentleman).

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2003, 07:52:19 AM »
Tom MacW asked;

"TE
How did Colt route 12 thru 15? When did those holes finally come into form?"

That's on the routing map that hangs in the clubhouse. It's complicated and I'll talk about those holes and others later. Basically those holes apparently came into their completed design form in 1917 probably in the last half of 1917. They had not been constructed, however, when Crump died suddenly in the beginning of 1918.

"How do we know Crump strugled with the design of those holes?"

We know that from numerous, numerous sources and a ton of written material. That fact is all over PVGC's records in all kinds of ways. Even how it was finally resolved has been recorded (although perhaps still not conclusively) since the beginning. It's pretty interesting.

"Who is responsilbe for the blue and red stick routing?"

First of all, Tom, the so-called second and last routing map is more than a 'stick routing', as you say, but Colt and Crump are responsible. There may be a few other notations on that apparently second and last routing map from another or others, though. It seems pretty evident that Crump continued to use that routing map and to continuously alter it, perhaps for years.

"Finegan's fixation on the $10,000 payment is an interesting sidebar, but really doesn't help clear up who did what, in fact it muddies the water IMO."

Finegan doesn't have a fixation on that $10,000 payment Tom, although you may have. Finegan simply mentions it in a small paragraph as an interesting story and one that he concludes to be perhaps the distorted recollection of an old man (37 years later this was first mentioned by Baker). Jim Finegan concludes that paying an architect in that day and age $10,000 was simply completely unprecedented and completely exorbitant, particularly for such a short amount of time. Why would anyone resist that assumption as the fact that a payment that large back then truly would've been exorbitant and very likely completely unprecedented? To me it's a very valid question on Finegan's part. Perhaps you and Paul don't like to hear it questioned because it appears to question Colt's contribution but if you read Finegan's book and read it carefully even that isn't true.

The reason Finegan questioned Colt's contribution is twofold.

First, because he does not believe that the course and its holes turned out in design that similar to Colt's hole drawings! Finegan mentioned that the holes of PVGC compared to Colt's hole drawings "have some similarities...but many differences."

Paul Turner disputes that but one must understand that at this point Paul Turner has never seen Colt's hole drawings (except hole #17 which was in Finegan's book). Paul is simply relying on what Tom Doak said about those Colt hole drawings ("That the strategies appear similar"). On that note, anyone knows that holes in golf may have completely similar strategies but not be similar holes or similar looking holes. We have just redone a hole at GMGC that has remarkably similar strategies to ANGC's #13 because the evidence proves that Perry Maxwell dedicatedly attempted to copy the strategies of ANGC's #13 there in what I call a "concept copy" (one with exactly similar strategies that may not look much at all the same).

Second, and most importantly, Finegan made a very simple but extremely meaningful assumption in his research (in my opinion) that the date on the second and last routing map meant the date that Crump finished the routing of PVGC! That, in my opinion, although an understandable thing to assume was incorrect and basically took Jim Finegan, and perhaps anyone else who's ever looked at that routing map down the wrong road to the wrong conclusion! Since that date preceded the arrival of Colt, Finegan (and maybe others) assumed that Crump must have finished the routing before Colt arrived. That date on the routing map is pretty faint now but my strong assumption is that that date is the surveyor's date and the date the surveyor finished the topo map and gave it to Crump! So one can start to see the significance of that apparently incorrect assumption.

The blue and red lines? It's my strong belief that no one has understood the significance of what they meant until perhaps two years ago. I've asked all those there now who know that course best, including John Ott, who knows as much about that course and its history as anyone has and he said to his knowledge no one has ever noticed the significance of the red and blue lines.

Who noticed their significance? I did. Why? Because researching this subject about 2-3 years ago I noticed that Colt used a light blue pen or pencil throughout his individual hole drawing booklet (from Finegan)--apparently the very same light blue lines that appear on that second and last routing map. (The use of similar colored pencils is something Wayne and I picked up from researching Flynn as it appears Flynn used a rusty colored pencil in the field almost throughout his carreer!). But whose to say that Crump may not have picked up and used that light blue pencil? Here's the reason why I concluded it had to be Colt. Firstly, the drawing style between the blue lines and the red lines (Crump) is vastly different but secondly, and more significantly, it's a well known fact (recorded) that Crump made a now semi famous remark to his friends (later written by his friends) that Colt's positioning of green #2 off to the left of where it is now was "NO GOOD!" So I looked at that second and last routing map and there in light blue pencil drawn off to the left was the green on #2 with the tee for #3 right in the middle of where #2 green is now! So with that I concluded that the light blue lines on the second and last routing map had to have been Colt's. I'm sure you can see the significance of all this.



« Last Edit: November 09, 2003, 08:11:14 AM by TEPaul »

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2003, 09:56:40 AM »
Tom

Colt doesn't use a blue pen in his hole drawing booklet. We don't have to rely on the colour of a pen, the blue routing is definitely in Colt's hand.  Compare his drawing style with the Colt's drawing in Shackelford's Golden Age book; it's identical.

Tom Doak didn't only say to me that the strategy was similar.  He also added that the hole shapes, length, hazard position, are generally consistant with the holes that were built.  And so, as the Colt/Crump routing is generally accurate, if you walked the property with Colt's booklet and that routing plan, you could picture a majority of holes that are close to what's there now.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2003, 10:04:56 AM »
Paul:

I was wondering how long it was going to take you to get out of bed or out of your muck-stewing bath and answer me! That was a nice day yesterday but I'm never driving to Long Island again. The drive home last night was beyond freaking belief! How do those people live around that city anymore--and I come from there? Every time they get in their car to go around the block has to be like anyone's worst nightmare. What the two of us should do is what George and Harry probably did--just go pitch a tent at PVGC and that's the extent of it!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2003, 10:06:11 AM by TEPaul »

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2003, 10:12:00 AM »
Tom,

It was a great day.  It certainly a bit embarrassing seeing a friend straight after a good GCA slanging match!

I went a different route, 'cos I knew the Cross Bronx is a complete nightmare.   Is that where you got stuck?  
(Although, I didn't realise the Verrazano was $8 in the E-W direction)
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2003, 10:17:05 AM »
It's not the first time and probably won't be the last time someone has accused me of being color-blind but the lines and text on both Colt's hole drawing and the routing map appear to me to be blue. But additionally it's very clear the style is the same on both--neither of which, I might add anyone ever appeared to have noticed until about two years ago. All of it just proves to me, though, that whenever anyone looks at this kind of material in combination one should not just look at it but look at it at all times with a very definite and very specific purpose in mind.

T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2003, 10:20:15 AM »
TE
I've seen plenty of specualtion that Crump struggled with the design of 12 thru 15 but no evidence from that time. The specualtion appears to be based mostly on the delay with the constuction of those holes.

After looking at quite bit of info....here is my take as of today.

Crump walked and studied the site. He determined a clubhouse site. He routed seven starting holes and determined the 18th hole (all of this off his clubhouse site).

The third set of markings on the topo are Crumps--rudementorary in appearance and matchingTillie's description. In fact the 3rd green--the Mid-Surrey hole--is slight off to the right of the red and blue (current) green. In the Carr article, the photo of the 3rd shows what looks to be Alpinazation off to the right. Crump appears to have holes running everywhere.

I don't believe he was totally satisfied with all of his starting holes and was having difficulty tying everything into reasonable 18-hole routing. Realizing the potential of the site, Crump call in the man who was arguably the best architect in the world. He may have met him when touring Sunningdale and the healthland gems.

Colt takes Crumps first four holes (changes the 3rd), as legend has it he discovers the 5th, as legend doesn't have it he lays out an entire 18-hole routing (he also appears to have made a change to the body of the 18th). Its one thing to discover individual holes here and there, its another to put it all together in a ballanced course of 18 strong golf holes.

Colt leaves the US. He later sends his drawing from the UK. It seems likely the two continue to correspond. Colt can help with construction advice and with perhaps some changes to the plan (the fact that Colt has early photos of PVGC would support the fact they were corresponding). Construction begins nearest the clubhouse and moving out in stages. Play begins on those holes as each stage concludes. The last stage is 12-15 the furthest point.

Early on turf condition become a severe issue. Reginald Beale is called in (Bristish grass expert and Colt man)--7/1914. The plan is to seed the remaining holes in the fall of 1914. In the spring of 1915 the last holes will be completed as rapidly as possible. There is a gap in the reports. Next report January 1916, the club has hired the portege of the late F. Taylor of Sunnnybrook--Taylor was the foremost grass expert in America. The greens are not contructed on the remaining holes. 4/1916 all efforts are on trying to recover the holes already completed. They are also attempting to identify what they did wrong so as not to repeat the mistakes on the remaining holes. The two problems identified are bad humus and not allowing the muck to dry sufficently. 14 holes will be ready the following spring (1917). 5/1917 work now being pushed on the last four holes. A big gap in the reports. Crump dead reported May 1918.

Travis's reversable drawing of 1915 shows the course pretty much as it was constructed, with the exception of the 14th. As some point (late 1914 or early 1915) the 13th was altered. That may have effected Colt's original design for the 14th, but I don't think it was a big issue. At least there are no reports that the 14th was a big issue. Interesting Colt's plans originally called for the 14th to be a par-3 (according to Finegan), but it was changed early on to a short par-4. For some reason Alison doesn't commet on the hole; Smith and Carr simply say as 'Crump planned it'.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2004, 01:22:29 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #59 on: November 09, 2003, 10:26:48 AM »
Not only IS the Verrazzano $8.00 in an E-W direction but the trip was so freaking slow anyway that I felt no loss of time to sit at the toll-booth for about ten minutes and harangue the toll collector on the various historical differences and forms of highway robbery until he told me if I didn't move on he'd have me arrested for either loitering or haranguing without a NYC permit! The nerve of that bastard!

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2003, 12:11:29 PM »
Tom MacW:

The holes of PVGC were constructed and came into play in these stages.

Eleven holes--#1-9, #10 & #18 were built and unofficially opened for play by late February 1914.

Fourteen holes--those above but now including #11, #16, #17 were opened for play during the first half of 1916.

Eighteen holes--those above and now including #12-#15 were built and in play by the summer of 1920.

I don't know who Reginald Beale is but a Robert Bender who worked for Fredrick Taylor who was known to have invented a revolutionary new green construction method (that was apparently used at PVGC) was believed to have worked on constructing and/or reconstructing a number of greens at Pine Valley and was apparently going to redo more just before Crump died.

PVGC had two agronomic failures, in 1915 (I believe) and again in 1919. The reasons were both poor humus at first but in both instances basically a proper agromomic growing medium had not been properly used and basically the super sandy soil was draining through too well making it impossible for the agronomy to take hold long term.

As to the construction of holes #12-15 it was the Wilsons of Merion who lent themselves to PVGC to do that, again in 1919-1920 and we know from letters from Wilson to Piper and Oakley that it was Flynn who was lent to PVGC by them and Merion to actually do that work for those months.

(most of this is from Jim Finegan's 2000 history book on PVGC)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2003, 12:17:51 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2003, 12:16:27 PM »
On the subject of agronomy and the problems with it at PVGC, again, I've not heard of Colt's man Reginald Beale but we do know in and around 1919-1920 that the Wilsons/Piper & Oakley (including Toomey and Flynn) had become recognized as perhaps the world's experts on golf course agronomy and we have a letter from England from Colt requesting their help and their research!

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #62 on: November 09, 2003, 12:49:28 PM »
To give you a glimpse into the apparent modus operandi of Crump with the design and construction of PVGC I'd offer this description by Finegan who had the entire PVGC archives at his home during the years he wrote his recent history book;

"Govan became construction foreman and then the club's first greenkeeper and golf professional---much had already been done by the time he arrived (March 1, 1914). Eleven holes had been built by late February 1914 and had opened unofficially for play. But much still remained to be done, for the 11 that had opened were far from finished and another seven were still to be built. The two men worked together harmoniously, each respectful of the other's intelligence and dedication. Govan's upbringing at St. Andrews, with its spectaclular undulating double greens and its bold bunkering was very useful here. Moreover, his skill in ball striking (Govan was a scratch professional) helped when it came to siting bunkers and determining their size and shape. Dipping into a bucket of balls, the professional and the crack amateur would both line out a number of drives and approach shots---diliberately hitting slices and hooks as well as straight shots--which Crump would then use as guideposts for positioning of sand hazards."

T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #63 on: November 09, 2003, 01:07:58 PM »
TE
12/1913 - #1 thru #5 in play.

2/1914 - According to Tillinghast 11 holes in play, last 3 holes being cleared.

4/1914 - Remaining 6 holes being cleared.

6/1914 - The remaining six holes ready for fall seeding.

12/1914 - The 11 holes were formally opened in November.

1915, 1916 and 1917 seem to be years in which agronomic problems consumed Crump and PVGC.

Beale directed Carters ("Seedsmen to H.M. the King") golf course construction operation. He built St.Georges Hill for Colt in 1912.

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #64 on: November 09, 2003, 01:28:36 PM »
"6/1914 - The remaining six holes ready for fall seeding."

Tom MacWood;

When you say that, what 'remaining holes' are you talking about? If you're saying that some (six) remaining holes that would make up the 18 holes course were ready for seeding in June of 1914 you wouldn't be remotely close. The remaining holes that completed the full 18 at PVGC (#12-15) did not come into play for another six years so they probably weren't ready of seeding for a good five and some years later, perhaps in the late summer to early fall of 1919, perhaps even into the spring of 1920. They weren't even constructed until the 1919, pehaps even 1920 period.


TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #65 on: November 09, 2003, 01:40:20 PM »
Tom MacW:

When you say the "last three holes being cleared" 2/1914 and then "the remaining six holes being cleared" 4/1914, I'd like to know what or which holes you're referring to.

There's something you should know about hole clearing at PVGC. Crump did a ton of it and often he did it to experiment with a potential hole or routing or piece thereof that was never used or routed the way he was experimented with it. The way to tell about those old "clearing lines" is to basically follow the written timelines that were reported by others about what he was doing or even thinking about and then comparing those timeline reports to some of the earliest aerials of PVGC. On those old early aerials there're a bunch of "clearing lines" that show up and don't seem to make much sense until you realize what Crump was experimenting with (he and Govan were inverterate "shot testers")!

Of course, all those old "clearing lines" for hole ideas and potential holes that weren't used that showed on the old aerials are gone now--back into trees!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2003, 01:42:17 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #66 on: November 09, 2003, 02:00:07 PM »
TE
Tillinghast wrote in April 1914: "In previous estimate of the new course at PV, I had considered the first dozen holes, but as the ground has been cleared and last six holes developed, I must confess that they are indeed remarkable."

Tillie worte in June 1914:"PV is coming on famously. the few holes which were to be cleared will quite ready for the fall seeding and since they have been opened up they appear to even better that the constructors had ever dared to hope."

That would be the entire 18.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2003, 02:02:52 PM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #67 on: November 09, 2003, 02:10:08 PM »
When you say the "last three holes being cleared" 2/1914
Tillinghast doesn't specify...since it is proceeded by "PV now has eleven holes opened for play" I would assume he means 16, 17 and 18.

and "the remaining six holes being cleared" 4/1914
Tillinghast doesn't specify.


How do we know Crump did a lot of clearing to experiment with a potential hole or routing or piece thereof that was never used or routed the way he was experimented with it? I'm aware the 13th hole being changed during clearing of the 12th green...are there reports of other similar examples?  
« Last Edit: November 09, 2003, 02:12:42 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #68 on: November 09, 2003, 02:45:20 PM »
"How do we know Crump did a lot of clearing to experiment with a potential hole or routing or piece thereof that was never used or routed the way he was experimented with it? I'm aware the 13th hole being changed during clearing of the 12th green...are there reports of other similar examples?"

Tom MacW;

There are a ton of other examples if you look at everything available with a purpose. The purpose, of course is that Crump (and Govan) were known "shot testers". That was Crump's primary method of designing which wasn't that unusual in that day and age.

There're all kinds of hole possibilities and parts of holes that he cleared to likely test. Way out past present #6 green would likely be one--past #12 green likely another, way to the right of #13 another. To the left of #15 pond another. And all around the intersection of left #11 green, past #15 green, to the left of present #12 tee, around present #16 tee etc, etc.

Tom--you'd save me a lot of time here if you'd just buy a copy of Finegan's book and read it! For the rest I have a bunch of research materiel I've come upon here and there and everywhere, mostly from down there, aerials, articles whatever.  

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #69 on: November 09, 2003, 02:51:10 PM »
Tom MacW:

Regardless of what Tillie wrote in 1914 the way and the timing of when the holes of PV came into being and into play is in post #60. The thing you need to do is stop relying on some of those early articles and go to the later ones that deal with the truth during the remainder of Crump's time there and around and after Crump died! You have to appreciate that despite what a Tillie, Carr or whomever may have wrote early on, things changed, stopped, got confused, slowed down---whatever!

T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #70 on: November 09, 2003, 02:57:01 PM »
TE
Regarding Crump struggling with the design of 12 thru 15 you said "We know that from numerous, numerous sources and a ton of written material." Do you have any specific examples?

Regarding the experimental clearing (for potential holes and routings) is this conjecture or a fact? Is there written documentation to support this theory?

T_MacWood

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #71 on: November 09, 2003, 03:03:17 PM »
TE
I undersand that the entire project slowed down. I have looked at the later articles...and it appears to me the project was haunted by argronomic difficulties.

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2003, 04:20:17 PM »
Tom MacW:

You really ought to get Finegan's book--you're practically asking me to rewrite most of it here. Don't forget he had those archives at home for a couple of years.

The problems with completing the course and why it slowed down had to do with many reasons not just agromomic. I told you they had basically some more severe agronomy problems in 1919 but the reason things slowed down before completion of those final four holes, in my opinion, had to do with these things and a combination of them;

1. America's involvement in WW1 (19 months). PVGC had a hard time getting manpower and materiel in the war and it was considered unpatriotic to continue anyway! (what was hole #12 had a victory garden on it!).

2. Crump had basically built himself into a box and couldn't decide how exactly to complete a few of those last holes, particularly #12, #14 and #15. There were a number of iterations of #14 including a smashing looking downhill NGLA style "Cape" hole very long par 3 (or short par 4 option!?)!

3. Crump died in January 1918--the club and much of the golfing world was stunned--the money source (him) dried up  and the club and others felt lost without his direction. It took the club a couple of years to figure out how to proceed and complete and that's when the so-called 1921 Advisory Committee entered the picture and sorted things out including with Merion/Wilsons/Flynn and Hugh Alison. Agronomy (course conditions) was just one of many things concerning them and which the 1921 Advisory Committee had to deal with.

wsmorrison

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2003, 05:10:36 PM »
I have a copy of a hand-drawn course map and scorecard of Pine Valley by a Joseph K. Boll of Cleveland, Ohio dated April 25, 1919.  These were included in the extremely valuable Hugh Wilson-Piper/Oakley file at the USGA.  It is positively indicated that holes 1-11 played in today's routing progression and 16-18 were in play but the routing was played differently than today.  Hole 12 was played on the current 16th hole, hole 13 was played on the current 17th, hole 14 was played on the current 18th, hole 15 was played on the current 1st, hole 16 was played on the current 2nd, hole 17 was played on the current 3rd, and hole 18 was played on the current 4th back to the clubhouse.  Clearly holes 12-15 were not completed as of this date.

I have a report by Tillinghast (from the Tillinghast Society website, I think) culled from various Golf Illustrateds covering the work at PVGC from Jan 1913 Sep 1919.  Although numerous reports state that the course would be completed on numerous dates, it clearly shows that as of Sep 1919 the course was not yet completed.  Although again it is mentioned that it will be open for play over the full 18 holes "in the course of 6 weeks or even less."

What I don't understand is exactly what date the entire 18 holes were completed.  My guess is that it was finished at the end of 1919 and the 1921 Advisory Committee completed the project as per the Crump intentions recalled by Dr. Carr and W.P. Smith.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2003, 05:13:04 PM by wsmorrison »

TEPaul

Re:Harry Colt
« Reply #74 on: November 09, 2003, 05:27:51 PM »
Wayne:

Finegan's PVGC history states that the final four holes were not opened for play until the summer of 1920 and even then the bunkering was not finalized.

That's a good point of yours above--I forgot to mention that that although only fourteen holes were in play for about four years the course did play well with them as playing the first four over again brought you right back to the clubhouse. I don't know if that had anything to do with some lack of rush to complete the remaining four holes (12-15) but it certainly made things easier the way it played (1-4 over again and back at the clubhouse).

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