[SL_Solow]

I have a copy of the Colt bio by Hawtree, signed and numbered no less.  It was printed in very limited editions.  It contains a lot of correspondence between Colt, Alison, and Morrison.  Not much re Pine Valley.  Suprisingly little insight on design although a lot of help on timelines and work style.  Interesting notes on use of plasticene scale models for greens.  I will try to pull it off the shelf and find sections relating to this discussion.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom Paul writes:

"But this much I do know now with complete assurance--if anyone tries to say that Harry Colt was THE architect of PVGC they'd be very very wrong!"

Paul Turner writes:

"But this much I do know now with complete assurance--if anyone tries to say that George Crump was THE architect of PVGC they'd be very very wrong!"  

(As the club likes to hoodwink us.)


Tom, yes I should have added a smiley.  But I thought it was pretty strange that you were thinking that Alison was possibly, as, or even more accomplished than Colt, simply from the PV archive info!

[Paul_Turner]

Interesting about the Colt legacy book.  I knew it was in the pipeline.  A coffee table photo book!  That doesn't sound like the definitive bio.

[Paul_Turner]

One further amusing fact about Colt and Co.

Lossiemouth (Moray) in Scotland contacted Colt,Alison,Mackenzie for some redesign work.  Colt suggested that Mackenzie do the work, since the Northern regions were his responsibility, but the club replied that they didn't want Mackenzie as they'd never heard of him!  So Colt went up north and did the job.

[TEPaul]

"If well done, a book along those lines would be fascinating. It would have as its subject matter not an individual architect but the major turning point in the history of gca."

Bob:

Personally, I certainly would agree with that! That so-called "Heathland architecture" of those architects named definitely was, in my mind, a major turning point in the evolution of gca!

Another very interesting facet and time to me was in America just following the meat of the "Heathland architecture" in England and not only the influence it had on certain early American products but also and even more interesting to me why other well known American architects did NOT pick up more on some of it's most important inflluences. Of course I'm talking primarily about the whole concept of increased "naturalism" in architecture is so many ways. That to me was probably the major contribution and influence of "Heathland architecture" and those named architects who were most central to it!

[George Pazin]

While a new bio of Colt would be worth having, I also think a book on the first translations (or reinterpretations?) of links design features to inland courses would be even more valuable. The book would focus on all three of Colt, Willie Park, Jr. and Herbert Fowler.

If well done, a book along those lines would be fascinating. It would have as its subject matter not an individual architect but the major turning point in the history of gca.

Question:

Did Colt, Park and Fowler believe they were part of a movement? Did the three of them talk, share ideas? A la the loosely organized Philadelphia School?

Bob -

You might want to look at Tom MacWood's series on The Arts and Crafts Movement posted in the In My Opinion section. Lots of good stuff on Park & Fowler, as well as copious information on the transistion between architectural eras.

[T_MacWood]

Bob
I doubt they considered themselves part of an organized movement, but I also doubt there was anything like that in Philadelphia. I do think those early Heathland architects were keenly aware that they were doing things much differently than their predecessors and they shared a common interest in the finer points of this new art. They enjoyed discussing, theorizing and debating those finer points (in print at least), which resulted in improved results IMO. But on the other hand you also have to take into account they were competitors, although my take is they were friendly competitors (at least early on). And there was quite a bit of collaboration. If there was any bad blood it was between the amateur architects and the professionals (perhaps with the exception of Park who seemed to be friendly with everyone).

[Paul_Turner]

I believe the "Colt Legacy" book will be in the same vein as the "Lengendary Clubs..." book.  It will concentrate lavishly on a few clubs.

I hope it will be accurate.  I fear there will be mistakes because they haven't researched it thoroughly enough (the profile on the website about Sunningdale New is wrong/incomplete).

[T_MacWood]

If the short description of the book is any indications, it appears they have taken liberties with MacKenize's relationship. Stating Colt sent him down to Australia and then on to California (they had parted ways a few years prior). I wouldn't be surprised to see Royal Melbourne, Cypress Point and ANGC profiled in the book--it certainly would make for more nice pictures, but not exactly accurate.

[Paul_Turner]

If the short description of the book is any indications, it appears they have taken liberties with MacKenize's relationship. Stating Colt sent him down to Australia and then on to California (they had parted ways a few years prior). I wouldn't be surprised to see Royal Melbourne, Cypress Point and ANGC profiled in the book--it certainly would make for more nice pictures, but not exactly accurate.

Tom

Yes, that would be ridiculous.  

I get the feeling they approached Pine Valley but were given the brush off.  I think Nick Edmund is part author and he wrote a recent review of St George's Hill (Links Mag) where he digs a bit at PVGC for not acknowledging Colt's input.  He writes of SGH as a kind of precursor to PV.  And made the interesting observation (which I had noticed too) at how similar the pacing of the two courses is (the par sequence is almost identical).

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

PS

I wonder if they've found a decent photo of Colt, or will we just see the usual ones?  

[TEPaul]

I didn't notice this post of Paul t's until now;

"Tom Paul writes:
"But this much I do know now with complete assurance--if anyone tries to say that Harry Colt was THE architect of PVGC they'd be very very wrong!"

Paul Turner writes:
"But this much I do know now with complete assurance--if anyone tries to say that George Crump was THE architect of PVGC they'd be very very wrong!"  
(As the club likes to hoodwink us.)

Tom, yes I should have added a smiley.  But I thought it was pretty strange that you were thinking that Alison was possibly, as, or even more accomplished than Colt, simply from the PV archive info!

Paul:

My feeling about that is that definitely enough is known already to be able to say with assurance that Harry Colt could never be called "THE architect" of PVGC. To do something like that one would probably have to call "THE Architect" of PVGC, Crump, Colt, Alison, Tillinghast, Maxwell, Flynn, Toomey, Thomas, Wilson, Travis, Fazio and perhaps even C.B. Macdonald!

But if one wants to give one architect the credit he probably deserves above all others in what may have been the greatest apparent collaborative effort in the history of architecture one would have to give that credit only to George Crump. It wouldn't be possible to give that kind of encompassing credit to any of the others, including Harry Colt.

To get a glimpse of why that would be one only has to have an understanding of all that Crump did there for the 5-6 years he worked daily on that project--not even to mention the fact that it took him that amount of time!  Clearly you don't even remotely have that kind of understanding or appreciaton.

One also has to have an understanding of how he worked on it--certainly including the numerous things he did with one such as Jim Govan (his foreman for years) all those years and all the others he chose to collaborate with throughout that extended time. If you seriously think he (or they) were simply following Colt's design or Colt's design instructions throughout all those years you just aren't understanding or appreciating how PVGC came into existence.

You practically insinuated, or did insinuate, a few months ago that Crump spent all that time there basically 'watching the grass grow' as the course was constructed to Colt's design. That's laughable and a real lack of understanding of what was going on there from 1912-1918 and beyond!

You also cannot conclude that the things that might have been arrived upon during Colt's ONLY week or so there were Colt's sole and original ideas. I can't conclude either, at this point, what may have been Crump's sole and original ideas when he spent that week or so with Colt but I may be able to get a lot closer to concluding or proving what were Crump's ideas by simply comparing what was done or conceived of BEFORE Colt got there and also how the project diverged in various ways from anything Colt left behind AFTER he departed for good.

To be honest with you, to hear you say things like 'as the club likes to hoodwink us' is not good. To say something like that means to me you've simply become an overreaching blind advocate for Harry Colt in the design and construction of PVGC. You forget that Colt has always been thought to have routed PVGC, even by the club.

As it turns out it looks as if even that may have been partial at best. It seems fairly accurate to say, at this point, that some or a number of holes as to routing may have been arrived at before Colt got there. If the description of what they were (BEFORE Colt got there) turn out to be the way they were built and the way they now are would that convince you those holes, at least, could not possibly have been Colt routed? If that doesn't convince you I can't imagine what could!

There're other possible explanations for some of the things you point to as clear evidence that the design was Colt's. You point to an article by Father Carr listing Colt's contributions which seem to be large. But are you appreciating the fact that those descriptions by Carr of Colt's contributions are general in nature (except hole #5!!) and most importantly when Carr wrote that arcticle the course was far from completed--there was still much to go and apparently much that changed? And what about #5? Why did Crump and everyone else give Colt so much credit for that hole if everyone is and was trying to minimize his contribution?

The type of facts which I'd say would fit into a "timeline analysis" could surely mean that what followed that article in design and construction could've created a far different situation and description later even from Father Carr. And isn't it interesting that when Crump died a few years later a different description of who was responsible for what surely DID come from Carr compared to that earlier article.

But,for some reason, you only choose to assume that Carr must've been playing favorites toward Crump at that later date. Why do you do that? It seems that you're attempting to do the same thing with others including Tillinghast because of what he wrote about Crump and how much he did do by the time he died. You seem to assume everyone is lying to protect Crump and to denegrate Colt and not give him his due.

And then there's Jim Finegan and his research and recent book. It seems clear to me that Jim may have skewed his analysis of what Colt may have contributed by simply misunderstanding the significance of that surveyor's date on the combined Colt/Crump routing map. And it seems quite certain that no one, including Jim, understood the significance of the difference of the blue and red lines on that routing map, until just recently.

That aside, and again, admitting that that likely skewed Jim's research to a large degree regarding Colt, nevertheless Jim had the entire PVGC archives in his house for a number of years and obviously saw everything in it (Jim is a most meticulous researcher). Jim also has been a decades long very active member of PV and knows the golf course a good deal more than you do. And Jim is apparently the only other one (other than Warner Shelley who lived there and was a member for about sixty years) who has closely analyzed those Colt hole drawings and come to the conclusion that there're some similarities of hole design but as many or more differences.

In my opinion, Jim was in no way playing favorites with Crump at the expense of Colt, he was simply looking carefully at the archives and what is and isn't in them. He did make some assumptions about Colt's contribution which is a natural thing to do given the age-old rumor that he routed the course.

He certainly made an assumption about that mysterious story of Crump paying Colt $10,000. He implied that might have been a story from the failing memory of an older man (Col Baker, Crump's good friend). Jim pointed out that the first evidence of the fact of that payment came about 40 years after PVGC was begun. Apparently no one has ever seen evidence of that payment or had even heard about it until Baker reported it in the early 1950s.

But you've also implied that for me or anyone else to have questioned the legitimacy of that payment was virtually calling Colt a liar. Nothing of the kind! If you have any evidence of that payment from Colt, from PVGC, or from anyone or anywhere else, any evidence at all, then let's see it and I'll be more than willing to consider and accept not only the significance of it but that it surely must have significant meaning (altough obviously not total proof of design contribution).

But simply the time that it took to build PVGC and the commonsense of what that meant points to Crump's all encompassing contribution as THE architect! Almost six years on that project daily and he still was not done! Again, does that sound like someone simply taking his sweet time to construct a course to Colt's plan or watching the grass grow on THE architect--Colt----and his design plan and instructions?

Just compare the great Merion and it's construction in just the previous year to PVGC's inception. Merion began construction in the spring of 1911 and the course was open for play in Sept of 1912 just 17 months later including about six solid months of "grow-in" following completion of design and construction! That would mean at the longest it only took 12 months to actually construct Merion!

And again, PVGC six years into design and construction and still not open for 18 holes of play. A really first rate and experienced researcher such as Geoff Shackelford is the first to admit that's basically a no-brainer as to Crump's overall input into the design and construction of PVGC.

But I doubt you'll ever see or appreciate the significance of what he did and all the time it took him because basically you don't want to see it.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

Why are you having a fit?

We've been over this in detail; take a look in the archives.  

Life's too short.

[Jonathan Davison]

As well as Brian Philips I also rated Colt as the premier architect of all time. One Colt course that people forget is Brancepeth Castle in the north east of England. As a student of golf architecture I can learn as much from this course as any I have ever played. Whether Brancepeth will ever be regarded as top golf course I really do not know? But for myself it highlights Colt as a master architect.

[T_MacWood]

TE
Thats one hell of a long post.

I haven't read Finegan's PVGC book...is he looking for a canceled check written to Colt? If true, it seems to me he is seeking an extraordinary level of proof or should say, it seems Finegan is approaching the subject with extraordinary amount of skepticism toward Colt's involvement. From what I have seen and read, there is plenty of evidence--from that period and later on--that Colt was engaged by the club. Including an existing plan Colt produced. It makes me wonder what the hell he was thinking.

[TEPaul]

"Tom
Why are you having a fit?
We've been over this in detail; take a look in the archives."

Paul;

Yeah, we have but when you say things in this thread like Colt could even remotely be considered THE architect of PV or that you can assure us that Crump never could be considered that there just may be a need to go over it again. But only just maybe. But when you insinuate that PV or even Jim Finegan is trying to hookwink anyone about Colt just to glorfy Crump that's where I draw the line and feel the need to respond again even with a super long post.

Tom MacW says:  

"I haven't read Finegan's PVGC book...is he looking for a canceled check written to Colt? If true, it seems to me he is seeking an extraordinary level of proof or should say, it seems Finegan is approaching the subject with extraordinary amount of skepticism toward Colt's involvement. From what I have seen and read, there is plenty of evidence--from that period and later on--that Colt was engaged by the club. Including an existing plan Colt produced. It makes me wonder what the hell he was thinking."

Oh, I see, it seems to you Finegan is approaching the subject of Colt at PV with a great deal of skepticism does it? Well, I'll tell you Tom--that's complete bullshit!

This whole denigration of PVGC and those associated with it both back then in the beginning and now in what's claimed to be an attempt to glorify Crump and discount Colt is some campaign that the two new Colt advocates Turner and MacWood are on--nothing more.

For many years a rumor has floated around that Colt routed that golf course. The only two that I know of that ever really looked at what Colt left there with a real analytical purpose were Warner Shelley, Jim Finegan and perhaps John Arthur Brown--all of whom wrote books on the course and club. Colt left a hole by hole booklet there that they've all looked at carefully. The design of those holes has apparently never been that close to the way the course was built and turned out according to them. (These three men--Brown, Shelley and Finegan have a ton of time and knowledge down there. Brown ran the place for 56 years. Shelley belonged to it for about 60 years and lived there and Jim Finegan has been an active member there for decades).

To me that means something--logically it means that in the ensuing years after Colt left in 1913 Crump and all his collaborators simply didn't bother to stick to what Colt left in that booklet in 1913. But to the two of you it seems to mean that Crump did stick to that booklet and that everyone has been trying to deny it ever since to glorify Crump and minimize Colt.

That to me is both total bullshit and completely blind advocacy of Harry Colt on your part. Neither of you seem to have much understanding of what followed at PV during those five ensuing years following Colt's departure and during which Crump both lived and worked daily on that course.

But that was just the hole by hole booklet. The routing map, the second one, that hangs in the clubhouse apparently no one EVER really looked at that with an analytical purpose until just recently. Frankly, looking at it and understanding the meaning and the timing meaning of what's on it isn't very easy to do. Plus no one had ever understood the meaning of the various blue and red lines on it, until within the last year!

Mr Finegan obviously made a simple but very meaningful research error when he looked at that routing map and simply assumed that the date on it meant the date Crump completed that routing because that date just happened to precede the date that Colt arrived there for a week in the one and only time he was ever at PV.

That simple assumption on Jim Finegan's part obviously sent his assumptions and eventual conclusions on Colt's contribution, even in routing, down an entirely wrong road but he certainly didn't do that to minimize Colt and glorify Crump no matter what you two say. He did it because he made a simple but meaningful error in research and that's what can happen to assumptions and conclusions when a researcher makes that kind of inintentional error!  

But the routing map has been looked at an analyzed now as carefully as can be without the aid of supporting material within the archives. But there're other things outside the archives that support assumptions---one of the best being some detailed impressions of Tillinghast's on what had been done before Colt arrived.

That's just a fact and if you want to overlook that too or claim that Tillinghast was also trying to discount Colt and glorify Crump then be my guest.

But there's another routing map that may be earlier--perhaps before Colt arrived and if I can prove that it will have a good deal of meaning in uncovering exactly what did happen at that time Colt was there or before it. That could uncover a good deal of exactly what Colt did do and what Crump later did on his own.

That's all I'm saying and all I'm looking to do--to uncover exactly what did happen down there, when and by whom. Paul Turner does not know that yet and either do I and you certainly couldn't possibly.

The $10,000 payment to Colt was something that no one had ever heard of before until Col Baker reported it 40 years later. Of course Mr Finegan isn't searching all over the country-side to find Crump's cancelled check because obviously it isn't in PVGC's extensive archives all of which Mr Finegan took home and analyzed carefully for a few years. But if he, or anyone else, did happen to run across it surely they'd all admit it would have a good deal of added meaning regarding Colt.

But you two take the mention of that $10,000 payment as an absolute fact although all it is is the recollection of probably an 80 year old man in the 1950s of something his friend Crump might have told back in him back in 1913, forty years before. And you turn it into an absolute fact, or worse yet a denigration of Colt only because someone would think to question the legitimacy of it. The fact that ANYONE would think to or consider paying someone, even Colt, $10,000 for a week of advice in that day and age when Merion had been entirely built the year before for just four and a half times that amount would make anyone familiar with that time and that kind of research think twice!

I hardly ever get even concerned much less angry on this site but this does make me angry. I don't know exactly what went on down there in detail and certainly either does Paul Turner, who as far as I know has only been there once or twice, and there's no way on earth you could, particularly if you've never seen PV or read Finegan's book or most of the other material. I gave Paul a certain amount of this material but that does not possibly paint the entire picture, in my opinion.

But again the thing that you two are really missing is what all went on down there in those ensuing years following Colt's early departure.

So until that becomes available and clearer stop this campaign of accusing those there now and those that were there when Crump was alive and working there of trying to glorify him and also trying to minimize Harry Colt. The truth about the design, construction and eventual completion of PVGC will come out and when that happens Colt will get the credit for just what he deserves and so will George Crump.

[Paul_Turner]

To get a glimpse of why that would be one only has to have an understanding of all that Crump did there for the 5-6 years he worked daily on that project--not even to mention the fact that it took him that amount of time!  Clearly you don't even remotely have that kind of understanding or appreciaton.

Don't tell me what kind of understanding I do or don't have!  I don't believe that Crump worked every day for 5-6 years on the course.  You said as much in another thread... the War and other factors.  I believe the vast majority of the course was completed much faster than 5+years.

You practically insinuated, or did insinuate, a few months ago that Crump spent all that time there basically 'watching the grass grow' as the course was constructed to Colt's design. That's laughable and a real lack of understanding of what was going on there from 1912-1918 and beyond!

Yeah insinuate.  What a bloody joke.   I simply stated they had problems growing grass.  Trying to work out why Crump couldn't get 18 holes in play.  And you still think they were working continuously on the course for 5-6 years?  What were they doing, digging bunkers with tea spoons?

To be honest with you, to hear you say things like 'as the club likes to hoodwink us' is not good. To say something like that means to me you've simply become an overreaching blind advocate for Harry Colt in the design and construction of PVGC. You forget that Colt has always been thought to have routed PVGC, even by the club.

Stop deluding yourself.  The club doesn't want anyone but Crump to have design credit.  It has been that way for a long time.  Colt has not been given credit for routing the course by PVGC, that is nonsense, take a look at the club histories.

As it turns out it looks as if even that may have been partial at best. It seems fairly accurate to say, at this point, that some or a number of holes as to routing may have been arrived at before Colt got there. If the description of what they were (BEFORE Colt got there) turn out to be the way they were built and the way they now are would that convince you those holes, at least, could not possibly have been Colt routed? If that doesn't convince you I can't imagine what could!

What ARE you going on about here?  Since reading the Tillie articles, I've always maintained that the first 4 holes were probably routed before Colt arrived.  

There're other possible explanations for some of the things you point to as clear evidence that the design was Colt's. You point to an article by Father Carr listing Colt's contributions which seem to be large. But are you appreciating the fact that those descriptions by Carr of Colt's contributions are general in nature (except hole #5!!) and most importantly when Carr wrote that arcticle the course was far from completed--there was still much to go and apparently much that changed? And what about #5? Why did Crump and everyone else give Colt so much credit for that hole if everyone is and was trying to minimize his contribution?

Why do you keep repeating that Crump credited Colt with the 5th.  This is a load of old bollocks as far as I can tell.  Crump was happy giving the entire credit to Colt...the Carr report.  The Carr report is detailed and nobody is going to have problems identifying the current holes in the photos of holes 3,5,10.

In my opinion, Jim was in no way playing favorites with Crump at the expense of Colt, he was simply looking carefully at the archives and what is and isn't in them. He did make some assumptions about Colt's contribution which is a natural thing to do given the age-old rumor that he routed the course.

Finnegan underplays Alison's contribution too.  

He certainly made an assumption about that mysterious story of Crump paying Colt $10,000. He implied that might have been a story from the failing memory of an older man (Col Baker, Crump's good friend). Jim pointed out that the first evidence of the fact of that payment came about 40 years after PVGC was begun. Apparently no one has ever seen evidence of that payment or had even heard about it until Baker reported it in the early 1950s.

But you've also implied that for me or anyone else to have questioned the legitimacy of that payment was virtually calling Colt a liar. Nothing of the kind! If you have any evidence of that payment from Colt, from PVGC, or from anyone or anywhere else, any evidence at all, then let's see it and I'll be more than willing to consider and accept not only the significance of it but that it surely must have significant meaning (altough obviously not total proof of design contribution).

What are you on about here?   Where do you get this liar stiff from? When it suited your argument, you suggested that the $10K was paid to Colt as some kind of publicity/promotion stunt by Crump.  But if Tom Macwood or I suggest he was paid for a job well done, then you question its legitimacy!

A really first rate and experienced researcher such as Geoff Shackelford is the first to admit that's basically a no-brainer as to Crump's overall input into the design and construction of PVGC.

That's pretty weak.  Geoff was under the impression that Finnegan's assumption was correct.  And both you and I have much more info now.

[Paul_Turner]

PS

Regarding the Colt booklet.  Only two people I know of have commented on it.  Tom Doak and Jim Finnegan. Tom's opinion was that drawings weren't far off.  The one Colt hole drawing many of us have seen-the 17th shown in Finnegan's book-isn't that far off, in my opinion.   Finnegan however, dismisses it and writes that it's "very different from the hole Crump built"; I don't agree with his assesment.

[TEPaul]

Paul;

Very surprising post. I'm very disappointed in the way you're looking at PVGC. To me what you're doing is a truly unsupportable bunch of assumptions and conclusions on your part.

[T_MacWood]

TE
Wow! That was a mouthful. All that because I questioned why Finegan would be so focused on finding a cancelled $10,000 check.

Isn't there a ton of evidence that the club engaged Colt without having to produce the check? It seems to me, Finegan is trying to say....'I have my doubts about the check...the only person who mentioned the check was Baker....Baker was quite old and his memory wasn't the best...and if there is no check, the whole Colt connection is doubtful.' Correct me if I'm misreading Finegan's logic.

That's bizarre logic IMO. It ignores written comments from Tillinghast, Travers, Dr. Carr, Darwin, Col. Baker and Alison that Colt was engaged by the club--some contemporaneous, others a few years after the fact. It also ignores the detailed hole plans Colt produced--which are in the possession of the club (no matter one's opinion of their similarity to the course). And it ignores the Colt's partner was on site after WWI when PVGC was attempting to finish the course and polish its rough edges.

I suppose all those gentlemen could be mistaken. And prehaps Colt submitted an unsolicited plan for free. And perhaps it was simply coincidence that Alison was there to write a detailed report.

By the way I'm not a Colt or Crump advocate...I haven't stated one way or the other my view of what happened...because at this point I'm not certain what happened. We should all be truth advocates and the focus on the check seems odd to me.

[TEPaul]

Paul Turner said:

"Yeah insinuate.  What a bloody joke.  I simply stated they had problems growing grass.  Trying to work out why Crump couldn't get 18 holes in play.  And you still think they were working continuously on the course for 5-6 years?  What were they doing, digging bunkers with tea spoons?"

What a truly stupid thing to say. You were trying to work out why Crump couldn't get 18 hole in play? Do you have any of the history books on that golf course? Do you have Finegan's? If so read the thing again. It's all right there in perfectly understandable text and documented chronological order. Or perhaps you think PVGC and every one of the authors who did its history are lying or distorting or skewing the facts of those five 5-6 years Crump was alive. You want to know about the agronomic problems they had--why they had a hard time for a few years growing grass? Well, you should talk to me or Wayne about that because most all of it is in Hugh Wilson's letters!


Not only did Crump spend five years working on the course until the day he died it still wasn't done. Crump not only spent five solid years at PVGC from 1913 until 1918, he lived at PVGC during that time and that's the only place he lived. You probably didn't know that though.

And furthermore read what Finegan said about Colt and notice also that Finegan mentioned and quoted Carr's article about Colt. He even quoted what many others had to say about Colt and what he did there--Hunter, Thomas, Tillinghast etc. All those people were there and all those people were mentioned and quoted by Finegan! So why are you having such a difficult time accepting what they said? Don't bother  answering that because it's completely obvious why you're having such a hard time accepting it!

Paul Turner said;

"Stop deluding yourself.  The club doesn't want anyone but Crump to have design credit.  It has been that way for a long time.  Colt has not been given credit for routing the course by PVGC, that is nonsense, take a look at the club histories."

I just can't imagine what the problem is with you on this but there's a perfectly logical explanation why the so-called rumor that Colt may have routed the golf has floated around for decades but nobody seemed to be certain about it. Finegan more than addresses that so-called rumor! Finegan quotes all kinds of sources, contemporaneous newspaper articles about what Colt may have done and a number of others who were there. He even quotes Colt himself! He mentions also that it's a shame more of record wasnt left about Crump and Colt's time there and that unfortunately Crump didn't keep those kinds of records or diaries. And then Finegan concludes that Colt could not have routed the course but we should know at this point why Finegan concluded that, right? You do know why he concluded that don't you?

Until this year nobody ever thought Colt did a routing plan of the golf course. Do you know why that is? I'm not even going to tell you why they thought Colt never did a routing plan--let's see if you can figure that out first before we go on!  And if you can't figure that out in detail there really is no point in going on about this and there's much less of a point about you going on bashing PVGC for what you think is glorifying Crump and denigrating Colt.

 

[Paul_Turner]

What a truly stupid thing to say. You were trying to work out why Crump couldn't get 18 hole in play? Do you have any of the history books on that golf course? Do you have Finegan's? If so read the thing again. It's all right there in perfectly understandable text and documented chronological order. Or perhaps you think PVGC and every one of the authors who did its history are lying or distorting or skewing the facts of those five 5-6 years Crump was alive. You want to know about the agronomic problems they had--why they had a hard time for a few years growing grass? Well, you should talk to me or Wayne about that because most all of it is in Hugh Wilson's letters!


Not only did Crump spend five years working on the course until the day he died it still wasn't done. Crump not only spent five solid years at PVGC from 1913 until 1918, he lived at PVGC during that time and that's the only place he lived. You probably didn't know that though.

And furthermore read what Finegan said about Colt and notice also that Finegan mentioned and quoted Carr's article about Colt. He even quoted what many others had to say about Colt and what he did there--Hunter, Thomas, Tillinghast etc. All those people were there and all those people were mentioned and quoted by Finegan! So why are you having such a difficult time accepting what they said? Don't bother  answering that because it's completely obvious why you're having such a hard time accepting it!

Bollocks!  Nobody goes into detail as to what Crump was up to during those 5-6 years.  The photo evidence certainly suggests that the course was, in the bulk, fully designed well inside 5-6 years.  I simply take issue with your insistance that Crump was constantly designing and evolving the course during this period.  If he did, it would bare little resemblance to Colt's plan, whereas, in fact, it doesn't deviate sustantially.

Perhaps Crump did go slowly crazy in the woods and killed himself?

You tell me what Crump did over the 5 years.  

Finnegan doesn't quote Carr's article. If he did then he would have noticed that Carr credits Colt (unless he ignored it).  Finnegan quotes Tillighast's excerpt from Carr's report.

Where have I denied what Hunter, Thomas or Tillinghast write.  You are putting words in my mouth.  Stop it!

I just can't imagine what the problem is with you on this but there's a perfectly logical explanation why the so-called rumor that Colt may have routed the golf has floated around for decades but nobody seemed to be certain about it. Finegan more than addresses that so-called rumor! Finegan quotes all kinds of sources, contemporaneous newspaper articles about what Colt may have done and a number of others who were there. He even quotes Colt himself! He mentions also that it's a shame more of record wasnt left about Crump and Colt's time there and that unfortunately Crump didn't keep those kinds of records or diaries. And then Finegan concludes that Colt could not have routed the course but we should know at this point why Finegan concluded that, right? You do know why he concluded that don't you?

Until this year nobody ever thought Colt did a routing plan of the golf course. Do you know why that is? I'm not even going to tell you why they thought Colt never did a routing plan--let's see if you can figure that out first before we go on!  And if you can't figure that out in detail there really is no point in going on about this and there's much less of a point about you going on bashing PVGC for what you think is glorifying Crump and denigrating Colt.

What is this patronising rubbish?  You have proof that Colt didn't route the bulk of the course?  Many knew that Colt routed the bulk of the course.  It was just the club that refused to acknowledge it!


 

[Jerome_Travers]

1925 "The 5th Estate"

"Crump's vision began assuming concrete form when he engaged the famous English architect, Colt, to come to this country, to plan a course of surpassing merit and extraordinary beauty.  Colt deeply impressed with the scenic splendour, pitched his tent in the woods and camped there for a week or more. He emerged from his hibernation enthralled.  The same potential qualities for a wonderful links which Crump had visioned came even more magnified under the critical analysis of the expert.  He reported that it would be possible to mold one of the finest courses in the world from the ground so treasured in the memories of George Crump.

"Good. I thought so.  I see it all as you do-the sand, the trees, the turf and the rolling ground.  Good!  Lets make it what you say-one of the best courses in the world."  Crump was jubilant.  Colt's verdict was music to his ears; he told me of the happiness it brought him.

From Colt's blue-printed diagram was reared this magnificent golf course..."

[TEPaul]

From Paul Turner:

"What is this patronising rubbish?  You have proof that Colt didn't route the bulk of the course?  Many knew that Colt routed the bulk of the course.  It was just the club that refused to acknowledge it!"

Paul Turner, that is total bullshit and you have to know that! You show me where 'many knew that Colt routed the bulk of the course'. Just show that to me! Tell me just who those 'many' were exactly.

Do I have proof that Colt didn't route the bulk of the course? Not really, but I think I have extremely good evidence that Crump routed and/or designed at least nine of the holes. Five holes, #1-#4 and #18 (as they are now) before Colt ever got to PV. That, it appears to me, comes irrefutably from Tillinghast's written description of those routed holes before Colt arrived!

As for the rest, what makes you think you have proof that Colt routed them? We certainly know that holes 12-15 weren't much at all to do with Colt. Those holes came into form years after Colt left PV.

They may go in vaguely the same direction as something Colt may have come up with on that routing in the clubhouse but that's simply because they were holes that were were all that was left of the 18 on a corner of the property that had to go somehow in approximately the directions they do now. Those holes couldn't be remotely considered Colt-as they were in limbo both in final routing and certainly in design for approximately two years as to how they would work in both routing and design and the well known stories in the history books and everything else goes into detail about how Crump struggled with those holes and how they finally became resolved and at times by whom. At that point Colt was about four years out of PVGC!! Why was Crump struggling with those holes---because he couldn't read Colt's plans? And even Colt's routing lines on those holes aren't remotely similar in design--just look at his supposed routing lines.

That right there is nine holes that to me clearly aren't Colt. What about the rest? Do you have proof that Colt routed those? What is that proof? First, how do you know that Crump didn't route them himself? You don't, you're simply assuming. I don't know about those remaining nine holes either but each of them should be considered in light of the available evidence that's left at this point. Look at #7. Does that look like Colt? His green is 130 yds short of the actual green and about 20 yards from the water tower! And what would that do to #8?

I think #9 could plausibly be solely Colt. And perhaps #10 and #11. The rest, #16 & #17, there's just no proof or much evidence either way. And you call that the 'bulk of the routing'?

A lot of what I'm saying isn't much different from the explanations of what went on down there with Colt and Crump from some architects who were there then including Thomas, Hunter and Tillinghast. Are you now trying to claim  they too are part of 'the club' who's trying to hoodwink everyone 'refusing to acknowledge' something and trying to minimize Colt? You must be! Just more bullshit!

And furthermore, quit evading a very legitimate question. Why did the club and everyone else not realize that Colt may  have left anything at all in the way of a routing plan at PVGC? If you can't respond to that and give me a legitmate answer with something other than another question of 'What's this patronizing rubbish?' then it certainly shows me you aren't understanding what went on there at all well.

If you're claiming you can prove what Colt routed there's nothing at all difficult or complicated about answering a simple question like why no one realized that Colt may have left anything resembling a routing plan at Pine Valley.

As for those hole drawings of Colt's what are you depending on to prove that the holes of PVGC are similar to those hole drawings since you've never seen them? Obviously, all you're depending on is something Tom Doak may have said on Golfclubatlas or elsewhere.

Did Tom Doak analyze those hole drawings as three authors of PVGC history books--Brown, Shelley and Finegan probably did? You have no idea, do you? How well does Tom Doak even know the golf course? Could he possibly know it as well as a man who ran the place for 56 years, one who belonged to it for over 60 years and lived there, and another who's been a member for decades?

You've got a lot to learn about what went on down there Paul, and so do I. But I think first you should learn to evaluate better what you have. Don't jump to conclusions when you don't have solid evidence.

As for Geoff Shackelford's opinion of PV--he has the same material you have because I gave it to him. Actually he has more than you do on his own.

The $10,000 payment to Colt.  I never said Crump paid that to Colt as a publicity stunt although I once did say that kind of publicity may have appealed to Crump in 1913 as at that point he was a virtual unknown. But I never said I actually believed he paid him that kind of money. I think that payment, at least that amount was probably some mistaken memory of an old man. No architect I'm aware of was paid that kind of money in that day and age--not even close--and for a week on site never to return? Not even close! That kind of money was about 1/4 of what it cost to build the entire golf course at Merion the year before. But you don't want to hear that kind of fact do you?

Again, just what Colt and Crump did there will become better known one of these days but the things you're saying about Colt and Crump and those who are there now and were there back then when it was getting built is not necessary and it's way off base.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood said:

"Isn't there a ton of evidence that the club engaged Colt without having to produce the check? It seems to me, Finegan is trying to say....'I have my doubts about the check...the only person who mentioned the check was Baker....Baker was quite old and his memory wasn't the best...and if there is no check, the whole Colt connection is doubtful.' Correct me if I'm misreading Finegan's logic.

That's bizarre logic IMO. It ignores written comments from Tillinghast, Travers, Dr. Carr, Darwin, Col. Baker and Alison that Colt was engaged by the club--some contemporaneous, others a few years after the fact. It also ignores the detailed hole plans Colt produced--which are in the possession of the club (no matter one's opinion of their similarity to the course). And it ignores the Colt's partner was on site after WWI when PVGC was attempting to finish the course and polish its rough edges."

Tom MacW:

There is a ton of evidence that Crump had Colt at PVGC for a week or two in May 1913 and the club later retained Alison. Alison's work is clear and all the material is there to exactly document what Alison did.

With Colt it's not so easy to do as it was approximately eight years earlier and the only one responsible for the golf course was Crump--he owned the whole place don't forget--he found it, bought it himself and put a good deal of his own money into the construction of it.

Finegan does not in any way question that Crump had Colt there for a solid week or perhaps two in May of 1913--the club records show that. Finegan simply couldn't figure out exactly what Colt may have done there. There were no records left of how Crump and Colt collaborated during that time. And Finegan can't determine how or why Crump got Colt there--as far as I know, no one really knows that. They suspect he came down from Canada. But obviously Crump called for Colt.

Finegan knew Colt left the hole by hole drawing booklet and Finegan scrutinized that in his latest history book research. Finegan said the holes in the booklet had some similarities to the way the course was built but many differences. That's precisely what he said about the hole by hole booklet.

Now Paul Turner disagrees with him on that and says that the holes are far more similar to the booklet than Finegan is saying. I don't know what Paul is basing that on since he's only seen one hole (#17) out of that booklet. Apparently he's basing it on something Tom Doak may have said on here. Paul Turner is also saying this is all evidence that Finegan, who's been there for decades, is trying to glorify Crump and minimize Colt. I suppose he's insinuating the same about Shelley who also analyzed the Colt hole booklet. Perhaps he's insinuating the same about Brown.

The routing map situation is another matter entirely and I'm waiting for Paul Turner to tell me why he thinks no one apparently understood that Colt left anything there in the way of a routing. Perhaps he thinks 'many' knew Colt left a routng there. I've asked him why he thinks that and to tell me what he's basing that on.

As for that $10,000 payment--Finegan in no way suggests that's evidence of Colt not being there or not doing work there for Crump during that week or two in May 1913. All Finegan is trying to do is figure out exactly what Colt did do. Finegan surmises that $10,000 payment story may be a poor recolletion on the part of an old man as the first word of that payment came 37 years later. Finegan thinks that sounds like a ridiculously exorbitant amount of money to pay someone for a week or two who never returned and so do I and many others. But Finegan never said that proves Colt was not there or didn't do something.

Why don't you just get the book and read it so you can see for yourself?

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