Harry Colt

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

te
i ma intrigued about the $10000payment..more info please.
thank you..michael

[TEPaul]

PaulT and Tom MacWood;

When did either of you first become aware of what you think was or is some effort on the part of PVGC to mininmize or suppress the significance of Colt's part in PVGC?

[TEPaul]

Michael W-P:

It seems the $10,000 payment to Colt from Crump came to light about 40 years after the fact when Col Baker, the man who went to Europe with Crump when he went over there in 1910-11 to study architecture for a few month, mentioned it in a 2-3 page account written in the early 1950s that's part of the PVGC archives and now part of Jim Finegan's recent PVGC history book.

In his history book Jim Finegan mentioned that in his opinion the report of that large a payment by such an elderly man so long after the fact might have been the result a faulty memory on Col Baker's part. Finegan conjectured that a payment that large in that day (1913) to an architect for work of a week, perhaps two, seemed quite unreasonable.

Of course that assumption on Finegan's part sent Paul Turner and Tom MacWood, two real Colt advocates and afficionados into paroxysms of high dudgeon and accusations that Finegan and perhaps me or anyone else who mentioned that possiblity was floating information that was tantamount to calling Colt a liar, followed by their constant refrain on here that PVGC is and perhaps always has been on a dedicated campaign to minimize Colt's contribution to PVGC in attempts to glorify Crump's contribution!

[Paul_Turner]

PaulT and Tom MacWood;

When did either of you first become aware of what you think was or is some effort on the part of PVGC to mininmize or suppress the significance of Colt's part in PVGC?

Tom

Researching about PV and seeing how little mention he and the other architects are given in the club histories.

I remember reading Pam Emery's (sp?) article on PVGC which stated something like..." the easiest way to drive a Pine Valley member wild, was to suggest that Colt designed the course."

I do think Finegan's was an honest mistake.  But he and the other writers do downplay the other architects (which damages Colt the most) and all of them missed or ignored the Simon Carr article.  Why not show all of the Colt hole drawings, like Hamilton does?  

If you go to the club now.  There's zero reference to Colt in the clubhouse.  It's all Crump.  Only Crump on the card...

[TEPaul]

Paul Turner said:

"I remember reading Pam Emery's (sp?) article on PVGC which stated something like..." the easiest way to drive a Pine Valley member wild, was to suggest that Colt designed the course."

Paul:

I'd like to see exactly what Pam Emery said in that article you refer to. Perhaps Pam was referring not to Colt but to the lack of enough mention of how much Merion did for PVGC after Crump died!  

"I do think Finegan's was an honest mistake.  But he and the other writers do downplay the other architects (which damages Colt the most) and all of them missed or ignored the Simon Carr article.  Why not show all of the Colt hole drawings, like Hamilton does?"

Paul:

I can tell you right now that I've been down there for over 20 years now and I've known perhaps a hundred PVGC members. The rumor and the story all the years I've been familiar with PVGC was that Colt routed the whole golf course and that Crump largely designed it in all those years he spent there almost everyday working on the course following the early departure of Colt. What I’m telling you is that I think it’s pretty ironic that that story floated around PVGC that it was Colt who routed that whole golf course but now we can see from much of the research we’ve done that is part of this website that it was not Colt that routed the whole golf course and that according to almost all the contemporaneous reports from that time, particularly including Tillinghast and his PVGC creation chronicles, that Colt probably did not route even half the course! As for the actual specifics of the designs of the holes---only the Colt hole by hole booklet can shed light on that as to what Colt did vs what Crump did particularly afterwards. I just find it interesting that you and Tom MacWood (who’s never even been there) who’ve only seen one hole drawing from Colt are virtually accusing Warner Shelly and Jim Finegan, both of whom were members of PVGC for decades each, and are two of only a handful of people who’ve ever analyzed those Colt hole drawings of virtually lying about what they saw in those Colt hole drawings in some campaign to glorify Crump and minimize Colt!

As for the Simon Carr article and what it says about Colt’s contribution, we’ve been over that on here before. If that golf course was finished in 1914 when Carr wrote that article you’re referring to that article might be an accurate reflection of Colt’s contribution. But that’s not remotely what happened. Following the writing of that article by Carr in 1914 Crump continued to work on that course daily for almost the next four years and obviously he made numerous changes. The record reflects, and interestingly the record is one half Simon Carr’s record that he wrote after Crump died about what Crump did in the ensuing four years and what he intended to do (had he lived). It’s important to focus not on what Carr said in 1914 but what he said in 1918 after Crump died. But perhaps you and Tom MacWood are actually trying to suggest that Simon Carr, a catholic priest, also became part of some campaign to glorify George Crump!  

And for all of us now it’s also important to focus on what happened up until the completion of the course following Crump’s death and until it was basically completed around 1922 from which it has been little changed since.

You guys, for whatever your reasons, simply just don’t seem to want to really admit the factual timeline of PVGC and how it really does reflect on what Colt did and what Crump did. I find it sort of offensive, laughable really, that you two guys seem to be floating a virtual conspiracy theory over what you think is and was the glorification of George Crump! That didn’t happen, in my opinion. Sure Jim Finegan made an honest error on that date on the topo routing map and that could’ve potentially altered this Colt/Crump analysis on the routing big time but we’ve figured that out now and what that error meant.

I think you’re more reasonable about all this than a guy like Tom MacWood is. At least you answer all the questions put to you and don’t simply avoid the ones that don’t suit your scenarios. I saw an interview recently with an ex director of the CIA and the FBI. They were talking about the numerous conspiracy theories out there on certain events. Both of them mentioned that it really wasn’t the job of either agency to spent forever DISPPROVING the numerous wacko conspiracy theories that come down the pike. That’s the way I look at discussing some of this stuff with Tom MacWood!  

[Paul_Turner]

The Pam Emery quote was specifically about Colt and PV.

Crump is glorified.  And has been since the tragic and frankly murky circumstances of his death (another PV myth, as it turns out).  Look how Tillie's writing changed when he looks back with nostalgia, 20 years later.  He isn't consistent.

Crump didn't radically change the course after Colt's visit (other than 13 and 14).  Cerainly not in routing terms.  What specifics does Finegan get into here?  And I've never really claimed that Colt would have had all that much input on details such as green contours. Though I do think he would have staked out the general green shapes and discussed general slopes with Crump.

I don't know why you're offended by this.  I think it's obvious that the club doesn't want anyone but Crump getting credit for the course (or at least the official face of the club, doesn't).  Do you think they would freely let me examine the Colt drawings, given that I reckon I know more about his work than anyone?  

[TEPaul]

"The Pam Emery quote was specifically about Colt and PV."

Paul:
Ok! Then that's what she said! I knew Pam Emery but I wonder if Pam went down to PVGC and got to know what those people think as many times as I have?  

"Crump is glorified."  

Yes, he is and deservedly so in the opinion of many back then and today, including my own. And thank the Lord he is---I think that's been an enormous factor in the club keeping their hands off that architecture as much as they have. Most of that is so as not to tamper with the work of George Crump!!

".....And has been since the tragic and frankly murky circumstances of his death (another PV myth, as it turns out)."

Hmmm, that's intersting. Are you saying that Crump was glorified following his untimely death? And if so what are you basing that on? Some think, Crump may have committed suicide but no one has remotely proved that or even come up with a shred of evidence to that effect that I'm aware of other than outright speculation. Do you believe that Elvis and James Dean are still alive and well somewhere Paul?  

"Look how Tillie's writing changed when he looks back with nostalgia, 20 years later.  He isn't consistent."

I don't see any change in Tillie's writing before and after Crump's death other than to be extremely sad and perhaps overly sentimental at the time of that sudden loss of a very close friend he apparently had huge admiration for who suddenly died at 47! That'd certainly be a shock to me too.

You said;

"Crump didn't radically change the course after Colt's visit (other than 13 and 14).  Cerainly not in routing terms."

No, the routing remained the same as it is on that routing map hanging on the wall we've now analyzed so carefully other than a few notable changes such as #7, perhaps 8, #13, #14. Maybe #12 too, since it's certainly known Crump was not happy with that hole for a long time and worked on it very late in the game.

"What specifics does Finegan get into here?"

Nothing other than to say that in his opinion there're more differences than similarities in the actual specifics of the designed holes--not the routing. This probably means bunker rearrangements, application of segegated fairway areas, some changes to greens and some tees and such. There's a fairly good sized list of the things Carr and Smith agreed Crump was going to do too---and some of them were pretty radical like proposed changes on #6, #7, #11 and maybe even #13 mid-fairway bunkering, and also perhaps #15 and #16.

"And I've never really claimed that Colt would have had all that much input on details such as green contours. Though I do think he would have staked out the general green shapes and discussed general slopes with Crump."

We'll just have to see about that! The booklet will tell.

"I don't know why you're offended by this."

Well, I don't think I'd say I'm offended exactly but if you don't know why I say the things I have and I do to you, then you should know. I know Jim Finegan and I knew Warner Shelly too and I have tremendous respect for both of them and particularly for Jim Finegan's ability to research accurately and honestly, to deduce and to write well. I know neither Shelly nor Finegan had the slightest interest in minmizing an architect like Harry Colt and it's offensive to me that you to some extent but particularly Tom MacWood who I really don't think has much of a clue about PVGC thinks they were involved in some campaign to minimiize Colt. Again, I've been there for years, I know those people and I'm just in a much better position to know about that around 1000% better than someone like Tom MacWood!

"I think it's obvious that the club doesn't want anyone but Crump getting credit for the course (or at least the official face of the club, doesn't)."

I do not agree with that at all and frankly, Paul, I'm probably in a lot better position to know that about PVGC than you are. When I spoke to Charlie Raudenbush about some of the specifics of the contributions of Alison for the 1921 Advisory Committee (some of the details Jim Finegan didn't cover) he sure didn't seem to mind and was frankly very interested as he always has been very interested in the architecture of the course and the entire history and evolution of it, no matter who it was.
 
"Do you think they would freely let me examine the Colt drawings, given that I reckon I know more about his work than anyone?"

I don't know but I would suspect they would not. I don't deny that PVGC is private in many ways about the things they do and what they are and sometimes intensely private. That doesn't bother me at all---I think that's their complete perogative and I do know if you love golf and you respect Pine Valley they don't care who the hell you are they're all for you and they want you around. And I surely do know that they do not demand in any way that you blindly glorify Crump and minimize any other, certainly including Harry Colt. I've been down there for years and in the last 7-8 years have been intensely interested in golf architecture and in PVGC too. There're a lot of them down there that know that---they do read GOLFCLUBATLAS.com!

What I'm saying to you is I think I'm even-handed about PVGC and what I've found out about the creation and evolution of it. You and I are just about on the same page that way it seems now. The Colt hole by hole design booklet is another matter---neither one of us has seen that except hole #17. That hole isn't bunkered the way it was with Crump and certainly not the way it turned out with Alison. You may say it is and think it is but it just isn't other than the big carry bunker.

And obviously things of that nature are what both Shelly and Finegan were responding to when they analyzed that booklet probably more carefully than any others to date. So for you to even suggest they're covering something up when you haven't seen it and they have probably isn't going to cut it with PVGC as far as letting you analyze something.

But I know you and you're a great guy---you're a decent, polite, thoughtful guy and a very fine golf architecture analyst. You probably are a bit too over-reaching on Colt advocacy, though, in some area, in my opinion, and I think PVGC is one of them.

But maybe they will let you take a look at the archives and the Colt booklet someday. The good news is you're no Tom MacWood who, in my opinion, seems to have a personal vendetta against Philadelphia architects who he seems to assume have been on some decades long campaign to glorify themselves and that I'm perpetuating that.

I do know that if I had anything to do with PVGC I wouldn't let him step over the railroad tracks into the borough---although he certainly does come up with some wonderful old stuff, I think he's a virtual disaster in architectural deduction and analysis and I told him so today in a rather angry and blunt response to his IM about some crack to do with if Nassau G.C. was in Philly how I could glorify somebody like the president and completely minimize Emmet and Strong.

And lastly, as good as you may be as a golf architecture analyst the thing I feel you really should learn better and Tom MacWood should start to learn totally is something I believe Geoff Shackelford who I feel is the best there is at this stuff would tell us all and that is when a man like Crump spent as much time and effort on that place as he did that he's the one who should get the credit for it because frankly he's the one who really did it and was the editor of it all!

I told Tom MacWood to read GeoffShac's section on PVGC in "The Golden Age of Golf Design"---it's really good and its accurate. And I know Geoff doesn't have anything in for Colt and he wasn't trying to glorify Crump at all---just tell the truth about it after he went there and analyzed the whole place with his aerials, interviews and close scrutiny of the course today and back then.

Did Geoff think it had too many trees when he went there? He sure did!  

[T_MacWood]

TE
Don't hold back...you shouldn't sugar coat your opinion of me!

Any idea why the red and blue plan or the Colt booklet weren't included in Finegan's PV book?

[Paul_Turner]

I hope you are right and they are open to a full detailed analysis.  I think you're the most likely person to get in there.

As for 17.  Yes the bunkers by the green were changed, but the hole is essentially there:  as it is, in the routing plan.  I don't expect the booklet to be much different from the blue lines on the map.  Just more details about cutting ridges...  It's exactly the same deal at Hamilton.

Tom Doak has seen the booklet at PVGC too.  He thought that strategy was apparent.

Crump's death:  I think if you dig a little, you'll find it's common knowledge, that the official line was fiction.  

I believe that Geoff Shackelford was under the impression that Finegan's routing attribution was accurate.  But to his credit, in his GCA interview, Geoff does mention the Carr article.

PS

I am curious to know, in your opinion, what other areas am I overeaching in Colt advocacy, other than PVGC, eh!  Are you sure that isn't the proverbial pot and kettle syndrome

Mostly, I just post bloody pictures!  And not just of HSC's courses, either!

[TEPaul]

"TE
Don't hold back...you shouldn't sugar coat your opinion of me!"

Tom:

You got that right!

"Any idea why the red and blue plan or the Colt booklet weren't included in Finegan's PV book?"

Tom:

Have you ever bothered to read Jim Finegan's PVGC history book? If you have you'll see it's the entire history of Pine Valley golf club and not just the history of its architecture. I know guys like you and me have a million and one questions about architecture but that book was intended to be more than just that. Someone should write a history about just the architecture of PVGC it's such a significant course.

So, why didn't he include that red and blue line topo map? Probably for the simple reason it's not easy to photograph in it's frame behind glass and in its entirety (I've tried it and had to do it in sections so one can make out enough about it) and I really doubt PVGC would want even Jim Finegan for their history book to risk trying to take that incredibly fragile and important piece of paper out of its frame and risk damaging it!

Why didn't he photograph all Colt's hole drawings? Probably for the first part of the reason I gave above---his book was more than an architectural history and obviously Jim thought he made his point about Colt which, again, was not to denigrate or minimize him in an attempt to glorify Crump, despite what you think about that and obviously always will. Matter of fact, I think I'll call him tonight and speak to him about that.

There were some other things he missed about the evolution of the architecture that he regretted. When Shackelford discovered the old lost alternate fairway on #17 and told me about it (Geoff claims Crenshaw co-incidentally happened to notice it in person and told him about it almost simultaneously) I told Jim Finegan about it and he said;

"Now you tell me, my book has gone to print!"

[T_MacWood]

I have read the book and the map (as well as the Colt booklet) is one of the areas he delves into in his attempt to minimize Colt's role. At least he didn't ignore Colt like the previous histories did....he spent a good page or three trying to show why it was proper he be ignored.

[TEPaul]

"I have read the book and the map (as well as the Colt booklet) is one of the areas he delves into in his attempt to minimize Colt's role."

Tom MacWood:

Jim Finegan in his PVGC history book made no attempt to minimize Colt's roll. What he did was simply make an error on the meaning of the date on that topo and the significance of it. As far as the significance of the blue and red lines regarding Colt and Crump Jim Finegan wasn't aware of that when he wrote his book---no one was! Either was Warner Shelly. If you don't understand the ramifications of this honest error on Jim Finegan's part or the significance of his misunderstanding the topo date and not knowing about the significance of the blue and red lines check it out with Paul if you don't believe me!

[TEPaul]

Paul Turner said, perhaps in an attempt to establish his point that PVGC unrealistically glorifies George Crump at the expense of other architects who were involved in conceiving or designing the architecture of PVGC.

“Crump is glorified.  And has been since the tragic and frankly murky circumstances of his death (another PV myth, as it turns out).
Crump's death:  I think if you dig a little, you'll find it's common knowledge, that the official line was fiction.”

Paul;

Obviously, that’s probably a REALLY touchy subject but what the hell, discussing it isn’t revealing any classified state secrets that I’m aware of. I’ve heard that rumor for years that Crump killed himself. I’ve asked some who know PVGC very well, and some from PVGC about that rumor and I’ve discussed it at length with Geoff Shackelford beginning a number of years ago. Geoff always said he feels it might be true but he certainly says he can’t prove it.

I’m not even that I’m interested in getting to the bottom of what it was that caused Crump’s death simply so I might know what did happen to cause his death—eg suicide, as you seem to be saying, or as Jim Finegan reported in his history book, “The end came without warning when the poison from an abscess in his mouth somehow found its way to his brain, killing him apparently within minutes. A local newspaper account said that he died at his home in Merchantville and that “…only the day before he had been greeting his acquaintances on the street, and one of them remarked to him to take good care of himself, not realizing that his end was so near….””  

What I am interested in, though, is why you seem to think that Crump has been glorified since what you refer to as ‘the tragic and frankly murky circumstances of his death (another PV myth, as it turns out)’?

And why do you say; ‘Crump’s death: I think if you dig a little, you’ll find it’s common knowledge, that the official line was fiction’?

I’m assuming the version of Jim Finegan’s I just quoted above was what you’re calling the “official line which was fiction”. If you’re stating on here that that version was fiction I’m assuming you’re saying that the truth of his death, in your opinion, was suicide? Am I correct to assume that’s what you ARE SAYING?

Now, I might be able to imagine that if Crump was a Catholic and he did commit suicide that may have been cause for someone, perhaps even in conjunction with many of his friends to cover that up, perhaps for religious reasons, as, although I’m not Catholic or even a religious man, I have been told that in the Catholic Church committing suicide is such a sin the Catholic Church would not or may not allow one to be buried as a Catholic. I can understand some fiction being created if that were the reason. Even 96 years later I sure don’t want to contribute to George Crump’s soul burning in Hell!

But you say ‘Crump has been glorified since the tragic and frankly murky circumstances of his death’?

I can’t understand why you think his death made him glorified, and particularly glorified for his part in the creation of PVGC of all things, most particularly if his death was tragic and murky. My sense has always been from the written word of so many of his friends and so many golf architects and others that he was glorified for what he accomplished at PVGC in those five or so years he worked on it every day and for the passion and personal funds he poured into it.

So would you mind explaining to me why you said that? And secondly, as I asked Tom MacWood a number of times yesterday, both why and how either or both of you know, can prove or confirm that George Crump did commit suicide. What are you two using to prove that?

Yesterday, sort of out of the blue, Tom MacWood on the IM of this website said to me, ‘George Crump killed himself.” When I asked him why and how he knew that he said ‘because it’s the truth.’ When I asked if he could confirm why it was the truth he responded with just two words; ‘It’s confirmed’. When I asked him again to give me something proving or confirming it I did not hear from him again, and haven’t since.

So, I’m asking both of you, particularly since you seem to be using this as something you know to be true and you’re also using it as a reason why Crump was glorified, even glorified for his part in PVGC’s architecture and apparently even why there’s been some campaign on PVGC’s part to create fiction and to exclude the legitimate contributions of others involving the architecture of PV, would either or both of you mind telling me what you know that will prove and confirm George Crump committed suicide? Tom MacWood also told me on that IM yesterday that he always seeks the truth no matter where or with whom it might pan out. Because if either of you can’t prove and confirm what you said about that, I think the both of you have a certain amount retracting to do about the things you’ve said about Crump being glorified and I think you both probably have a certain amount of apologizing to do to PVGC and its members, both todays members and those members over the years for the way they’ve felt about Crump and his part in PVGC.

[ian]

While all the conjecture on who did what on the golf course is so much fun for someone like myself, the speculation on Crump's death is simply unnessasary.


This course will not add to Colt's legacy if he did route it; it will not lessen his legacy if he only served in an assisting role like Tillinghaust. In my mind he remains one of the two or three best to ever design golf holes.


Could you guys clarify the dates for me for the pencil drawing (Christian's office) and the blue/red plan (clubhouse). I just want to better understand the timing before I even venture to test each of your theories.


I have all the 1915 Canadian Golfer magazines which talks about Colt and Ancaster. I will look for any reference to Pine Valley (over the week-end). There is a Pine Valley article in 1926, but it does not help.

[TEPaul]

"This (as is most medical information "translated into people-ese") is absolute hogwash, this is not a way peole die. Period.  Literary descriptions of romanticized death are, well, universally abysmally bad.  Writers would be much better off actually consulting physicians when they write."

redanman;

I'm sure you're right about that. I mentioned to my wife who's a nurse (and her father and brother are doctors) that description by Finegan in the history book of how Crump actually died by having poison from his mouth (a tooth abscess?) go to his brain and kill him within minutes. She said she didn't think that was possible and that in her opinion if it killed him within minutes it would've done so by going to his heart not his brain.

[wsmorrison]

In a letter to R. A. Oakley dated February 6, 1918 Hugh Wilson writes:

"I suppose you have heard of the sad news of George Crump's Death.  He died suddenly from an abscess on the brain."

I don't know if this abscess was due to tooth decay or not.  I remember an anthropology professor told me that the leading cause of death in prehistoric times was due to tooth decay.  He said that the infection goes to the brain and once this happens death occurs rather quickly.  

I'm not a doctor and don't know what happened to Crump.  But from what I've been told and from what I've read, if someone ignores tooth decay (Crump was reportedly working single-mindedly in the woods for 5 years) then a lot of bad things can happen.

An abscessed tooth can cause:

Cellulitis--an acute inflammation of the connective tissue of the skin, caused by infection with staphylococcus, streptococcus or other bacteria.

Osteomyelitis--an acute or chronic bone infection, usually caused by bacteria.

Brain abscesses--commonly occur when bacteria or fungi infect part of the brain. Inflammation develops in response. Infected brain cells, white blood cells, and live and dead microorganisms collect in a limited area of the brain. This area becomes enclosed by a membrane that forms around it and creates a mass.

While this immune response can protect the brain by isolating the infection, it can also do more harm than good. The brain swells in response to the inflammation, and the mass may put pressure on delicate brain tissue. Infected material can block the blood vessels of the brain, further damaging tissues by causing cell death and swelling of additional cells. Multiple abcesses are uncommon except in immunocompromised patients.

Infectious agents gain access to the brain in several ways. The most common way is through infected blood. Ear and sinus infections may also spread directly to the brain because of their close proximity.

Symptoms may develop gradually or suddenly. There may be little or no sign of general infection throughout the body. Early symptoms are usually headache, muscle weakness, visual changes, difficulty with balance or coordination, or seizures.

People at higher risk include those with congenital heart diseases, such as Tetralogy of Fallot, and people with congenital blood vessel abnormalities of the lungs, such as Osler-Weber-Rendu disease. These disorders carry a high risk of infection of the heart or lungs, which can then spread to the brain. People with HIV infection or other conditions that compromise the immune system are also at higher risk.


Why isn't it possible that Crump ignored his dental health and this ultimately led to a brain infection and death?  Would there be a lot of bleeding through ears, nose or mouth involved from a person dying from a brain abscess?  If so,  
this may account for a story that speculates he died from a self-inflicted gun shot.  Ignoring an abscessed tooth is, in the long run, killing yourself.  But who is looking for a romantic tragedy here?  I think the one who thinks Crump, depicted as a lonely social misfit, killed himself with scant evidence (or at least scant disclosure).  Or shall we at this point believe Hugh Wilson who described the cause of death in a private letter to a mutual friend/acquaintence?

[wsmorrison]

The events leading up to a fatal CVA or whatever may have been a long time coming, perhaps the fatal attack would've seemed sudden.  In any case, can you see a scenario where there might've been a lot of external bleeding?

[TEPaul]

redanman;

But my point in this thread isn't about how Crump died---whether he had a sudden stroke, whether he died from the poison from an abscess in his mouth that killed him somehow or whether he took a gun and shot himself. Whichever way he died it was still as tragic for a man of 46 in the prime of his life and in the midst of doing something he obviously was so dedicated to and so passionate about---creating PVGC.

My point here is two other things---first, if he committed suicide by shooting himself why did his friends cover up that fact if they knew what happened? If they did that, logically I'd think they may have done it for some religuous reason, particularly if Crump was Catholic which frankly I don't know. The fact that Father Simon Carr was apparently his closest friend may indicate he was Catholic and perhaps very devout as well, although Carr may've just been a golfing friend, as both he and Crump had fairly successful careers in amateur golf around Philadelphia in the same era and just knew each other well for that reason.

And secondly, my point is if contributors on here such as Paul Turner and Tom MacWood are saying they can prove Crump committed suicide then I'd simply like to know if and how they can prove that, period.

The reason I'm asking them to tell me how they can prove that is because they seem to be using this tragic death by suicide as one of the primary reasons that Crump began to be glorified by PVGC and by his friends and that that glorification of him has led the club to exclude or minimize the contributions of others that may have been far more meaningful than the club is willing to admit. To Paul and Tom this seems to particularly pertain to Harry Colt.

I've been around PVGC for a few decades now and I've both heard that rumor that Crump may have committed suicide and also I've heard many times from many down there that they always heard or felt that Colt came in and routed that whole course and that then Crump spent the remaining five years until he died in Jan 1918 (after Colt left in June 1913 never to return again to America) designing the holes of that routing the way he saw fit. There're numerous accounts from so many that Crump, down there everyday, shot tested endlessly with his foreman Jim Govan and constantly worked on exactly how he wanted those holes to be.

But now, in the last few years we can see that it's a fact that a number of holes, perhaps more than half of them already had been routed, and perhaps even somewhat designed the way they are now by Crump before Colt ever arrived in America or PVGC. This comes from architects such as Thomas, the Wilsons, Travis, Hunter and numerous others who were around PVGC in the early days. But particularly this comes from the rather specific contemporaneous articles of Tillinghast. If Tillinghast describes some of the holes basically the way they are now to Crump before Colt ever arrived we certainly know that Colt could not have conceived of them. Tillinghast's early descriptions of PVGC and Crump's part in it before Colt arrived sets a very important timeline between the two.

Was Crump, following Colt's departure, constructing the particulars of the features of the routed holes to Colt's hole by hole drawing booklet? I don't know because I've never seen it but if I do I think I can fairly easily decipher what Crump (or someone else) did differently from that Colt booklet. I think Shelly and Finegan could too since both of them belonged to the club for a cumulative period of about 80 or so years, and they most certainly were about as familiar with it as one could be.

So, this isn't about how Crump died at all---it's about how or why the club and others glorified Crump. Paul and Tom seem to think it had a lot to do with his untimely death, while I think the club and others glorifiied him for what he did at PVGC, pouring his passion into creating the course on an everyday basis and also what would tranlate into close to $5 million dollars in today's money.

I think Crump was glorified by the club and those who knew him and knew PVGC for what he did there, and not for the way he died, whether it was from poison from an abscess in his mouth or from suicide.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

I realize you're not a doctor but Jeeesus man, you could sure fool me. You sure sound like a doctor, and therefore, in the virtual logic of this thread, you must be a doctor!

[TEPaul]

redanman;

I'm not disagreeing with anything you said about Crump's death. What I am disagreeing with, though, is how Paul and Tom seem to be suggesting that for some reason PVGC and Crump's friends covered up how he died and that if it's true that they understood he committed suicide (and then covered it up with a fictional story) they then began, at that point, to completely glorify the man for his part in PVGC because he committed suicide!

That just doesn't make much sense to me. I think they glorified him for PVGC for the personal daily part he played in the architectural creation of PVGC, not for the way he died or even that he did die. However he died or just the fact that he did die suddenly at 46 in 1918 is never going to change the fact of what he did at PVGC.

And that's the point. Paul and Tom seem to be suggesting otherwise. They seem to be suggesting that because Crump died, or the manner it which he died, was a primary reason for some campaign or even conspiracy on the part of the club and Crump's friends to glorify him at the exclusion of other architects who deserve more credit than the club has ever given them, particularly Colt! From everything I know about that club, the members and also what both Crump and Colt did there, that's simply not true.

[T_MacWood]

Strangely quiet is the Valley;
Through the clouds, the new moon shines;
Now the whimp'ring winds of winter
Brings a murmur from the pines.
Listen to the moaning night-wind.
For the whispers sadly say: --
"How desolate our Valley Since George has gone away."
"Men may raise a shaft of marble
And make words in chiseled lines,
But his true shrine, everlasting,
Shall be here among the pines; --
In the hearts of those, who loved him,
Deep in hearts of men, who'll say; --
'How desolate our Valley
Since George has gone away.'

--AW Tillinghast

This is a poem Tilly wrote after Crump's death. I think it gives you a good idea of the feelings his friends had for him.

Why his friends covered up the cause of his death is one question. Another even more important question is why he took his own life. Unfortunately that is question that often goes unanswered.

I think his friends at PV glorified him for many reasons. Here are a few:

* they obviously loved him
* he was the inspirational and creative force behind the creation of PV
* PV was an awesome project...one golf's greatest accomplishments
* he sacrificed much of his personal fortune to build the place
* he made the ultimate sacrifrice...literally giving his life to PV

Under the circumstances it is understandible why they would focus on Crump (I don't believe Paul or myself have ever said Crump doesn't deserve tremendous credit), but in that process Colt's role was minimized...early on, I doubt minimizing Colt was a deliberate effort. And as the years have gone by and the legend has grown, I think there is natural tendency not to alter the legend, to protect it, for fear it might affect Crump's status and indirectly affect PV. I personally don't believe it would have any affect on either....if anything, it might elevate both, if that is possible.

[wsmorrison]

"Why his friends covered up the cause of his death is one question. Another even more important question is why he took his own life. Unfortunately that is question that often goes unanswered."

The most important question today that goes unanswered is how do you know that Crump took his own life?  What is the proof?  

The connection between his death and/or the manner of his death and glorification that inspired historic revisionism is a stretch.  Tom, me thinks you are the one engaging in the revisionism.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
I recieved a phone call last night from TE...I gave him the source of the information. I am not going to reveal it on the Internet, and I hope TE doesn't reveal it on the Internet. If he does I deeply regret telling him, and would be hesitant to reveal anything to him in the future.

After being screamed at over the phone by TE...being accused of fabricating, making up information, being called a liar and a fraud, I would hope you would follow up on this source, not TE. A lighter touch will reveal the info, I fear a strong arm might come up empty. You have the right amount of diplomacy, calm, sincerity and historical curiosity for the job....TE appears to be a little on edge.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood;

Don't worry, I won't reveal what you said is the source of your proof that Crump committed suicide--not now anyway, but I can assure you I will follow up on the story you gave me last night of how you think you confirmed his suicide. And I will follow up in the same place, and probably with the same person (or persons) you mentioned! Whether or not you actually did confirm the fact that Crump committed suicide is one thing----not the most important one, though, in the context of the subject of this thread.

The most important thing, as Wayne mentioned, is both why and how you suggest that Crump's death or the manner in which he died had anything to do with the fact of what Crump's part was in the architectural conception and creation of PVGC and how that could be or was responsible for the minimizing of what Colt did there.

To us, and we believe to any reasonable mind or analyst, your conclusions in that vein really don't make much sense at all!

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

I'm sorry if I screamed at you over the phone last night. Sometimes I tend to really raise my voice if I think someone is lying to me. But in that regard, as per the above post, we shall see about that.