[Steve_ Shaffer]

How about a " Personal Mini Golf  Rake" 




https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Personal-Mini-Golf-Rake-Attachment-/263866802035

[John Kavanaugh]

It's also impossible on some steep sloped bunkers. After a fried egg on an extreme slope I may leave 2' deep depressions. There is only so much you can do reaching down with a wedge.


Me and my buddies have continued to play for the same stakes we always have. We are fine with rolling the ball out of footprints.


I'm confident that after a bit or research it will be determined that this rake paranoia is unfounded. It seems no worse than picking a partners ball out of the hole and tossing it back to him. And a ton better than the 20 or so door knobs we touch every day. All this was just a head fake to get golf back in play.


Oh, and btw, most carts have a personal rake hole on the back. Walkers just don't bother just like they don't fill divots. Suddenly everyone is a trap raker...hilarious.

[Richard_Mandell]

Mike,


Great topic.  I did a blog on this years ago (2011) for the Washington Times.  Here's the link, which makes many of the points you guys have already made:  [https://www.golf-architecture.com/post/toss-the-rakes-all-of-them  I remember being at a GolfInc. Conference years ago and listened to Gary Player wax on about how important it was to be sustainable with the game and business of golf.  I asked him about getting rid of all the rakes in the world and he quickly backtracked, saying we couldn't possibly do that.

[Rob Marshall]

Two players who both hit their ball into a pond find themselves with an equal penalty for a bad shot.  Two players who hit their balls into a bunker in which one has a good, playable lie while the other finds his ball in a 4" deep footprint from an asshat who played earlier and didn't bother to smooth out the area is distinctly unequal and silly.

Two players who both hit their balls into the same area of rough can get very different results.  At the weekend my partner and I both missed our 6th fairway left.  He had a shocking lie and was barely able to move the ball forward.  Mine was sitting up and I was able to get a utility on it with no impediment.  Are you suggesting that we should pick and place in rough, for the sake of equity?

Apples and Oranges.  A footprint is a lot different than a patch of clover........

[John Kavanaugh]

Player also hates the pin left in the hole. He says all those fat little fingers ruin the integrity of the hole.

[John Kavanaugh]

delete double post

[Ken Moum]

I learned something just this past year. If a guy establishes his handicap by cheating then why should I care if he cheats in competition? It seems equitable.


I personally can't afford to cheat.

My motto, "Why on earth would I cheat to lower my handicap?"


And, the guys who piss me off are the ones who cheat one direction in competitions, and the other way everywhere else. Otherwise known as sandbagging.

[Thomas Dai]

There is a word used in Britain, not sure if it’s used anywhere else, but it seems to sum up this kind of situation .... “diddums”.


Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

delete double post

[Mark Fedeli]

I'm firmly in the no rakes camp, and I just don't see footprints as a big deal.


At Bethpage Black, even with scores of rakes, the bunkers are so big and so deep and the sand so soft that you're going to find big footprints even with everyone having the best of intentions. You get used to it. Especially in match play: hole likely lost, move on. There are also four different unplayable lie rules that give you plenty of options for how to proceed in the case you find yourself in a truly horrific footprint. I think that's plenty fair. The penalty should not be as severe as a water hazard, but it should also have the potential to be more severe and inconsistent than everyday rough.


All of that aside, what bothers me most isn't the expectation of some sort of consistent lie, it's the expectation that, unless it's a fried egg in its own depression, the ball should nearly always be sitting up or able to accept a fairly clean strike. I hate soft sand because my bunker game is weak, but it can be a heckuva equalizer.

[Peter Flory]

Two players who both hit their ball into a pond find themselves with an equal penalty for a bad shot.  Two players who hit their balls into a bunker in which one has a good, playable lie while the other finds his ball in a 4" deep footprint from an asshat who played earlier and didn't bother to smooth out the area is distinctly unequal and silly.

Two players who both hit their balls into the same area of rough can get very different results.  At the weekend my partner and I both missed our 6th fairway left.  He had a shocking lie and was barely able to move the ball forward.  Mine was sitting up and I was able to get a utility on it with no impediment.  Are you suggesting that we should pick and place in rough, for the sake of equity?

But the lies in the rough aren't really because of players who played ahead of you.  In a tournament, you'd be at a severe disadvantage with no bunker raking if you teed of last.  The first group in the tournament would have zero issues and it would get progressively worse with each successive group. 

[Sean_A]

Are you suggesting golfers may not take care in smoothing over bunkers? 2 I guess one way around this is to not bother trying to smooth over the sand.

The biggest possible whammy of all is weather. That seems to be accepted as pot luck.

Ciao

[Steve_ Shaffer]

As mentioned above by Peter Flory...

In a tournament, you'd be at a severe disadvantage with no bunker raking if you teed of last.  The first group in the tournament would have zero issues and it would get progressively worse with each successive group.


This is why "no raking" will never happen in competitive golf- PGAT, LPGA, USGA, etc

[Kyle Harris]

What next, a free drop from a pond?
Atb

I'm certain that you can see the difference. 


Two players who both hit their ball into a pond find themselves with an equal penalty for a bad shot.  Two players who hit their balls into a bunker in which one has a good, playable lie while the other finds his ball in a 4" deep footprint from an asshat who played earlier and didn't bother to smooth out the area is distinctly unequal and silly.

My group has the first three tee times 5 days a week, so I have yet to need to deal with a footprint in a bunker.  But I, like many of you, would find it difficult to accept the randomness of unraked/unsmoothed bunkers in a tournament or for money.  And from a GCA standpoint, the deep footprint removes any option for a heroic recovery, which may well have been the architect's intent when he placed the bunker there in the first place.


As to the Tour, I know if you all sit quietly and think about it for a few minutes, you'll be able to imagine Patrick Reed or Sergio Garcia, for instance, being a bit of a problem in bunkers with no rakes.  THAT discussion is a non-starter to me, and it has nothing to do with labeling those guys as primadonnas.

Applying this logic I should be able to advance my ball to the most advantageous position in the fairway someone in my group is at because we are both in the fairway and therefore should be afforded the same reward.

[MCirba]

Just. Don't. Hit. It. In. The. Bunker.


It is a HAZARD, no matter what they euphemistically call them these days.  Hazards imply risk, hazards imply penalty, hazards imply chance of recovery and chance of doom in equal measures.


Hazards are not just another meticulously well-prepared and pampered area through the green where everyone is given a fair shake and a lovely outcome.  Lord.

[Rob Marshall]

Just. Don't. Hit. It. In. The. Bunker.


It is a HAZARD, no matter what they euphemistically call them these days.  Hazards imply risk, hazards imply penalty, hazards imply chance of recovery and chance of doom in equal measures.


Hazards are not just another meticulously well-prepared and pampered area through the green where everyone is given a fair shake and a lovely outcome.  Lord.

Water is a hazard, I fail to see how it implies chance of recovery and chance of doom in equal measure.


Lies vary in bunkers. Plugged, side hill, down hill, soft sand, firm sand, wet sand, short sided.....I fail to see how a footprint left by some mindless idiot fits in.


I’ve had to chip over a sprinkler head when I would have putted had it not been in my line. Unless the rule on the other side of the pond has changed they are allowed a drop.......just don’t hit it there....

[Mark Mammel]

I think there is a some kind of romantic sense of historical connection if one argues that bunkers don't need repair after taking a shot. I'm sure there was a time when this was the case; but as been noted if bunkers start the day raked and fresh, there is no way to play a tournament which presents the same course to all competitors. Of course, greens change during the day, as do fairways; but for the most part this is a function of wind, rain, and sun, not footsteps and chops. Of course, no relief from divots in the fairway either! I wish bunkers were actually a hazard for the elite players, as used to be the case, and I suspect this sentiment underpins the idea of the unmaintained bunker.

[SL_Solow]

Like many things in golf, this appears to be in large measure a reflection of the professional game.  Those going out in the morning would get better conditions than those in the afternoon.  while weather is a matter of luck, few pros would accept the "inequity" which might arise from unraked bunkers.  today they complain about a bad"rake job".  I suspect that once the health officials discover more about how the virus spreads or a vaccine is developed, we will see the return of bunker rakes.

[Lou_Duran]

Rakes will return in due time, but will the bad habits remain?


Tour average of sand saves is around 50%  I am a good bunker player and i am considerably below that (28% y-t-d).  If I had to play out of our bunkers as they normally are during this period, my scores would go up by a couple of strokes. 


One of the impediments for new people coming to the game is how difficult it is.  With the average handicap just south of 18, do we really want to make golf harder?  I've never heard someone say, "man, I was in a 6" deep footprint in the sand on x and it took me three to get out; what fun!".


Rake the damn things and do a good job.  Fill your divots and repair ball marks.  It is called courtesy and concern for your fellow players.  Be pure in how you deal with others.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

" Don't hit in the bunker"  is the same as " Don't hit it in the rough"  or " Don't hit it in the lake" .  Club pros use those statements all the time when members complain . Of course, we are all +8 handicaps. The issue is unraked bunkers for everyday golfers given the virus situation. Dollars to donuts, as soon as Shel Solow just stated, we will see the return of bunker rakes. Now that doesn't mean that everyday golfers perfectly rake bunkers. They don't and if one lands in a bunker with footprints, etc, there are no rules in effect for badly raked bunkers to be cleaned up prior to an attempt to extricate oneself from the bunker. It's tough luck. Do the best you can.


We all can't belong to Pine Valley.

[Tom_Doak]

As mentioned above by Peter Flory...

In a tournament, you'd be at a severe disadvantage with no bunker raking if you teed of last.  The first group in the tournament would have zero issues and it would get progressively worse with each successive group.


This is why "no raking" will never happen in competitive golf- PGAT, LPGA, USGA, etc

This of course makes the false assumption that all competitive golf is at medal play. 


In match play, even if you're off last, your opponent has the same issues you do, and both of you should adjust accordingly to give the bunkers greater weight in your tactical decisions.


Plus, how many bunkers are you really in over the course of 18 holes?  Today I was in four, and thought it was much more than normal.  Had one bad lie of the four, and it was in a little leftover rake mark from the morning.


The other solution is just not to build many bunkers.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Plus, how many bunkers are you really in over the course of 18 holes?  Today I was in four, and thought it was much more than normal.  Had one bad lie of the four, and it was in a little leftover rake mark from the morning.


The other solution is just not to build many bunkers.

Exactly.


My round the other day got off to a bad start because I found four bunkers on the first five holes. That was exceptional and I wasn't in another for the rest of the day. Cavendish doesn't have many bunkers!


Finding a bunker should surely cost the golfer somewhere between half a shot and a couple of shots, depending on the lie and position in the bunker and the skill applied in extrication. They are a hazard to be avoided, after all. A beautifully raked even sand surface which allows for a perfectly rehearsed stock shot each and every time does not a hazard make.


The main reason why I favour no rakes in bunkers however, is that golfers generally are terrible at raking. Not from the point of view of making an even surface, put from the standpoint of bunker maintenance.


More damage is done to bunkers by poor raking practice than anything else - particularly on courses with traditionally built bunkers rather than modern plastic ones.


They weren't built to be raked to death multiple times per day.


Would anyone seriously suggest that the bunkers on a historic course such as Cavendish should be "updated" with plastic edges and liners at great expense simply to facilitate abusive raking and to provide perfect consistent lies?


Oh, wait a minute...

[Sean_A]

I wonder how much course ratings would change if bunkers weren't raked. Imagine the increased difficulty of a place like Muirfield with 150 bunkers!

I guess an option would be to treat bunkers the same as water. Often times the penalty drop wouldn't be so pleasant. It would be good to see pros play this way. People are assuming bunkers will start the day freshly raked. Why? We might get to see some cool shots if are harsh bunkers. Crowds could boo players who take the drop.

Harsh bunkers could also be a reason to rethink bunker schemes when courses get worked on. I have been saying for at least 15 years that courses should have far fewer bunkers. That in turn could lead to more open fronted greens and a reason to keep courses more keen.

In any case, I played from completely unranked sheep shit and rock infested bunkers several times this year. It's not so bad if there are relatively few bunkers.

Ciao 

[Kyle Harris]

The amount of complaining about water hazards and OB is directly proportional to the amount of times those things influence play. So it goes with bunkers.



The 2019 Rules Revisions did us a service with the concept of the penalty area and not including bunkers within that bailiwick, and as much as I like Mike Cirba, his premise is somewhat at odds with Hugh Wilson's written-but-never-published contention that if bunkers do not offer the possibility of recovery they may as well be water hazards.

THAT BEING SAID.


It's f****** easy to practice shots from footprints. Stop bitching. You are not entitled to a line, stance, or to advance the ball any distance. Get in the practice bunker and work. I'm not giving you strokes for your laziness.

[Mark Pearce]

How much less of an issue would this be if it wasn't for the obsession with really soft, deep sand?  It may look good but give me a firm, course, gritty sand in bunkers every day.

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