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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Donald Ross Misconceptions
« on: May 19, 2020, 03:55:44 PM »
It sure seems like a lot of people have a lot of wrong thoughts about Donald Ross. He's credited as the designer of virtually every golf course built prior to 1950, rightly in some cases but wrongly in many others. He's associated with trends and practices that his work simply doesn't reflect, at least in the aggregate. And he's been misquoted in ways that I would (and soon will) argue are terribly damaging.


What are some of these commonly-held misconceptions about Ross? If you could snap your fingers and make one of them disappear, what would it be? And is he unique as a victim of misconception in the GCA world, or are there other architects that people get it all wrong about all the time too?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2020, 05:16:21 PM »
That he "mailed it in."
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2020, 05:36:35 PM »
Is the easy one that "all of his greens are reverse saucers?"
H.P.S.

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2020, 06:11:50 PM »
Is the easy one that "all of his greens are reverse saucers?"


Agree here wholeheartedly.
 
Also, erroneous lists of things Ross supposedly never did... (Punchbowls, Bunkers in front of Greens, bunkers Behind Greens etc...)
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2020, 06:20:57 PM »
No great architect wanted to build the same things over and over again -- even Seth Raynor's Redan holes were different from one another.


Ross is stereotyped the most because people have tried to do it more often, because he built so many courses.  They ought to be seen for their great variety, but people who want to be seen as Ross "experts" insist on trying to come up with a series of bullet points they can recite to sound smart.  And so do the magazines!  I once wrote a U.S. Open preview of Pinehurst No. 2 describing how it was different than most of Ross's other courses, and they sent it back and asked me to write more about how it was similar.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2020, 07:07:51 PM »
That he "mailed it in."


Did he ever mail one in, Sven?
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Peter Pallotta

Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2020, 07:38:35 PM »
I wonder when misconceptions start, and how they become stereotypes. And I wonder if we could find answers to that question by looking at the work of (and the misconceptions about) some of our more current architects, eg Dye and Nicklaus and Fazio and Coore and Doak etc. Were there equivalents to Golf Digest, disgruntled competitors, ill-informed television personalities, lazy writers and gca.com during or soon after Ross' time?


Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2020, 08:05:00 PM »
That he "mailed it in."


Did he ever mail one in, Sven?


Certainly not the 1/3 number of his total work that is thrown around. 


There were probably a few that he never visited, but I'd surmise those were either accommodations for clubs with smaller budgets and/or projects that were going to be handled by one of his associates from the get go.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2020, 08:10:41 PM »
I wonder when misconceptions start, and how they become stereotypes. And I wonder if we could find answers to that question by looking at the work of (and the misconceptions about) some of our more current architects, eg Dye and Nicklaus and Fazio and Coore and Doak etc. Were there equivalents to Golf Digest, disgruntled competitors, ill-informed television personalities, lazy writers and gca.com during or soon after Ross' time?


Indeed there were.


Walter Travis was the editor of one of the major golf magazines for several years, and A.W. Tillinghast a regular contributor to another.


No TV or Twitter, though, thank goodness.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2020, 08:15:13 PM »
That he "mailed it in."


Did he ever mail one in, Sven?


Certainly not the 1/3 number of his total work that is thrown around. 


There were probably a few that he never visited, but I'd surmise those were either accommodations for clubs with smaller budgets and/or projects that were going to be handled by one of his associates from the get go.




I agree with this generally.


It really was not that much different than the modern day.  Tom Fazio had clients who only expected him to come out twice, and others who wanted him very involved.  He treated them accordingly, and they all seem happy with what they got.


I'm sure Ross had some calls where they mostly wanted to use his name to promote the place, but I don't know how many of those he took on, or how many he turned down.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2020, 10:05:07 PM »
Jason,
There are a lot of very good books on Ross if you are really interested to learn more.  Plus I would recommend a few weeks or more studying at both The Golf House in NJ and at the Tuff’s Library in Pinehurst then go see a hundred or so of his courses and you will then at least have some idea what he was all about 😉

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2020, 10:26:53 PM »
I think it is a misconception to think he knew more about his intent than many of those who have professed to know his work backwards and forwards.   ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2020, 08:56:54 AM »
Mike,
I think you make an excellent point. We often build up many of the Golden Age architects as geniuses and simply brilliant at what they did and knew.  I remember being at Lancaster CC one time with Wayne Morrison and we were talking up Flynn to a very senior member who claimed he actually met Flynn before he died.  His comment shocked us.  He said something along the lines of, “you put Flynn on a pedestal, he was grass cutter for goodness sakes”. 


All you can do is take the time to study what these guys wrote and said and view their plans and actual designs (what is left of them) and draw your own conclusions from there.  The same will be said about today’s architects at some point as well.  Many think they are geniuses but history will decide. 

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2020, 10:15:49 AM »
Pat, the "domed greens" thing is definitely the first thought that comes to mind for me. There's some truth in it I guess - I do kind of feel like Ross uses more "shedding slopes" on his greens than a lot of architects do. False fronts, side runoffs, that kind of thing.


There's probably some truth in most misconceptions.


The one that makes me facepalm every time is the "gentle handshake" opening hole. There's some truth in it... but Ross' actual quote was "firm handshake." Which only makes sense. Who the hell aspires to a "gentle handshake"? Certainly not a tough and accomplished 19th century Scot.


There's a big difference between those adjectives. One applies to the opening hole at No. 2, or Mid Pines, or Holston Hills, or any number of other Ross courses. The other suggests that the first hole should be a on the easy side, which is decidedly not what Ross' actual quote implies, nor is it what his actual record of work on the ground shows. The Ross openers I've played tend to be reasonably straightforward, an opportunity to turn the shoulders and start finding your rhythm, but also solid full-swing golf holes that ask for solid play if you're going to start with par or better. And I like that in an opening hole - let me swing freely and boldly, but ask that I swing well and cover some ground. A firm handshake, not a pat on the head.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2020, 11:23:06 AM »
Another misconception--That PH2 is the only true Ross course, because he lived there and had the time to fine tune the course.  This probably follows the misconception that he never spent much time on other "Ross" courses.
Hopefully, the Seminole unveiling (to many) this past weekend disproves this.

Tim Fitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2020, 11:46:48 AM »
Pat, the "domed greens" thing is definitely the first thought that comes to mind for me. There's some truth in it I guess - I do kind of feel like Ross uses more "shedding slopes" on his greens than a lot of architects do. False fronts, side runoffs, that kind of thing.


There's probably some truth in most misconceptions.


The one that makes me facepalm every time is the "gentle handshake" opening hole. There's some truth in it... but Ross' actual quote was "firm handshake." Which only makes sense. Who the hell aspires to a "gentle handshake"? Certainly not a tough and accomplished 19th century Scot.


There's a big difference between those adjectives. One applies to the opening hole at No. 2, or Mid Pines, or Holston Hills, or any number of other Ross courses. The other suggests that the first hole should be a on the easy side, which is decidedly not what Ross' actual quote implies, nor is it what his actual record of work on the ground shows. The Ross openers I've played tend to be reasonably straightforward, an opportunity to turn the shoulders and start finding your rhythm, but also solid full-swing golf holes that ask for solid play if you're going to start with par or better. And I like that in an opening hole - let me swing freely and boldly, but ask that I swing well and cover some ground. A firm handshake, not a pat on the head.


Perhaps I am saying the same thing as you in different words, but I am not quite sure.  I understand the difference you articulate regarding a "gentle" vs. a "firm" handshake and the different golf holes that implies.  But, I think the emphasis may be on the wrong word.  The key to me is the "handshake", which implies a welcoming.  It doesn't have to be a pushover, but a handshake implies to me that the first hole not be a ball buster either.  I like the handshake approach for the reasons you described - I want a chance to get limber, want to chance to see how the ball is rolling out, want a chance to see how I am swinging the clubs that day.  A "welcoming" hole allows all of that. 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2020, 12:04:50 PM »
I think it is a misconception to think he knew more about his intent than many of those who have professed to know his work backwards and forwards.   ;D



I tend to agree, thinking about any of the previous generations of gca's. :)


I have told the story before, but I toured Franklin Hills many years ago.  The superintendent still had Ross's field notes.  I recall reading the notes and thinking, "Hey, just what I would think!"


Notes included things like "Move 2nd FW left," "Lower green for vision", "balance cut and fill," etc.  Nothing magical, just good basic design concerns we have all been taught and which he got slightly wrong on plan (probably didn't do cut and fill calcs or run cross sections to check visibility as would later become common, but just a guess.)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2020, 12:22:11 PM »
Tim, both words matter. As you mention, the "handshake" part implies a degree of welcoming or greeting. I don't gather from the quote or from Ross' work on the ground that he sought to open you with a ball buster. The "firm" part, to me, implies a certain degree of accountability to the player. It's a greeting, and as you call out, an opportunity to swing with some freedom and see how the ball is flying and rolling. But it's not some wussified hole that hands out participation medals either.


In other words, there's a balance. "Firm handshake" calls out that balance - it's a hole where you're given an opportunity to get comfortable and build some confidence for the rest of the round, but you'll need to deliver sturdy swings. "Gentle handshake" removes that balance, which is why it's not an expression anyone has ever used except when misquoting.


I find that when discussing architecture, certainly on this site, there tends to be a drift toward emphasizing the "gentle" and "handshake" sides of the equation, and away from the "firm" side. For example, You'll find that people rave about "half-par" holes a lot more often when they're a half-par easy... we love a lot more 470 yard par 5s than 470 yard par 4s, even though both are par 4.5 holes. We laud 270 yard par 4s, but the only 230 yard par 3 anybody around here will speak of glowingly is 16 at Cypress.


Ross' work, at least in my experiences with it, is awfully consistent about maintaining the balance implied by a "firm handshake." The Ross openers I've played tend to be broad-shouldered holes of at least medium length that encourage full swings with some room to play. There aren't any forced carries or real lost ball opportunities I can think of on the ones I've played. But they're also challenging holes where par is well-earned. They give you a fair opportunity to find a good start, but not without solid play.


And I'm with him - those are my favorite types of opening holes, and when I think of the best openers I've played, a host of Ross holes pop to mind along with a few others that I think he'd probably have appreciated.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2020, 02:55:24 PM »

Slightly OT, but last week I was studying a course for some rerouting to fit in a practice area.  Many factors affected our options, and it appeared the best on featured turning the 9th, a 470 par 4 with water on the left to make the first hole, now a 490 yard par 4 with a lake on the right (and downwind side)  I could fiddle a bit with the distance, but the lake 100 year overflow runs in front of the existing tee and pushes the green back and can't be moved.  Also, the tee could move up the hill, but only to about a 530 yard par 5 and one of my personal opening hole rules (which I have violated on occasion) is don't slow play down with a reachable par 5 on the first hole. 


One of the owner group mentions the "gentle (or firm, I don't care) handshake" rule of design.  I tell him, "I guess we're using the "architect is showing whose the boss" theory."  He had never heard of that one before, LOL.


I wonder how often any architect actually follows their own guidelines?  I recall the Ross designed Bob O Link near Chicago had hole no. 1 as the no. 1 handicap hole as well.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2020, 05:13:54 PM »
I've always preferred to call it a "friendly handshake as an alternative to starting with a fist fight".
Proud member of a Doak 3.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2020, 05:43:32 PM »
He is one of the best architects ever.
AKA Mayday

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2020, 07:49:46 PM »
He is one of the best architects ever.



Since he is the patron saint of ASGCA, I am typing this with my fake nose and oversized glasses to protect my identity, but I agree. :)


He didn't have the flare of MacK or others. I always thought that perhaps his stereotypical Scot frugality held him back from the heights he could have accomplished artistically.  Remember that Seminole and its first time for him fancy bunkering was an attempt to catch up with what had evolved into the prevailing style.  Would a great architect do that?


Other architects had a bit more flamboyant personalities and I think it showed in their work. 


BTW, the other misconception is how his offices worked.  I have seen early photos of Beverly, done by his Chicago branch, and it looked thoroughly modern, not at all like the subtle forms we associate with his east coast courses.


Of course, its just speculation on my part, but it seems like that to me.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2020, 10:38:52 PM »
His name is attached to 26 courses of the top 100 on the Golfweek Classic list.  Of the next 100, 35 are his courses.  That is 61 out of 200 courses.  For one architect.  Amazing.


Tell me again how he wasn't one of the best architects ever.




"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2020, 11:40:35 PM »
His name is attached to 26 courses of the top 100 on the Golfweek Classic list.  Of the next 100, 35 are his courses.  That is 61 out of 200 courses.  For one architect.  Amazing.


Tell me again how he wasn't one of the best architects ever.






 I’m mystified.



AKA Mayday

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Donald Ross Misconceptions
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2020, 09:37:27 AM »
His name is attached to 26 courses of the top 100 on the Golfweek Classic list.  Of the next 100, 35 are his courses.  That is 61 out of 200 courses.  For one architect.  Amazing.


Tell me again how he wasn't one of the best architects ever.



Better marketing department? ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach