How Would You Design the New 8th at Dornoch

[Bryan Izatt]

With the new 7th about to be in play at Royal Dornoch, the reworking of the 8th is planned to be done next winter and beyond.  The thought is that it will be a dogleg right from tees near the old 7th green to try to get golfers to drive to the top level and then play a long second shot down to the green.  I think the trade off in keeping most if not all players on the top level with their drives will be a need to make the hole an exceedingly long for a par 4.

I've mocked up the aerial of the hole by creating some tees and fairways and planting some gorse and have included some yardages to give some idea of what it would look like.  You can click through to view a larger version.

How would you make it different and better.

[Niall C]

very, very carefully

[Niall C]

OK, serious response.

I like the new angle of attack with the change of tee position. Before it felt that everything was going to run off down the slope to the right and be more or less in the same place. Now with the drive and the angle the ball is running at their is perhaps a better chance of getting to the left side of the bottom fairway. That might be wishful thinking on my part but time will tell.

I would be loath to touch the green at all as it's one of the more entertaining ones but to maybe reward a drive as I've just described I'd be inclined to either have a bunker or preferably a spine/ridge running at slight angle back down the fairway from the right hand-side green bunker, thereby rewarding the drive up the left.

It would also maybe dissuade anyone from hitting their drive down the 9th fairway and looking to play in from there.

Niall

[Lou_Duran]

While the club gives me carte blanche on design and a modest budget, I'd have my guys clearing the gorse from behind old #7 green also clear 50-100 yards behind #7 tee and cut a new switchback from #6 green to a new back tee as high and close to the road as possible.  # 7 would now be a par 5 running in the opposite direction of the only two other 5s (9, 12).  I'd wait to see how it plays before adding fairway bunkers and or scruffy areas, primarily on the right.


As to #8, I'd clear most of the gorse behind old 7 green all the way down to the bottom of the swale.  I'd locate the primary tee where the green currently sits, maybe push it over a bit to the right near the gorse to enhance the dogleg.  I would put another tee behind that one tight against the gorse, maybe 50 yards or so, carefully considering the barrier between the new 7th green and the new back tee for #8 (which would be open primarily for serious competitions).


As to playing 8 down 9, it may be done by accident, but I doubt that most Dornoch golfers would attempt that more difficult route.  If it becomes a problem, clear more fairway space before the drop or put in the dreaded in-course OB.

[Ben Stephens]

While the club gives me carte blanche on design and a modest budget, I'd have my guys clearing the gorse from behind old #7 green also clear 50-100 yards behind #7 tee and cut a new switchback from #6 green to a new back tee as high and close to the road as possible.  # 7 would now be a par 5 running in the opposite direction of the only two other 5s (9, 12).  I'd wait to see how it plays before adding fairway bunkers and or scruffy areas, primarily on the right.


As to #8, I'd clear most of the gorse behind old 7 green all the way down to the bottom of the swale.  I'd locate the primary tee where the green currently sits, maybe push it over a bit to the right near the gorse to enhance the dogleg.  I would put another tee behind that one tight against the gorse, maybe 50 yards or so, carefully considering the barrier between the new 7th green and the new back tee for #8 (which would be open primarily for serious competitions).


As to playing 8 down 9, it may be done by accident, but I doubt that most Dornoch golfers would attempt that more difficult route.  If it becomes a problem, clear more fairway space before the drop or put in the dreaded in-course OB.

I visualise that I would play down 9 based on where Bryan has put the tee. To alleviate that situation the tee will need to be higher up to the left side of the old 7th green so that the 8th fairway is more risk averse than going down the ninth its a matter of getting the angles right 


The most similar hole to this I have played is the 9th at Seascale

[Bryan Izatt]

OK, serious response.

I like the new angle of attack with the change of tee position. Before it felt that everything was going to run off down the slope to the right and be more or less in the same place. Now with the drive and the angle the ball is running at their is perhaps a better chance of getting to the left side of the bottom fairway. That might be wishful thinking on my part but time will tell.

I would be loath to touch the green at all as it's one of the more entertaining ones but to maybe reward a drive as I've just described I'd be inclined to either have a bunker or preferably a spine/ridge running at slight angle back down the fairway from the right hand-side green bunker, thereby rewarding the drive up the left.

It would also maybe dissuade anyone from hitting their drive down the 9th fairway and looking to play in from there.

Niall

I guess it's possible that the angle on the drive might get more long players to be able to reach the lower left part of the fairway, but I'm skeptical.  The hill is not at right angles to the lower fairway; it angles from long left to short right so anhthing that rolls down the hill gets pushed to the extreme right fairway or even right rough.  I assume they would not want to do any major work to reangle the slope.


I understand what you're saying about the spine and it would reward those getting to the left side of the fairway.  However, I think that the whole lower fairway and approach and green should be hands off.  It's one of the best pieces of ground on the course or anywhere, for that matter.  JMHO.

[Bryan Izatt]

While the club gives me carte blanche on design and a modest budget, I'd have my guys clearing the gorse from behind old #7 green also clear 50-100 yards behind #7 tee and cut a new switchback from #6 green to a new back tee as high and close to the road as possible.  # 7 would now be a par 5 running in the opposite direction of the only two other 5s (9, 12).  I'd wait to see how it plays before adding fairway bunkers and or scruffy areas, primarily on the right.


As to #8, I'd clear most of the gorse behind old 7 green all the way down to the bottom of the swale.  I'd locate the primary tee where the green currently sits, maybe push it over a bit to the right near the gorse to enhance the dogleg.  I would put another tee behind that one tight against the gorse, maybe 50 yards or so, carefully considering the barrier between the new 7th green and the new back tee for #8 (which would be open primarily for serious competitions).


As to playing 8 down 9, it may be done by accident, but I doubt that most Dornoch golfers would attempt that more difficult route.  If it becomes a problem, clear more fairway space before the drop or put in the dreaded in-course OB.

I had the same thought about making the 7th a par 5 by moving the tee back.  It must be a good idea if we both agree.    But, the new 7th is a done deed now, although it wouldn't be hard to move the tee back to make it a par 5 even with the new alignment.


On the 8th I assume you mean the hill - swales are smaller than that hill - or did you have a different swale in mind.  A new far back tee by the gorse hedge on the old 7th fairway would make the hole extraordinarily long but could keep even long players on the top tier.  That would be two really long holes in a row even for a serious competition.  Do they not use the back tees even for ordinary club competitions?


I don't think that playing down to 9th on the right is a more difficult shot if you can overcome the fear of hitting it over the gorse into the unknown.  One way to prevent that line of play is to let the gorse encroach right up to the right side of the tee so that there's no way to get the tee shot up in time to clear the gorse.  One of the courses around here did that with a 15 foot high cedar hedge to prevent long hitters from cutting over the driving range on a 90 degree dogleg.

[Ben Stephens]

Bryan,


Here is the link to M+E presentation for Dornoch back in 2015 - the proposals for 7 and 8 is on page 26-27


https://issuu.com/mackenzieandebert/docs/visionforchampcoursevrdgc2015-07_di


Cheers
Ben

[Niall C]

Bryan

No I wasn't going to do any muck shifting other than the spine/bunker I referred to. I was just basically looking to work with what nature has given us and on the basis of two fixed points ie. tee and green, that were a given.

Re the slope, at the moment it is my impression that to end up on the lower left hand side of the fairway you need to be hitting a fairly strong ball because anything that doesn't go over the edge at pace will tend to get pushed right. In moving the tee to the new position, the ball is going over at an angle that to an extent counteracts the direction of the slope, so in my fevered imagination a long drive catching the slope at its furthest point gives the optimum angle in to the green. Of course the danger is a slight pull leaves you up on the top deck.

My design idea basically relies on the run of the ball, as it maybe should on a links, and in saying that I acknowledge that the ball might not run the way I imagine.

Niall

[Bryan Izatt]

Ben,


Thanks for the link to M&E proposal.  Are they still the consulting architects. 


After a quick look at page 27, 28 and 29 that deal with the recommendations for the 8th hole I found it a little confusing.  Pages 28 and 29 look like their final recommendation.  The changes for 8 would be minimal - move the regular tee slightly right and create a new back tee that would be a bit more right in the middle of the current gorse bushes and adds 20 or more yards to the back tee. It seems predicated on keeping the 7th as it was.  They also proposed to add heather on both sides of the top fairway in place of some of the gorse and also some minor leveling at the back of the green to create more pin positions.


Page 27 describes what they call a more radical plan - that is moving the 7th hole over to the edge of the cliff.  The club has obviously implemented that "radical" idea from almost 5 years ago.


On that plan the 8th tees are moved a bit more to the right, but are still left of the old 7th green (and left of where I drew them).  The dogleg is still quite modest and the added length for the new back tees would still only reduce the number of players who can reach the bottom.  The regular tees are just right of the current regular tees and a bit back.  The dogleg from there is still quite slight and the tee wouldn't change significantly the number who can get down the hill from there. 


The proposed changes look quite modest compared to the 7th.  I wonder if the club will follow this plan or modify it or if there's a "radical" plan somewhere in the drawer.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben,


Thanks for the link to M&E proposal.  Are they still the consulting architects. 


After a quick look at page 27, 28 and 29 that deal with the recommendations for the 8th hole I found it a little confusing.  Pages 28 and 29 look like their final recommendation.  The changes for 8 would be minimal - move the regular tee slightly right and create a new back tee that would be a bit more right in the middle of the current gorse bushes and adds 20 or more yards to the back tee. It seems predicated on keeping the 7th as it was.  They also proposed to add heather on both sides of the top fairway in place of some of the gorse and also some minor leveling at the back of the green to create more pin positions.


Page 27 describes what they call a more radical plan - that is moving the 7th hole over to the edge of the cliff.  The club has obviously implemented that "radical" idea from almost 5 years ago.


On that plan the 8th tees are moved a bit more to the right, but are still left of the old 7th green (and left of where I drew them).  The dogleg is still quite modest and the added length for the new back tees would still only reduce the number of players who can reach the bottom.  The regular tees are just right of the current regular tees and a bit back.  The dogleg from there is still quite slight and the tee wouldn't change significantly the number who can get down the hill from there. 


The proposed changes look quite modest compared to the 7th.  I wonder if the club will follow this plan or modify it or if there's a "radical" plan somewhere in the drawer.

Bryan,


Assuming with their track record plus Tom Mackenzie being a member at Dornoch M+E remain as consultants with the recent work they have done.


Going back to the 8th - I am wondering in theory if it is possible that the 8th and 9th can be flipped over with 8 going down the existing 9th corridor with a green close to the boundary on the right and a new ninth in the reverse direction with green just behind and higher up the new 7th green


Cheers
Ben

[David_Tepper]

Going back to the 8th - I am wondering in theory if it is possible that the 8th and 9th can be flipped over with 8 going down the existing 9th corridor with a green close to the boundary on the right and a new ninth in the reverse direction with green just behind and higher up the new 7th green

Ben -

I don't see how that would work. Are you aware the entire 7th hole (both old & new) and the first half of the 8th hole sits on a headland/bluff 30 to 50 feet above the lower half of the 8th hole and the entire 9th hole?


Players climb to the upper level walking from the 6th green to the 7th tee and then back down to the lower level roughly 200 yards forward of the 8th tee. If I understand your suggestion correctly, it would require players to walk up & down that slope a 2nd time. In addition, the 9th green would be some distance from the 10th tee.


DT

[Ben Stephens]

Going back to the 8th - I am wondering in theory if it is possible that the 8th and 9th can be flipped over with 8 going down the existing 9th corridor with a green close to the boundary on the right and a new ninth in the reverse direction with green just behind and higher up the new 7th green

Ben -

I don't see how that would work. Are you aware the entire 7th hole (both old & new) and the first half of the 8th hole sits on a headland/bluff 30 to 50 feet above the lower half of the 8th hole and the entire 9th hole?


Players climb to the upper level walking from the 6th green to the 7th tee and then back down to the lower level roughly 200 yards forward of the 8th tee. If I understand your suggestion correctly, it would require players to walk up & down that slope a 2nd time. In addition, the 9th green would be some distance from the 10th tee.


DT

DT



I only made this assumption based on photos which don’t really show the steepness that well at times and Google Earth maps which gives assumed levels and it said it was a 5m difference not 10m as Dornoch is your second home will take your word for it and thanks for the feedback


The line I initially had in mind was that the fairway would follow across the diagonal ridge and not go too far up to the bluff and use the bank and head towards the new 7th green more like a cape hole obviously will not work as the banking is too steep


Hope to play Dornoch one day


Cheers
Ben

[William_G]

Ben, Thanks for the link to the ME proposal!!!!!


Fantastic insight to the "radical idea" for 7 and 8.


The ME team seem to just fantastic folks based on the read on the proposal for the club.


cheers