Blind uphill 2nd shot par 5s

[Jason Thurman]

It seems like everyone who visits Pebble Beach comes away with a glowing review of the 6th. Seeing it looming when you reach 3 green is the biggest "Holy shit, I'm here!" moment of the round. Staring up the hill as you arrive at your tee shot is horrifying and exhilirating. And yet, it's the kind of hole I'm always told wouldn't be built today, in part because of that funky blind uphill 2nd shot.


On my one play at Pebble Beach, I wasn't lucky or good enough to hit a 2nd shot that sparked any suspense. But I've gotten a little taste of what it might be like to rip a good looking 2nd shot up the hill lately, courtesy of the 5th hole at my home course. It's a 500 yard par 5, with a tee shot playing downhill to the fairway before doglegging left and up a big hill. The terrain rises before falling to a swale about 60 yards short of the green, with the green itself perched on another knoll.


Maybe 30% of the time I'm able to take a stab at reaching in two. Only once have I been able to see any part of the flag on that second shot. There's a real joy in hitting a good one that sails over the crest of the hill, and trying to stretch just a few inches taller with each step as you climb the hill to peek and see if you've reached the green. Even when just laying up, the blind target adds a degree of suspense and there's a certain satisfaction and sense of anticipation in seeing a shot land on the hilltop and disappear from sight.


I'm coming to love the concept of the blind uphill 2nd shot par 5, especially when the hole is relatively reachable. I can't think of many examples though. 9 at Lawsonia doesn't quite nail the template, but it's close enough to have a similar effect. Where else are there examples of this concept? Do you like it? When does it work, and when does it fall flat?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jason,


Cabot Links has two par 5s like you describe, at the 8th and 11th holes. It's an interesting way to deal with severe elevation change on any property. Those par 5s help to get golfers back up to a central ridge that bisects the Links site. Six holes play into or off of that ridge. As you say, there's an interesting element of suspense involved with those blind shots up and over a steep hill. They're fun, different and dramatic.

[Ally Mcintosh]

We built one at Carne (the 5th) although this is more of an Alps style hole over a hill if you don't go the long way round.

The intent is that I'll be introducing one at Strandhill also. Definite blind second shot if you want to get within 100 yards of the green.

You could argue that the Steele / Ebert 14th at Enniscrone also falls in to this category, certainly if you want to be near or on the green with your 2nd.

[Tim Martin]

Yale 18 seems to fit the bill. Although not many mortals will reach the green in two the second shot is a blast to hit with the suspense unfolding as you reach the top of the upper fairway or getting far enough around the corner on the lower fairway to get a look at where your ball ends up.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Four Streams my old club outside DC has a great 18th hole. It begins with an elevated tee with a blind second shot. There bunkers to the left and right of the wide landing area, which are visible from the fairway. It is possible to hit a second shot to about 100 yards and see the landing area but if you want to get as close as you can to the green it requires an heroic shot that will feed toward the green. It is a controversial hole because of the second shot but I loved it.


The sixth hole at Pebble is scary. I have to hit a shot from a downhill lie to an elevated landing area. The first time I played it, terror flowed through my veins.

[Thomas Dai]

Some better players and longer hitters might like these kind of holes but my suspicion is that they are just the kind of holes that most amateurs, both men and women, are not very keen on. Each to their own though.
atb

[Jason Thurman]

Thomas, it's funny you mention that. I played Pebble Beach with my mother, who I think was 50 at the time. She took two shots to get up the hill at 6, but still raved about the hole.


I've played quite a bit of golf with her over the years and learned a lot from it. She was never a very good golfer - probably never better than a 30 handicap, but she loves to play golf. The lack of ego in her approach to the game can be almost inspiring. She wants to hit good shots, which for her might mean making a 100 yard carry over a bunker to get a little closer to a green from a distance that might only be a 9 iron to reach the flag for me. And while she relishes the occasional par, she tends to think smaller. It's the shots that accomplish a goal that really stand out to her, rather than scoring. I recall her making a birdie on the


She enjoyed 6 at Pebble, in part, because taking two shots to cover 60 yards of ground isn't foreign to her at all. But when she hit from 2/3rds of the way up the hill and crested it, she still got a rush out of watching her ball sail over the top. The hole looked impossible to her from the fairway, but she was able to "conquer" it and didn't really care that she made... I don't remember, but it damn sure wasn't a par.


I understand, of course, that there are plenty of weaker players who don't take the same approach she does and instead advocate for design that lets them slap it around without too much ego damage from their final score. And difficulty can certainly go too far - I don't advocate for long forced carries that simply don't allow a weaker player to even play. But any golfer can surmount the 6th at Pebble, even if it takes 2 or 3 swings to pull the hill. It's unfortunate to think that such a unique and striking hole might not be built today, because too many people might grumble after their pride is wounded.


Actually, come to think of it... I took two shots to pull the hill too.

[David_Tepper]

The 12th hole at Castle Stuart is a blind, uphill par-5. I don't have any strong feelings about the hole. I certainly don't hit it far enough to even think about reaching the green in two.

[Greg Stebbins]

4 Center at Ridgewood (par 4 when the tour comes to town)


14 at Quaker Ridge


8 at New South Wales


18 at Fenway


4 at BPB


I would agree that these types of holes are seen as opportunities for better players whereas lesser players might see them as a difficult slog. 

[David_Tepper]

#18 at Lake Merced (which is played as #9 when the LPGA is in town).

[Jeff Schley]

8TH at ANGC
Got to play a draw or a launch one what looks like way left.

[BCrosby]

ANGC has a blind uphill second shot par 5 - the 8th. And a blind downhill second shot par 5 - the 2nd.


Bob

[MCirba]

16 at Plainfield qualify?


3 at Olde Kinderhook?

[Matt_Cohn]

Well, there's 13 at Torrey Pines South, which is the rare blind downhill shot.


Overall it seems like a clever way to make a 3-shot par five interesting without necessarily making it harder. It's not a hazard, but it's also not just, "You hit the fairway once, now hit it again" as many long par fives can be.

[PCCraig]

Jason -


It's been a while since you've been there, but there are two good examples at Town & Country at the 4th and 6th.


Also, the 9th at WBYC would qualify. You can see a part of the green from the tee, but most 2nd shots are blind.

[MCirba]

The king of them all may be 7 at Ekwanok.   It is very similar to 6 at Pebble, sans ocean and cliffs.

[Tom_Doak]

Getting up a steep hill in the routing is a dilemma.  I try to do it on the tee shot where I can, but if you can't, the second shot on a par five [which is often a throwaway shot on flat terrain] is not a bad way to go.  If you're not going to see the target, having it in a situation where you don't really need to see the target is a plus.


I can't think of many holes like this I have built.  The one really good one that comes to mind is the 4th at Tumble Creek.  We did build up the fairway in the first landing area to try to make the second shot not so steep.


The other one, not as much of a favorite, is the 18th at CommonGround.


I also had a hole like this in the early routings of Pacific Dunes -- playing backwards up the 12th, toward what's now #5 green.  Mr. Keiser was not a fan of it, and really none of us were, once the gorse burned off and we could see what it looked like.  The hill wasn't nearly as big for the second shot there, and this is a rare instance where I think having a BIGGER hill actually makes the shot more appealing, because it gives you something big to do, instead of just being annoyingly blind.

[MCirba]

The 18th at Franklin Park (MA) is a really good one.

https://www.cityofbostongolf.com/course/william-j-devine-golf-course/course-tour

I loved the 18th at CommonGround for what it's worth, but I'm a big blind shot guy.

[Mike Hendren]

The 5th at The Homestead's Lower Cascades, dubbed "Marathon" if memory serves is a good example.

I feel compelled to add that in my opinion Augusta National's 8th might be among the best par 5's in America - perhaps in the world.  New thread?

Bogey

[Wayne_Kozun]

Cabot Links has two par 5s like you describe, at the 8th and 11th holes. It's an interesting way to deal with severe elevation change on any property. Those par 5s help to get golfers back up to a central ridge that bisects the Links site. Six holes play into or off of that ridge. As you say, there's an interesting element of suspense involved with those blind shots up and over a steep hill. They're fun, different and dramatic.

I immediately thought of #8 at Cabot Links.  I don't think #11 fits the description as well as it isn't really reachable.


Speaking of #6 at Pebble, that was the sight of what I think is one of Tiger's most memorable shots at the 2000 US Open.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygcgjlxUk58

[Paul Rudovsky]

#18 at Gulph Mills in Philly

[Mike Hendren]

The 4th at CC of Troy?
11th at Eastward Ho!
14th at Quintero.

[Matt_Cohn]

#18 at Gulph Mills in Philly

Highly uphill, but not at all blind I don't think?

[Tim Martin]

#18 at Gulph Mills in Philly

Highly uphill, but not at all blind I don't think?

Matt-How much distance is there between the bunker and the front of the green on the same line as the flag?

[JESII]

A few yards