Which existing course on a terrific site ....

[Ian Mackenzie]

1. Old Head


2. European Club


3. Nantucket Golf Club


4. Brora - take all the momentum from Coul, put it into Brora, buy the club and make the course even more spectacular.


5. Half Moon Bay Ocean Course

Plase spare Brora this....
what an odd group to tbe lumped in with

Sure...tell that to their balance sheet.

What an odd comment.  Brora has a fine course and, without a pandemic, a balance sheet better than most in the area.  The course doesn't need an upgrade, nor would an "upgrade" change the balance sheet.

Not odd at all: [size=78%]https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/brora-golf-club-coronavirus-support/[/size]


I was great to see the response and support there.


Yes, it is a fine course. No debate there.
as are many mentioned here. But, that was not the intent of the thread.

It WAS about an "upgrade that could transform it into being something really, really special"

It is my opinion that, if it was restored, renovated, updated, it would qualify as someting "really, really special.

You do not. That's fine. What then DO you say?

I think the green surrounds, tie-ins and turf quality leave it out of the category of "really, really special".

[Pete_Pittock]

Arcadia Bluffs, but that is based on a visit last century.

[Peter Pallotta]

Interesting what some are able to see and some aren't.
When it comes to golf courses, I'm unable to visualize what might've been, ie to see the site independently of the course that's already there.
Even with the few courses I know well and that have some very good features/topography, the way the site was actually used becomes so intertwined with the golf course itself that I find it hard to imagine any other course -- or certainly a better one.

[Ira Fishman]

1. Old Head


2. European Club


3. Nantucket Golf Club


4. Brora - take all the momentum from Coul, put it into Brora, buy the club and make the course even more spectacular.


5. Half Moon Bay Ocean Course

Plase spare Brora this....
what an odd group to tbe lumped in with

Sure...tell that to their balance sheet.

What an odd comment.  Brora has a fine course and, without a pandemic, a balance sheet better than most in the area.  The course doesn't need an upgrade, nor would an "upgrade" change the balance sheet.

Not odd at all: [size=78%]https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/brora-golf-club-coronavirus-support/[/size]


I was great to see the response and support there.


Yes, it is a fine course. No debate there.
as are many mentioned here. But, that was not the intent of the thread.

It WAS about an "upgrade that could transform it into being something really, really special"

It is my opinion that, if it was restored, renovated, updated, it would qualify as someting "really, really special.

You do not. That's fine. What then DO you say?

I think the green surrounds, tie-ins and turf quality leave it out of the category of "really, really special".

Ian,



I played Brora only once so I am not an expert, but I am really scratching my head as to the specific steps that you are recommending. Some examples for holes might help.


Ira

[Ira Fishman]

Can you imagine how great Cypress would be if they went to the ocean first via 18 corridor?

No, my imagination is not adequate. But if you post the routing that you are suggesting, it might prompt a different perspective.


Ira

[Mark Pearce]

Ian,


Brora is "really, really special".  It's almost perfect at being what it is.  Like Ira, I can't for the life of me understand what changes you would like to see made, nor have you suggested any.  As to the press coverage you link, you must have missed the words "without a pandemic" in the post you were replying to.  And if you're asking for my suggestion for this thread, again, you've missed my nomination of Noordwijkse, a course with all the pretensions that Brora is so well off without, and the land needed for a genuinely great course but which, through repetitive and dull design (especially around the greens) falls well short of greatness.

[JJShanley]

I'll go with my stock answer of Braid Hills, using more of the property for an 18 hole golf course, developing walking trails that allow the non-golfing public a better view of the city, and reopening the closed Hermitage kids course over the road as a reversible course, still for kids.


£20 million.

[Ian Andrew]

deleted

[Will Spivey]

Suspect most would say Torrey Pines.  I know Rees did it again to make it more US Open ready, and other changes made to the North course, but neither ever reflected in the original design anything that would suggest they were on a spectacular site near the ocean.  They were standard issue golf courses on a spectacular site.

Jeff, I know my first thought when I saw this thread was "Torrey Pines South." I've played it a few times, and apart from the views, remain underwhelmed. What a site! Someone else mentioned Half Moon Bay, which is in the same camp (though no place can match San Diego weather).


Another candidate is Southern Pines Golf Club in Pinehurst. (FWIW, I have heard the deal for Pine Needles to buy them has fallen through, but I can't confirm). That place could be all world with $1 - $2 million dollars in spruce up. A great routing, terrific land and a strong design.

[PCCraig]

Mississippi Dunes Golf Course in Cottage Grove, MN. Sand based land located on shores of Mississippi. Terrible course built on it, and now it's slated for housing redevelopment after owner ran course into ground. Terrific site for a golf course.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Country Club of the Rockies. Early Nicklaus design that can only be described as "odd." An incredibly flat site (huge advantage in the Rocky Mountains), actually walkable in a cartball haven, views for days, enough good land to not have the classic mountain site "cram" holes. Great soils and turf conditions due to the Eagle river running through the site. Shakeup required due to a once solid but aging membership.

[Kalen Braley]

Can you imagine how great Cypress would be if they went to the ocean first via 18 corridor?

No, my imagination is not adequate. But if you post the routing that you are suggesting, it might prompt a different perspective.

Ira

Ira,


I found an old RTJ CPC Renovation routing plan on the dark web.  Here is a quick Google Earth view of how he envisioned things...

[Mark_Fine]

Old Head for sure.  The site is a 13 and the course is a 4     Also agree with Nantucket.  It was a missed opportunity to do something great.  Half Moon Bay Ocean I disagree with from the standpoint that the soil is really bad there.  Hills took basically a flat potato field and did what he could with it.  If you trucked in a few million cubic feet of sand, then you have a different story.  18 at Cypress has grown on me.  The more you play there the more you give that hole more of a pass.  It is awkward but not terrible.  I also want the ocean holes 15, 16, and 17 at the end of my round not at the start. 

[Peter Gannon]

Montauk Downs, NY gets my vote. 


Southern Pines not getting TLC news is a bummer.  it's a special place I look forward to seeing again someday.

[Pete_Pittock]

Kalen,
Is the third hole a long three or short four. Nice short loop back to the clubhouse.

[Mike_Clayton]

Noordwijkse.  World class land.  Very good course which could be world class.

Mark,


They surely need more land (presumably tricky given the EU's aversion to building in sand dunes) to avoid having to play those 3 holes in the trees? And, that is tricky because 4, (from memory a good hole) is a long way from the 8th tee.
I'm thinking you could maybe make an acceptable hole from somewhere near there to the 7th green and get out that way?

[Jon Wiggett]

1. Old Head


2. European Club


3. Nantucket Golf Club


4. Brora - take all the momentum from Coul, put it into Brora, buy the club and make the course even more spectacular.


5. Half Moon Bay Ocean Course

Plase spare Brora this....
what an odd group to tbe lumped in with

Sure...tell that to their balance sheet.

What an odd comment.  Brora has a fine course and, without a pandemic, a balance sheet better than most in the area.  The course doesn't need an upgrade, nor would an "upgrade" change the balance sheet.

Not odd at all: [size=78%]https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/brora-golf-club-coronavirus-support/[/size]


I was great to see the response and support there.


Yes, it is a fine course. No debate there.
as are many mentioned here. But, that was not the intent of the thread.

It WAS about an "upgrade that could transform it into being something really, really special"

It is my opinion that, if it was restored, renovated, updated, it would qualify as someting "really, really special.

You do not. That's fine. What then DO you say?

I think the green surrounds, tie-ins and turf quality leave it out of the category of "really, really special".

Stunned by this Ian. I know Brora pretty well and would suggest that it is probably Braid's masterpiece in regards to links golf especially when it comes to the green complexes. It is also the best classical true links golfing experience you will find north of the Kingdom of Fife.


As for courses which have a premium site but could be improved two spring to mind. Eyemouth and Winterfield in Dunbar. Both enjoy spectacular sites that the courses don't live up to.

[Sean_A]

Jon

I stopped in for a walk around Eyemouth last year...not impressed. Much of the course is a field with a few holes on the sea. It reminded me of a much flatter The Glen. Both courses could do with being 9 holers 😎.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon

I stopped in for a walk around Eyemouth last year...not impressed. Much of the course is a field with a few holes on the sea. It reminded me of a much flatter The Glen. Both courses could do with being 9 holers 😎.

Ciao

Yes, Eyemouth is possibly one of the worst courses out there but with a bit of money and a good GCA it could be quite something.

[Tim Martin]

Montauk Downs, NY gets my vote. 


Southern Pines not getting TLC news is a bummer.  it's a special place I look forward to seeing again someday.

Agree on Montauk Downs. I found the holes to be very repetitive despite a pretty good piece of land.

[Tom_Doak]

Mississippi Dunes Golf Course in Cottage Grove, MN. Sand based land located on shores of Mississippi. Terrible course built on it, and now it's slated for housing redevelopment after owner ran course into ground. Terrific site for a golf course.

Wish I'd heard about that one before it was too late!

[Tom_Doak]

Old Head for sure.  The site is a 13 and the course is a 4   

I don't disagree that the course is not great, but the site was nearly what you make it out to be.  To break it down:


Drama 10
Topography 5-6
Acreage 4
Funding 4
Client 3
Vegetation 3
Soils 2


I spent a couple of weeks there in 1992.  I don't list it as one of my missed opportunities.

[David Davis]

Noordwijkse.  World class land.  Very good course which could be world class.

Mark,


I can't believe you beat me to the punch line on this. Good call!


There is no course I can think of in any that I have seen that has the potential to be world class on an amazing property that is in more need of and could benefit more from a thorough renovation than Noordwijkse.


At this point I don't think that's ever going to happen, sadly. There is a faction at the club that in light of overwhelming proof, which we most certainly have, are averse to change and believe the course is perfect just the way it is.


But it would help if Golf Club Atlas started a petition, lead by a knowledgable lawyer from the UK urging the club to make the most of the gift that nature has provided them.


 

[MCirba]

Huntsville (PA)

[Buck Wolter]

Country Club of the Rockies. Early Nicklaus design that can only be described as "odd." An incredibly flat site (huge advantage in the Rocky Mountains), actually walkable in a cartball haven, views for days, enough good land to not have the classic mountain site "cram" holes. Great soils and turf conditions due to the Eagle river running through the site. Shakeup required due to a once solid but aging membership.

Good call - I worked the greens crew there for a summer in the early 90's. Containment mound heaven -- the 3? holes back and forth across the Eagle were the best. Very severe greens, I remember one 3 tiered Mickey Mouse shaped green, I think they softened 18 after I left as you couldn't keep a putt from above the ridge on the green. It was an awesome place to work -- we called it a turf museum -- spent many afternoons as the only person on the course. Really liked the alternate fairway hole as hole location made one or the other preferable.