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Michael Moore

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Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« on: November 02, 2003, 11:17:05 AM »
From the Associated Press -


"It was the second time this year that Dawson waited until after the round to report a rules violation, a delay that caused a player to be disqualified. . . .

Dawson and Toledo were paired together the first two rounds last week at Disney. On their final hole at the Palm course in the second round, Toledo hit into a small area marked as ground under repair.

He was supposed to find the nearest point of relief for a free drop, which was to the left of the area. Toledo dropped to the right and played his shot to the green . . .

Dawson said he went out to the Palm course the following afternoon and called a PGA Tour rules official, who made the determination Sunday morning."


My procedural knowledge of the rules is nonexistent. How is this allowed to happen? What do you make of this?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

TEPaul

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2003, 12:12:33 PM »
What I make of it is Dawson should be given a quick education by the PGA Tour or some good rules expert or rules official on either the meaning of or at least the concept of the meaning within the rules of golf of the term "in a timely manner."

Someone might also suggest to Dawson that he read the old Dale Carnegie classic, "How to Win Friends and Influence People."
« Last Edit: November 02, 2003, 12:13:32 PM by TEPaul »

Bob_Huntley

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Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2003, 01:13:30 PM »
Didn't David Frost pull this on Nick Price some years ago in a million dollar tournament in South Africa?

JohnV

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2003, 02:18:38 PM »
Bob, I believe that what Frost did was watch Price move a sign board that was deemed immovable and then told him it was a penalty before the cards were turned in.  Price was upset that Frost didn't say something before he moved it and refused to sign his own scorecard with the penalty added in so he was DQ'ed.

As for Dawson's actions, if it was a case of not realizing it until the next day, he did the correct thing.  If he knew about it before he turned the scorecard was turned in, he should also be DQ'ed.  In reading this, I think that he thought about it later and went back to check it out himself the next day.  I don't think he was doing anything unethical.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2003, 02:22:26 PM »
John V. And I guess you think your an authority on the rules!  ;D

JohnV

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2003, 02:25:19 PM »
No I don't Tommy.  I think I'm pretty good, but there are least two others on this website who are better.  I know one thing, I am a qualified rules official as I've made plenty of mistakes over the years. ;D

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2003, 02:43:12 PM »
Yes, but when I have ever had a rules question, who have I gone to? :)

All just a little harmless ball-busting!
« Last Edit: November 02, 2003, 02:43:53 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Greg Holland

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Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2003, 03:47:30 PM »
The thing about what Dawson did that bothers me is, in an interview after the incident, he stated he doesn't know the rules, so he went back the next day and asked someone.  Its his profession, don't you think he should at least have a basic understanding of the rules -- especially, when his actions cost someone else lots of money and perhaps a tour card.  

What was the rules situation Dawson was involved in earlier this year?

TEPaul

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2003, 04:28:52 PM »
John V;

Although Dawson probably has some kind of responsibility within the spirit of the rules of golf to report a violation by a fellow competitor in a timely manner under the concept that fellow competitors should "protect the field" but if he didn't know that he should have reported it in a timely manner he really can't be held responsible. Frankly, even if he was  keeping the card of the fellow competitor in question and he did know under the spirit of the rules of stroke play that he should "protect the field" I don't know that there is anything within the rules to make Dawson so responsible that he should be DQed. The only possible way Dawson could be DQed under the rules in my mind for that incident was if there was some agreement between him and the fellow competitor in question to agree to waive a rule of golf. That clearly was not the case in this incident. Of course, "the committee" under rule 33-7 does have the right under the rules to DQ somebody in "exceptional individual cases" but I can't see that whatever Dawson did even remotely constituted that.

Bob_Huntley

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Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2003, 06:43:48 PM »
John V.

I am afraid Ii posed the question, knowing the answer in advance.

What Frost did, was to ask the question of a rules official whllst both of them were in the scorers box, AFTER Price had signed his card. Apparently the previous tournament had allowed relief from advertising boards that are an eyesore at some European Tour events. The tourney in question had not allowwed relief.

The officials, wanting to keep Price in the million dollar event were going to waive the rule and allow Price to change his card. Price refused, saying that with the card signed he was DQ'd.

I don't think relations between the two have been overly cordial since.

JohnV

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2003, 09:59:15 PM »
Bob, I couldn't remember the exact details, but I had thought that Price had not yet turned in his card even though he had signed it.  He then refused to add the two strokes and was DQ'ed.

As to Dawson, Decision 6-6a/5 makes it clear that if Dawson saw a violation and didn't report it before the card was signed, he would also be liable for disqualification under Rule 33-7.  We DQ'ed a player on the Futures Tour for this when I was out there.  It also happened on the Senior Tour a few years ago where Bob Murphy unknowingly committed a violation and another player didn't tell him about the problem until the next day.  Murphy turned himself in and the tour staff DQ'ed the other player.  The player was in another group when he saw Murphy practicing hitting putts in the fairway before a resumption of play.  He asked a rules official if that was allowed without telling him that he saw someone do it.

TEPaul

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2003, 06:10:29 AM »
JohnV:

I gotta tell you that situation with Bob Murphy and the other player who wasn't even in his group certainly seems harsh and unnecessary to me.

To me that brings up a whole series of questions about an incident like that that I can't see are specifically within the rules of golf or the decisions to deal with a situation like that in the manner you say it was dealt with. I'd sure like to know what "rules thread" that official and that "committee" followed to DQ that other player (not in Murphy's group).

Again, there are any number of legitimate questions brought up by that incident. Just how far does the Senior Tour take the concept of a "player's responsibility" (Rule 6-1) to "protect the field" certainly is one of them?

A bunch of interrelated rules come into play on that incident, in my opinion, such as Rule 1-3, perhaps 1-4 and certainly 33-1 and 33-7. To cut to the quick this sure seems like an incident where the committee had every right and good reason to waive or modify a penalty of disqualification of that other player.

Decision 6-6a/5 doesn't seem like a great analogy for that Murphy incident, in my opinion, because that decision deals with a competitor's marker, something that other player certainly was not (he wasn't even in the same group).

Perhaps there was something that the Senior Tour uses under "Conditions of Competition" (Rule 33-1) which actually strengthens the concept of "protecting the field" and every competitor's "player's responsibility" under Rule 6-1 is far more stringent! So what rule did they actually use to DQ that other player for violating would be my question? Rule 1-3, 6-1, or perhaps something in the "Conditions of Competition" from Rule 33-1?

I certainly see no agreement between Murphy and the other player to "agree to waive a rule" which is sort of the test for violating rule 1-3. Rule 6-1 basically deals with a player's own responsibility to apply the rules correctly regarding himself anyway.

So where exactly does the rules get into putting this kind of onus on "fellow competitors" to "protect the field" to that kind of extent?

For a reasonable analogy to this situation from a decision from the match play rule (Rule 2) I'd point you to decision 2-5/1 (Player's Obligation Re: Lodging Claim)! It certainly seems to me that perhaps the Stroke Play rule (Rule 3) should have something similar within it when it comes to a player's responsibility to overlook a rules infraction if there's no agreement to waive a rule of golf (for some kind of advantage), as well as what all any "fellow competitor's" responsibilities are to "protect the field" which is basically not that much more than a player protecting his own rights vs his opponent in match play.

I don't think the responsibility of a "fellow competitor  to "protect the field" should become that burdensome is what I'm saying and if it appears to in a situation such as that one then the "committee" (Rule 33) has every right and good reason under rule 33-7 to "waived of modified" a penalty of disqualification.

Firstly, that poor "fellow competitor" who wasn't even in Murphy's group apparently found out what the real impact of "Murphy's Law" (if something can go wrong it will) is all about, in my opinion. And secondly, I think that committee went too far! I can't see anything within the rules of golf (not including the fact that there may be something addressing this in the Senior Tour's "Conditions of competiton" (Rule 33-1) that I'm not aware of about "Player's Responsibilities" to "protect the field") that specifically addresses this particular incident.

The morale of that incident as far as that player was concerned probably would be "It's better and a helluva lot safer to just keep your mouth shut period and don't even ask a question of a rules official about some other player."

At the very least it would seem pretty obvious for that rules official to have asked that player why he was asking about practice putting on the course!!
« Last Edit: November 03, 2003, 06:12:17 AM by TEPaul »

Brad Klein

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Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2003, 08:05:40 AM »
Goodness, this thread is starting to look like it's fit only for lawyers and engineers. I'm all for golf by the rules, but there's such a thing as going so far that you break the spirit of the game. What if we view a videotape of the 1963 Masters and find a flaw with Nicklaus somewhere. Report that, too, and have him DQ'd?

I think alleged rules violations after the round or that are phoned in from home TV viewers should never be allowed. As for Dawson, well, may he play the rest of his golf with lawyers.

JohnV

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2003, 08:08:30 AM »
Tom, the player in question saw Murphy practicing on the course before the restart.  While the round was still in progress and when it would have been possible to save Murphy from being DQ'ed he asked a tour official if it was ok to do what Murphy had done without telling him that he had seen someone do it.  The official told him no.   He chose to keep quiet about the incident until he saw Murphy in the locker room the next day.  He told Bob that what he did was not allowed.  Bob then went to the Tour Staff and turned himself in for signing an incorrect score card.  The tour staff then determined what had happened and DQ'ed the other player.

He deserved to get DQ'ed because he caused another player to get DQ'ed by knowingly keeping silent about what he had seen until it was too late to save Murphy.  Rule 33-7 covers this completely, there is no need for additional regulations.  The Committee can impose a penalty of DQ for any reason and what he did seems like reason enough to me.  He cost Murphy a substantial amount of money by doing what he did and got the correct punishment.

A different incident points out the difference between this and an accidental cause of a DQ.  Nick Faldo was leading an event in Asia a few years ago.  During the final round, another player was in a bunker and had some stones around.  He asked a rules official if the local rule allowing him to move the stones was in force and was told no.  He said that was interesting because he had seen Faldo do it two days earlier.  Faldo was asked about it, admitted it and was DQ'ed while leading the tournament.  The other player wasn't penalized because he didn't know it was a violation at the time he saw Faldo do it (or before Faldo's card was signed.)

rgkeller

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2003, 08:34:38 AM »

I think alleged rules violations after the round or that are phoned in from home TV viewers should never be allowed. As for Dawson, well, may he play the rest of his golf with lawyers.

Dawson, the next day, did notify Toledo of the possible rules violation. Evidently Toledo did not see any need to notify the rules officials. Dawson did.

There are many instances of honorable golfers "DQing themselves" after signing a card and and after discovering a rules violation. Toledo's name is not yet among those honorable golfers.


JohnV

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2003, 08:53:19 AM »
What if we view a videotape of the 1963 Masters and find a flaw with Nicklaus somewhere. Report that, too, and have him DQ'd?

Jack is probably safe.  Rule 34-1b says, "... no penalty shall be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed."  There are 4 exceptions:

(i) Violation of Rule 1-3 (agreement to waive the rules.)
(ii) Returned a score card which had too low a handicap and the player knew it before the competition was closed
(iii) Returned a score for any hole which was lower than taken for any reason other than failing to include a penalty that he didn't know he had incurred
(iv) Knew, before the competition was closed, that he had been in breach of any Rule for which the prescribed penalty is disqualification.

I suppose that if you were looking at the tape and found that he took six shots on a hole when he signed for a 5 he could be DQ'ed, but somehow I doubt that happened.

John_Conley

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Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2003, 09:57:25 AM »
I think alleged rules violations...phoned in from home TV viewers should never be allowed.

Brad:

Anyone who has read Tin Cup Dreams, the compelling biography of Esteban Toledo, will be following this story closely.  What an inspiration.  Anyway, my big problem with the "I phoned in the violation" crowd is that not every player has someone watching their every move.  It tends to be those in contention in the later rounds.  Who really sees Heath Slocum on Thursday?

I see no way that the Tour is worse off if they don't respond to phoned-in violations from Barcalounger rules officials.  If the violations are significant, they'll be addressed on course.  These seem to be so petty.  So what if Duffy tapped down his plug on a soft fairway?

TEPaul

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2003, 10:38:20 AM »
JohnV:

I understand the particulars regarding the Murphy incident, I believe, at least I do insofar as how you've described them. I don't agree with that ruling or that interpretation, though, as far as it goes and as far as it's been explained to me.

What is it about what that player did that leads you or the Senior Tour to assume that he withheld that information about Murphy so that it may have hurt Murphy and led to his disqualification later? For that to be obvious he would've had to have encouraged Murphy to go and disqualify himself. What if he didn't understand that Murphy would do that? What if he didn't understand that Murphy should do that? That player obviously didn't understand the concept of "protecting the field" in stroke play tournament play to the extent that he understood that he was going to get himself disqualified too---that much must be obvious.

What if he didn't understand the ramifications of this type of thing and waited to go to Murphy until after the tournament was closed? At that point there likely wouldn't have been disqualification or penalty for anyone, including Murphy as the rules time limit would've basically expired (although even that isn't compeletely cut and dried clear within the rules!).

What if what this player thought he was doing WAS protecting Murphy from penalty or disqualification by going to him privately the way he did? If that were so what would be the difference between what he did and keeping his mouth completely shut in the first place about the whole incident, including asking the official about it? There would be virtually no difference.

I'd certainly assume that the "committee" would have to be damned certain that that player was witholding information in such a way as to constitute "agreement between players to give one or both of them an advantage of some kind" and this incident completely fails to make that clear in any way, at least to me. Just the opposite in fact.

I think that "committee" perhaps should've looked a bit deeper into the "Priniciples Behind the Rules of Golf" and by that I mean Tuft's book which the USGA tends to look to for clarification on principles with various rules "incidents" and perhaps they may have noticed this mention relating to this type of incident;

"It should be noted in the examples given and generally speaking that in stroke play the Rules are devised to protect the interests of absent competitors in the field without relying upon the fellow competitor to do so. Nevertheless, it is presumed that an alert and fair minded fellow competitor will protect the interests of absent competitors by requiring the player to play in accordance with the Rules."
Tufts, p. 27.

You and I do a lot of officiating and we know the value put on the particular meanings of particular words in a rules context regarding the application of rules decisions. Maybe you and the Senior Tour put a different meaning and value to some words than I do but the key word in that principle to me is "presumed" and that is a long way in this regard from "required" which essentially is what the rules of golf is about if they're going to put any player in the position of being disqualified.

And I agree with what Brad Klein seems to have said above about people calling up and reporting rules violations. The rules of golf should do something to tighten that procedure up where something like that should at least only be allowed regarding a player who has unknowingly violated a rule of golf BEFORE that time has expired when he still has the ability to do something about it!!

Jeff Goldman

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Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2003, 10:50:52 AM »
What kind of infraction was involved the first time Dawson reported a rules infraction after the round?

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2003, 10:52:08 AM »
TomP- In this specific situation with Toledo, because Dawson (and Stefan) were not alert to his taking an improper drop, once the hole was over, so should the situation?

Wouldn't the stipulation that a violation of this magnitude (as long as no advantage is taken) is uncallable after the completion of the hole and would put an end to the call-ins too?(unless thay have speed dial)

Michael Moore

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Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2003, 11:02:35 AM »
Mr. Goldman -

I believe that was a bad drop as well, by Brandel Chamblee.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Jeff Goldman

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Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2003, 11:09:54 AM »
Hmmm.  Sort of reminds me of a famous evidence case from law school.  Guy wakes up and finds a dead girl on his living room couch - someone must have broken in.  The cops couldn't find any real evidence against the guy (except the dead person on his couch), and so didn't bring charges.  A while later, the same thing happens.  Another dead girl on the couch, supposedly found by the guy after he wakes up one morning.  Said my law professor:  "What's the guy going to say to the cops this time?  "Boy, I hate it when that happens!?"

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.

rgkeller

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2003, 12:33:44 PM »
What kind of infraction was involved the first time Dawson reported a rules infraction after the round?

Jeff Goldman

Chamblee PLACED his ball after a second drop rolled more than one club length - but less than the Rules' state TWO club lengths.  Chamblee clearly got an advantage by being able to place his ball in the rough rather than take the consequences of a drop.

rgkeller

Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2003, 12:40:46 PM »
TomP- In this specific situation with Toledo, because Dawson (and Stefan) were not alert to his taking an improper drop, once the hole was over, so should the situation?

Wouldn't the stipulation that a violation of this magnitude (as long as no advantage is taken) is uncallable after the completion of the hole and would put an end to the call-ins too?(unless thay have speed dial)

The Game requires that the player call his own penalties and that the player be knowledgable about the rules. Adding a statute of limitations on rules violations WITHIN the tournament time frame only rewards the dishonest and the ignorant.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2003, 12:42:13 PM by rgkeller »

Kevin_Reilly

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Re:Dawson again waits to report rules infraction
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2003, 12:59:45 PM »
Here is a listing of notable DQ's from the past, including many mentioned above (though the Price DQ at Sun City did not mention the timing of Frost's notification):

http://www.golftoday.co.uk/news/yeartodate/news00/disqualifications.html
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

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