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Michael Wolf

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2020, 05:39:15 PM »
Crystal will be an interesting case. It has to be among the highest ranked courses in the world where a large majority of the play was previously with carts? Maybe Sand Hills also?


Michael

Daryl David

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2020, 07:16:13 PM »
No caddies allowed in CA or WA for time being. I assume it will be re-evaluated as other restrictions are lifted.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2020, 08:33:50 PM »
Sven:


Out of curiosity, how many other courses in Oregon have caddie programs?  Do the clubs in Portland have them?  Or did they not make a rule about it because it's not really a thing there?

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2020, 08:35:38 PM »
Crystal will be an interesting case. It has to be among the highest ranked courses in the world where a large majority of the play was previously with carts? Maybe Sand Hills also?



Yeah, sometimes I think my guests are the only ones walking.  My guess is there might be more play on the front nine than the back.  That hill from 10 green to 12 tee is not for everyone.

Pete_Pittock

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2020, 08:36:09 PM »
Sven:


Out of curiosity, how many other courses in Oregon have caddie programs?  Do the clubs in Portland have them?  Or did they not make a rule about it because it's not really a thing there?
pretty much the top tier or two of privates
Columbia Edgewater
Oswego Lake   
Portland GC
Pumpkin Ridge-Witch Hollow
Riverside
Willamette Valley CC
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 08:42:54 PM by Pete_Pittock »

Edward Glidewell

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2020, 09:11:50 PM »
As the nation has learned, Covid-19 is primarily transmitted by touch, whether it be touching an infected individual or a surface on which the virus is present.  Although the virus can be transmitted by aspiration, the vast majority of cases involve transmission by an individual touching something with their hands and then touching their face, from where the virus enters the body.


Where are you getting this information? I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know, but everything I've read from experts has suggested they think touch transmission, while possible, is unlikely and the vast majority of transmission comes from aspiration (hence why social distancing is so important).
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 09:34:23 PM by Edward Glidewell »

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2020, 09:33:18 PM »
Tom:


I don’t have an answer for you on that question.  There are also caddies in Bend in addition to the clubs notes above and Bandon.  I’d venture there are more caddies in Oregon than in Washington.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Nigel Islam

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2020, 10:04:30 PM »


As the nation has learned, Covid-19 is primarily transmitted by touch, whether it be touching an infected individual or a surface on which the virus is present.  Although the virus can be transmitted by aspiration, the vast majority of cases involve transmission by an individual touching something with their hands and then touching their face, from where the virus enters the body.


While it can be theoretically transmitted by touch, it is primarily transmitted by respiratory droplets. It’s why when we put people on ventilators we have to use N95 masks and goggles regardless of their Covid status now.

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2020, 10:34:21 PM »
Nigel:


Is it your understanding that most of the cases are the result of breathing in the virus, or from the hands to face theory?  Has the thinking on this changed over the last month?


The advice we received was based on the premise that proper social distancing was being maintained.  Does that affect the answers to the questions above?


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Nigel Islam

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2020, 10:59:38 PM »
Nigel:


Is it your understanding that most of the cases are the result of breathing in the virus, or from the hands to face theory?  Has the thinking on this changed over the last month?


The advice we received was based on the premise that proper social distancing was being maintained.  Does that affect the answers to the questions above?


Sven


The highest risk for transmitting the virus is from aerosols. Intubation, Endoscopy, or Bronchoscopy of patients is very high risk to the person doing the procedure. Now if you cough on your hand and shakes someone’s hand then they touch their mucus membranes it can be transmitted. It lives on surfaces, that we know. We just don’t know the threshold for infection. It’s higher than influenza, but I’ve been around this for a month and we’ve had only a few medical personnel test positive through work exposures. These are the true warriors though the nurses, therapists, phlebotomists, and techs that are at the highest risk, not guys like me who spend fifteen minutes sitting a several feet away. I’ve had a couple patients (not people of interest) stick their hand out to shake, and I was picturing Fauci just having the big one in front of my face.

The whole idea behind masks and the six foot distancing is that a cough or a sneeze travels up to six feet.

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2020, 11:22:36 PM »
Interesting.  We were told the greatest benefit of masks (for the average person going about their daily life) is that it prevents you from touching your face.


All the best to you and everyone you work with.  You folks are the real heroes in this.


And obviously there are different concerns when you're working in close proximity to patients.  The advice we received was being tailored to a golf course environment. 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Nigel Islam

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2020, 12:14:24 AM »
Interesting.  We were told the greatest benefit of masks (for the average person going about their daily life) is that it prevents you from touching your face.


All the best to you and everyone you work with.  You folks are the real heroes in this.


And obviously there are different concerns when you're working in close proximity to patients.  The advice we received was being tailored to a golf course environment.


Sven,


I agree with your premise that once you leave the clubhouse any risk of Covid is minimal. Especially if you forgo a cart. It’s transmitted in the same way the influenza virus, the six other Coronavirus species, rhinovirus or any other respiratory viruses. It’s just some of the unique properties such as it being novel and likely a little more contagious than the others have led us to where we are. I think golf certainly has the advantage of being played outside in wide open spaces. While I realize the basic mask is the unfortunately the new norm at work, I’m hopeful not to have to wear one on a golf course.

mike_beene

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2020, 12:20:03 AM »
Maridoe had a fundraising tournament for its caddies this week with some local college players, local tour pros and even Tony Romo. Ironically you had to push a cart or carry.

Mark Chaplin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2020, 04:28:43 AM »
The death knell for caddies in the UK came with the advent of the now ubiquitous electric trolley.


Caddies now exist only where there are American and Japanese tourists to hire them. Even retired colonels use a Motocaddy these days.


Duncan half of my rounds last year were for British based players, around 40% were Americans and the remainder European with one Japanese player. This year was due to be a good one, next year who knows.
Cave Nil Vino

Jeff Schley

  • Total Karma: -4
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2020, 08:51:39 AM »
I don't see Caddies being in danger for the long term, if waiters in restaurants, massage therapists, barbers, etc. can make a living in that proximity caddies should be no different. 

I personally enjoy a caddie quite a bit, from hunting for my certain occasional wayward shots, to advice on the hole, and certainly reading the putts, I am happy to support the profession as I see them adding value for my rounds. Also for those riders a forecaddie is a shared service that also is well worth the 25-35 bucks each. My own nephew was going to caddie this year at one of the clubs I am a member and think it a great opportunity for him in his adolescent development.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Mark Mammel

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2020, 10:31:09 PM »
Back to Ian's first question- the role of caddies has changed dramatically. I play a club with a long history of caddies. At White Bear Yacht Club we've had caddies since 1912, and from 1916 to 1936 Tom Vardon trained them. We still have a cadie program- though not this season. We have kids, 12-18 with the occasional olde caddie. But we have preferred kids since the Evans Scholorship program started decades ago. We usually have 1 or Evans scholars a year, though we are a small club. This is possibly the best scholarship around, as you get 4 years room & board at an associated land-grant college without having to avoid an education  due to athletic requirements (I would point out that kids with golf scholarships tend to actually get real degrees). In any case, when I joined in 1989, caddies or a cart were required from 8am - 4pm. We now require caddies from 8am-1pm - if available. Interestingly, for at least a few years after I joined there were kids ready to go in the afternoon. Now I was young and cheap, so I wasn't sure that was so great. But now, basically there are no caddies after 9am unless you've reserved one ( and with coronavirus, as of now no caddies are planned this year). Where is this going? We don't have as many kids that want to do two rounds, though our program will survive because of the Evans Scholarship. I believe we are in the minority among private clubs; public tracks not named Pebble Beach or Pinehurst or Bandon Dunes or- you know what I mean- no caddies there. So I would argue that the traditional caddie we remember from the Ouimet era is gone. Caddies are gone from the traditional game, the game you grow up with.  I was a caddie as a kid, I;ve taken lots of caddies, but the truth is when I play, I know my limitations. Caddies can be fun, and if I were doing the loner golf trip a caddie is a great companion. But, you know, I play with my friends. Why do I want to hire another critic?   As to current times, I can report from the Monterey Peninsula that golf at Cypress Point, the Preserve and Tehama have continued even though Monterey County has declared golf  "non-essential." Only Cypress Point has a strong caddie program. Of course, you really can't walk the other two. No caddies at Cypress now. They are even allowing push carts! Members only.
   So I think caddies are becoming an anachronism, preserved at clubs and destinations where people want to pay for a companion. Which is great! But as a presence in the game as it grows for tomorrow, caddies are a non-factor.
So much golf to play, so little time....

Mark

corey miller

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2020, 02:37:56 PM »



I just hope in my area the final word on caddies will be determined by clubs, and players and the caddies themselves not legislators in some far off state capitol. 

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2020, 02:56:09 PM »
   So I think caddies are becoming an anachronism, preserved at clubs and destinations where people want to pay for a companion. Which is great! But as a presence in the game as it grows for tomorrow, caddies are a non-factor.


Too simplistic. 


There are places that many people wouldn't be able to enjoy if caddies weren't available.


If anything, right now, the focus on walking might make caddies more important than ever.



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Adam G

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2020, 04:03:18 PM »
Our club is planning to encourage forecaddies for the time being as traditional bag carrying will not be allowed. This will keep the caddies who work full time in season employed and speed up play to compensate for increased spacing between groups on the course. I think it's an interesting idea at least in the short run.

JC Jones

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2020, 06:49:22 PM »
Sylvies Ranch was ahead of its time.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Niall C

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2020, 07:49:07 AM »

There are places that many people wouldn't be able to enjoy if caddies weren't available.

Sven

I find that an interesting comment. In what way would the courses not be enjoyable without a caddy, and secondly, does that suggest a failure in the course design that you need a caddy to make it enjoyable ?

Niall

Bernie Bell

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2020, 08:35:49 AM »
If you could source a bunch of Clicgears this week, you could make a handsome profit in the NY Metro area.  Push carts are now "allowed," but apparently scarcer than medical equipment, to the dismay of the well-heeled.  Can't even get one from your concierge doctor.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 09:07:13 AM by Bernie Bell »

archie_struthers

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2020, 08:37:30 AM »
 ::) ;)




Tough one here. It's been bandied about on this site for years without much change in the discourse. I'm thinking at the finest and /or wealthiest clubs there will be a desire to have them for years to come. A trip to Secession, Pine Valley, Seminole, Bandon it's part and parcel to the experience. It's a special occasion for most of us to go there and we don't mind paying  a little extra for the experience.


It's a shame that more clubs wouldn't be interested in forecaddies, particularly young ones that could be taught to stay out front and find stray tee shots, rake bunkers and move carts to expedite speed of play. If this service was economical, say between $8-12 per player many might choose this an an option. It's a far cry from $100 per bag.


This would expose the game to a new generation and perhaps teach them some basic people skills. Given the nature of many golfers it could lead to potential jobs in the future and expose them to some real world experiences that they seem to be missing. Not bad exercise either. The perils are obvious, legal issues and over protective parents.

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2020, 08:52:44 AM »
Any job paying over $20/hr and you will not keep the adults out. Nor should you in this environment. I'm not so interested in raising some fellow members kid either. He already has a step daddy in the old house to take him to the park.

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2020, 09:21:13 AM »

Sven

I find that an interesting comment. In what way would the courses not be enjoyable without a caddy, and secondly, does that suggest a failure in the course design that you need a caddy to make it enjoyable ?

Niall


Its less about the course and more about the golfer. 


Some places are walking only.  There are plenty of people who can walk the course but not walk the course and carry their own bag.  Especially when you're doing it multiple days in a row, sometimes 36 a day.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross