The future of caddies?

[Bernie Bell]

Sven

I find that an interesting comment. In what way would the courses not be enjoyable without a caddy, and secondly, does that suggest a failure in the course design that you need a caddy to make it enjoyable ?

Niall

Its less about the course and more about the golfer. 


Some places are walking only.  There are plenty of people who can walk the course but not walk the course and carry their own bag.  Especially when you're doing it multiple days in a row, sometimes 36 a day.

That's interesting, I read your initial comment entirely differently.  I thought you were referring to destination courses where the golfer may only ever see the course once or twice.  Bandon, Pinehurst, etc.  I think the question is different at a home club that the member has played hundreds or thousands of times.  I wonder about the Venn diagram of the set of golfers who cannot push their own bag 18 holes with the set of golfers walking 36.  I wouldn't think there would be that much overlap.

[V. Kmetz]

After hearing updates all weekend as golf opened up the last 10 days, I'm unmoved that the future will be anything very much different from the recent past. In fact, at private clubs (I cannot speak for resorts), the program relationship may net an improvement after this restrictive time. I feel justified in that statement when I learned that:

• Individual members of the club I work most frequently started a GoFund Me page raising over 65k in two weeks on the backs of 165 contributors. They stepped in when a divided Board dickered over the budgetary line for such a relief fund, and the Pro appealed that the red tape had to be cut.  This fund will be distributed over approximately 25 adult caddies (I will not be among them) the 2 Asst Pros (who coming out the off-season are still on UEI), and a few outside seasonal staff. And this club is not some behemoth of great reputation or age. I can't verify, but the Pro told me that he doesn't know of one area club not engaged in some kind of effort like this.
• There are two proposals forwarded for the usage of caddies as health and events warrant...one involves driving a cart for multiple walking players/forecaddying for cart players, carrying one's own rake, marking locations, calling yardages, filling divots. The other involves stagger-stationing caddies on all individual holes...2 on the 4s and 5s...one at the green on the 3s... again: locating, measuring, raking, divot-filling from social distance as you hand off the group to the next caddie... Each of these are imperfect and do not address that 25% of players who wish to walk, but want nothing to do with the labor of the bag carried or pulled otherwise, yet the obvious desire to retain and give work for the adult caddies is the central context.
• Many of the members are encountering the unexpected difficulties of transporting one's own bag; of its unnecessary weight; its baubles and/or its poor design; its terrible strap, and it's compelling inspiration to pull clubs incorrectly and have to walk back when it happens. They are finding that pull carts tip and lean; get snagged in ground bumps and soft spots; are often forgotten as play went the other direction; cannot be summoned back with any speed; that the ground they pull/push on is not Florida tarmac flat, but hilly and canted.
• With social distancing procedures, like one /"one household" per cart, in place, 48 carts is not enough on beautiful days like this last weekend, fro all the people who cannot/do not walk of all stripes, yet the expense of additional lease and the question of their storage is vexing. In any case, you are not going to see very many ladies play if their rump is not one of those in those 48 carts; if you think 57 year old "Myra Horowitz" is going to sling her Hoofer over her shoulder or power a hand cart, when she hasn't even pushed a cart grocery shopping in 30 years, you don't know what you're talking about.
• The first days of resuming play (10 days ago) have been so strange, unfamiliar and irregular for these folks. A good deal of that is of course what any place opening safely is experiencing... the usual camaraderies of the day are subordinate to the conditions... people don't joke and back-slap... no one wants to throw the balls up for partners...tee times are given for slots and people have complained (already) that the group ahead or behind them is not doing something socially/touch distant... These first rounds are "empty".. the conversations and out loud focus of the golfer on his match between players, absent caddies, are subordinate to playing safely and I was told the whole thing--from the absent valet, to no locker room, to no breakfast, to waitign in your car in the appointed hour to toting your bag up to the tee, to identifying your playing partners, to the conduct of the rounds --  was hollow, perfunctory.
• Someone mentioned the Clicgears?  That was almost dead-on arrival.  I heard it was demoed at one nearby club two weeks ago, the pro was not impressed and when they saw the purchase/lease agreement terms, the clay target didn't get 10 feet off the ground.

One can place their own Venn diagram on all of that...


Again, I do not know the condition of resort or places with a merely perfunctory caddie program that was slip-sliding before this season, but the evidence I have taken in from a vast network of this greatest cluster of Caddie Programs in the world is that private club members are cognizant and dedicated to sustaining their programs during this time as best they can; and want to get back to normal (as in all things) as quickly and safely as possible.


As a final note: none, not one initiative, not one dollar of contribution, not one story, not one thing, nor one part of the real conversation is about youth/boy caddying.  It's the caddies that have been associated with their private clubs,  5... 10...15 ...20...30....(37, me) years that have been the focus of empathy and concern and action.  A few posters have made this a Trojan Horse to express their long standing disdain/ambivalence/schadenfraude for the professional, adult caddie; it is pitiful; and I'm rather encouraged that so very few posters actually have skin in this game that their comments come with the credibility of the any fan on the sidelines.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bernie:


I work at Bandon.


I am referring to destination courses.  The average trip out here is along the lines of 18/36/36/18.  For a lot of people, no caddies means they don't go on the trip.


It is a common to hear things like this:


"I've never played so much golf in a short period of time."


"I can't imagine doing this and having to carry my own bag."


It all comes down to what I said earlier.  There is no one size fits all answer to the caddie question.  Especially at walking-only destination resorts where people are trying to play as much golf as possible in a short period of time.


And unlike the goats, we can actually dole out some advice along the way.


Sven

[John Kavanaugh]

It may be time to tone down the anti-semitism when caddies refer to difficult members. Are fat drunk Irishmen always a party?

[Bernie Bell]

Sven, I understand and agree.  So in answer to the OP's question, my take is that at US destination courses including Bandon, no this is not the end for caddies, at least as far as demand is concerned.  I wonder under what conditions the caddies will feel safe, but I'm sure it can be managed.  At the high end East Coast privates, I don't know.  Guess we'll find out. 

V., at my club there's a strong group of women who walk and carry, and play as much as any of the men.  Hilly course too.  There are (were) ~60-80 Clicgears hanging in the bag room.  The "absent valet" is a way of life, as "hollow and perfunctory" as that may seem.  Park our own cars, clean our own shoes, carry our own bags.  Somehow we survive and soldier on.  As Sly Stone said, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

[Rick Shefchik]

How did people make the transition from horses to cars? People must have loved their horses. Was there a single trigger point?

This is hardly definitive, but probably a good insight into why America was ready to make the transition from horse to car. As described by David McCullough in his biography of the Wright Brothers, in 1904 a man named Amos Ives Root used to drive 400 miles round-trip from his home in northeast Ohio to Dayton to watch the brothers fly their plane in a field. He loved gadgets of all kind, including his motorcar [as quoted by McCullough]:



"While I like horses in a certain way, I do not enjoy caring for them. I do not like the smell of the stables. I do not like to be obliged to clean a horse every morning, and I do not like to hitch one up in winter....It takes time to hitch up a horse; but the auto is ready to start off in an instant. It is never tired; it gets there quicker than any horse can possibly do....at $350, an Oldsmobile costs less than a horse and carriage."


Substituting "caddie" for "horse" in the previous quote is not a wholly apt analogy, but some of the reasoning is the same.

[Sven Nilsen]

Trust me Rick, our caddie shack smells just fine.  We even have sanitizing wipes for the massage chair.

[John Kavanaugh]

Rick,


Thanks for the quote. I thought it was the Model T but just looked it up and at $825 it wasn't as cheap as I thought.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Let me bring this to a more poignant focus, I hope.


Let’s assume destination resorts like Bandon, Pinehurst, Streamsong, etc. maintain their caddy cultures. Let’s also assume that that “top 100” courses or the very elite private courses will also see caddies for the foreseeable future.


I guess I’m really talking about courses all over the country that have caddy programs yet whose members have seen the following in the past 15 years:


1. Lightweight stand bags that can actually fit all of your stuff.
2. Fantastic new trollies that glide on the ground.
3. Range finders
4. GPS watches
5. No need to take out flag anymore.


So, the “average member” now says...”hey, my clubs are easy to carry or use in a trolly, I have exact yardage to the pin, no need to tend or pull flag anymore....so, the only reason I really NEED a caddy is to read my putts....?...or clean my clubs, or manage me around the course...?..”


Having been a caddy at one of these clubs as a kid and playing at a club with a rich caddy culture (but not a top 100), it may be an issue long term as, out of 100 or so caddies, maybe only a handful could even offer anything other than a read out of their range finder and something about uphill or downhill.


So, my question then turns to:


In a time of economic distress and proximity sensitivity, what will become of many caddy programs?


The caddy master at our club usually gives me the “B Caddy” and i help train him or her. Plus, I really only need a “mule” anyway and don’t seek their input at all.


There are also those who believe that caddies make rounds take longer.
When a foursome has two caddies who are double- bagging, players are always waiting for the caddy unless it is an Honor or elite caddy.


Last year at Sand Valley, we were behind groups who literally could not do a thing without their caddies input. Debate it all you want, when you hire a caddy ata resort, pay $120+ per bag, you use them.


Sure, locating balls and keeping the group moving...I get that.


My point from the OP is: Post-Covid, with all these issues facing many clubs and members, will caddy programs be casualties?

[John Kavanaugh]

With reduced seating in restaurants will we need valet parking? We can't fire everyone in our lives just because we can.

[Ian Mackenzie]

With reduced seating in restaurants will we need valet parking? We can't fire everyone in our lives just because we can.

No, but I think another bi product of C19 will be the rise of the US minimum wage to $15 as too many people now on unemployment are making more than they did while working. Broken model.


That will syphon many high and college school kids who saw caddying as the highest source of possible income.


I may be wrong as summer jobs and internships vanish, perhaps caddying will flourish.


I’m not advocating one position or the other, but merely curious what others think.

[Mark_Fine]

It is all a matter is when will people be comfortable socializing again.  When that will be who knows?  I can’t even go see my Mom let alone think about taking a caddie.  I just saw United is canceling 90% of their flights through June and suggested most of their staff look for other jobs as it is going to be awhile. Crazy if you think about it.  You have to get people to these destinations and that is not easy.  Not everyone has a private plane.  If you drive you have to remember that most restrooms are still not open to the public at gas stations or any food places that are open, if you would want to use them.  I don’t know about where everyone else is here but in PA you can’t get tested unless you are pretty sick.  They just don’t have the test kits despite what is being said by some about their availability.  If a quick on site test was widely available for both golfer and caddie that was accurate that would help immensely but right now front line health care workers at least in Pennsylvania can’t even get tested 

[John Kavanaugh]

I've been dreaming of going out to a really great steakhouse in the next couple of weeks. It's interesting how many employees could be eliminated that are not essential to my enjoyment.


Valet - Seriously, stay out of my car.
Maitre D - Text me my seat assignment and I will show up on time and go straight to my seat.
Sommelier - Bring me the bottle I pick and lots of it. Oh, I'll open the bottle and pour my own.
Water dude - Never like this up sell specialist anyway.
Waiting Team - I need one waiter to bring the food that I have pre-ordered on my app.
Buss people - The same waiter can take a plate away as they bring another.
Toilet dude - Are you kidding me?

Wow, that's a damn shame.

[Tim Martin]

I've been dreaming of going out to a really great steakhouse in the next couple of weeks. It's interesting how many employees could be eliminated that are not essential to my enjoyment.


Valet - Seriously, stay out of my car.
Maitre D - Text me my seat assignment and I will show up on time and go straight to my seat.
Sommelier - Bring me the bottle I pick and lots of it. Oh, I'll open the bottle and pour my own.
Water dude - Never like this up sell specialist anyway.
Waiting Team - I need one waiter to bring the food that I have pre-ordered on my app.
Buss people - The same waiter can take a plate away as they bring another.
Toilet dude - Are you kidding me?

Wow, that's a damn shame.

I hate the water scam. It’s an automatic that the server will roll his/her eyes when they ask if you want “tap”. It’s designed to make you feel cheap if you don’t opt for an $11 bottle of San Pellegrino.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I've been dreaming of going out to a really great steakhouse in the next couple of weeks. It's interesting how many employees could be eliminated that are not essential to my enjoyment.


Valet - Seriously, stay out of my car.
Maitre D - Text me my seat assignment and I will show up on time and go straight to my seat.
Sommelier - Bring me the bottle I pick and lots of it. Oh, I'll open the bottle and pour my own.
Water dude - Never like this up sell specialist anyway.
Waiting Team - I need one waiter to bring the food that I have pre-ordered on my app.
Buss people - The same waiter can take a plate away as they bring another.
Toilet dude - Are you kidding me?

Wow, that's a damn shame.

Trolling during COVID-19: alive, well and thriving.


what you have just outlined is EATING AT HOME and you, in fact, are doing that right now.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm pointing out the difficulties facing the service industry which includes caddies. I don't know how we can save everyone. Or, how we pick and choose which non essential service jobs to save. I use a sommelier far more ofter than I use a caddie. Which one does the world need more? Kind of embarrassing to even answer don't you think?

[Ian Mackenzie]

I'm pointing out the difficulties facing the service industry which includes caddies. I don't know how we can save everyone. Or, how we pick and choose which non essential service jobs to save. I use a sommelier far more ofter than I use a caddie. Which one does the world need more? Kind of embarrassing to even answer don't you think?

Did you ever sign the sommelier's "chit" and leave a tip for him?
Yup...thought so.


Back under the bridge now, JK...;-)


But, it's also my point kind of: golfers who eat regularly at restaurants with sommeliers will continue to use caddies. They have the $$ and belong to high-end clubs.


It's the ones that dont eat at high end restaurants, have seen their wages cut 15%, their savings slashed by 25%, but their club bill is the same.


So, what breaks? What gets cut? Given the rangefinder and the aweome trolley and now the flag issue and the possibility of the caddy being "asymptomatic"...;-)...the golfer passes on the caddy.


That's the MARKET dictating terms, and my concern is for the future of the caddy market, not your gout, JK.

[jeffwarne]

Like every segment of society, there will be adjustments, especially if/when the economic downturn lingers.
While people have the time now to play golf, how many will have the means after months even years of a socially distanced economy.


Those who want/need caddies will find a way to take one and/or support their program even without taking a caddie.
Others who never really needed or wanted a caddie, or find golf now a financial reach will not.


I do see a transitioning role for caddies in at least the short run. perhaps a caddie carrying a rake, fixing divots and ball marks, helping with yardages from a socially distanced safe distance (I don't buy the whole mythical 6 foot thing-15-20 seems a better number to me and is completely practical)


I can also envision a scenario where a caddie pulls or pushes a cart and only touches the handle, and the player ONLY touches the clubs.


But, it will have everything to do with the economy, especially as "mandatory" caddies go away for safety reasons, which may give way to economi creasons.
This will affect many middle tier and upper tier clubs that don't have traditionally strong caddie programs.It also may give pause to grown caddies who have have carved out an off the grid living with no safety net,and a difficuly entry back onto the grid.

[Thomas Dai]

Firstly, my sympathy to those in the caddy and related business during these difficult virus times.
During the period where social distancing is in place, or should be in place, would it be useful at courses where caddies are the norm for someone who normally works as a bag carrying caddy to act as a fore-caddy on each par-4and par-5?
This would hopefully allow for errant tee etc shots to be found by someone near the landing area without several folks in close proximity to one another doing the looking. Pace of play might even increase too.
And if some form of personnel rotation were practiced then quite a few usual caddies could still earn some money by acting as fore-caddies with the cost being added to the greenfee and thus split between all players.
Just a thought.
Atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

I've been dreaming of going out to a really great steakhouse in the next couple of weeks. It's interesting how many employees could be eliminated that are not essential to my enjoyment.


Valet - Seriously, stay out of my car.
Maitre D - Text me my seat assignment and I will show up on time and go straight to my seat.
Sommelier - Bring me the bottle I pick and lots of it. Oh, I'll open the bottle and pour my own.
Water dude - Never like this up sell specialist anyway.
Waiting Team - I need one waiter to bring the food that I have pre-ordered on my app.
Buss people - The same waiter can take a plate away as they bring another.
Toilet dude - Are you kidding me?

Wow, that's a damn shame.

Welcome to dining out in my world!

Even in decent restaurants I've seldom had to deal with more than one person. Maybe two if the owner comes over to say hello.

I've seen valet parking in movies. I didn't think it really existed!

[Kalen Braley]

Duncan,

The 99% isn't dining at those kinds of restaurants very often.. I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've been to a place like that myself.  While I appreciate the concern for those workers, the countless other service jobs are likely to have a much bigger impact on the economy.  Retail, grocery, casual dining, fast food, ma and pa stores, gas stations, etc.

As for caddying, it was a tough sell for the vast majority of places before all this happened, I suspect it will only get worse, even if the high end resorts and top 100 privates figure something out.

[Mark Chaplin]

Duncan I remember playing with a GCAer at his fine club in the USA, he told me it cost him $50 to get from the gate to the first tee. Wonderful service but lots of outstretched hands.

[BHoover]

I just read the upcoming Rory/DJ vs Rickie/Wolf match at Seminole will be played without caddies. The players will be carrying their own bags. It won’t happen, but I would love to see golfers play tournaments without caddies and carrying their own bags going forward.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I just read the upcoming Rory/DJ vs Rickie/Wolf match at Seminole will be played without caddies. The players will be carrying their own bags. It won’t happen, but I would love to see golfers play tournaments without caddies and carrying their own bags going forward.

Agree 100%.
But, also with a mandate to play in under 4 hours.


Trollies ok. Lots of stuff to put in the bag.


If (pro) golfers truly want to be considered "athletes", then strap on your tool belt and show us!


Gives new meaning to the back 9 on Sunday when carrying the bag over 3.5 days starts to be a factor and that extra conditioning - like a tennis/hockey/football player - could make the difference in the 5th set, or OT period...;-)

[MKrohn]

I've been dreaming of going out to a really great steakhouse in the next couple of weeks. It's interesting how many employees could be eliminated that are not essential to my enjoyment.


Valet - Seriously, stay out of my car.
Maitre D - Text me my seat assignment and I will show up on time and go straight to my seat.
Sommelier - Bring me the bottle I pick and lots of it. Oh, I'll open the bottle and pour my own.
Water dude - Never like this up sell specialist anyway.
Waiting Team - I need one waiter to bring the food that I have pre-ordered on my app.
Buss people - The same waiter can take a plate away as they bring another.
Toilet dude - Are you kidding me?

Wow, that's a damn shame.

Welcome to dining out in my world!

Even in decent restaurants I've seldom had to deal with more than one person. Maybe two if the owner comes over to say hello.

I've seen valet parking in movies. I didn't think it really existed!

I remember doing some economics course half a lifetime ago and it was called disguised unemployment, unfortunately its out of the shadows.