I am thinking about re-opening the golf course tomorrow

[Thomas Dai]

Over the last couple of years the SGU has been slagged-off herein and now the EGU aren’t looking so good either.
Do we need these organisations any more?
Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

Over the last couple of years the SGU has been slagged-off herein and now the EGU aren’t looking so good either.
Do we need these organisations any more?
Atb

No, is the simple answer, though it is more complicated. They are run by the very people that have ruined the game. With a world handicap system I think you could access this from anywhere now without the need for a £23.50 annual ponce. Most of the money is spent on team golf. The registration to EGU should be voluntary and if you want to play golf without a handicap you do not have to pay the fee.

[Mark Pearce]

Adrian,  I am not licensed to practice in the UK although my partners in our London office are qualified.  It seems that if you are confused as to the state of the law, rather than speculate on an internet site filled by architecture enthusiasts, a prudent business operator would call his/her lawyer.  From afar, i would not rely on any pronouncement by a golf association that does not have any governmental authority.  I have been the President of such an association in my state in the US and we make the limits of our "power" clear.  But if you have doubts, ask someone who is qualified and whose interests align with yours.  Unqualified opinions about matters of architectural taste are harmless and fun to debate.  Arguing about what a policy should be is the stuff that makes for a democracy.  Interpreting law is serious business which is why some of us devote our educations and professional life to that pursuit. I suggest that you find the right adviser.  It appears to be a pretty simple job.

The problem with lawyers is they can't understand the laws themselves. That is why there are court cases. There is no clarity with this situation at all. The Government have said you can now drive up to 30 minutes into the countryside to take exercise for up to 4 hours, which is a material change from you can't drive to a place for exercise and only up to 1 hour. on that basis you can drive to the golf club and presumably walk the course (as some MPs have been advocating). I can't see any reason why you could not hit a golf ball under those guidelines. So, the Government appear to have created an area where it is unclear, they are the law. EG have f* all to do with it other than advise. The only thing that is clear is it is not clear.

Again, you are confusing the law (the Regulations) with guidance (up to 4 hours, up to an hour, etc.)  The only legal issue here is whether a golf course is an "outdoor sports court" and is, therefore, required by law to be shut.  There is some lack of clarity in the law.  But that is inevitable with new law, particularly when that law is made hurriedly.  The challenge for legislators is to consider every possible question of interpretation when drafting laws.  That simply isn't possible.  Which is why law, like almost anything requiring thought (including golf course design), develops and evolves.

[Jon Wiggett]

Yes you can drive a good distance and walk up to 4 hours but that does not change the fact that the law as it stands requires golf clubs to be closed. If you can show where it says that golf courses can now open then please do Adrian but just because you would like it to be otherwise does not alter the clear fact that golf courses cannot legally be open at the present time.

[SL_Solow]

Adrian,


You are getting appropriate interpretations from Mark.  There are a lot of reasons for lawsuits, the vast majority are disputes over facts, not over law.  Your suggestion that you don't understand certain differences in interpretation appears to be frustration with the regulations, not a lack of understanding.  There exists plenty of legislation and regulation that many of us disagree with but that doesn't make it unclear or unenforceable.  If you don't like it, lobby to change it.  But don't pretend that you don't understand.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,


You are getting appropriate interpretations from Mark.  There are a lot of reasons for lawsuits, the vast majority are disputes over facts, not over law.  Your suggestion that you don't understand certain differences in interpretation appear to be frustration with the regulations, not a lack of understanding.  There exists plenty of legislation and regulation that many of us disagree with but that doesn't make it unclear or unenforceable.  If you don't like it, lobby to change it.  But don't pretend that you don't understand.

That is not true.But shops can still remain open.[/size]The PM  made the unprecedented announcement this evening ordering all venues to shut their doors as the Government tries to battle the outbreak.[/size]
[/size]Cinemas, theatres and galleries will also close in a desperate bid to save British lives as the UK death toll rose to 177 today.[/size]

[/size]The full list of sectors affected is:[/color][/size]Food and drink venues for consumption on-site, such as restaurants and cafes
[/color]

• Drinking establishments, including pubs, bars, nightclubs

• Entertainment venues, including cinemas, theatres, concert halls, and bingo halls

• Museums and galleries

• Spas, wellness centres and massage parlours

• Casinos and betting shops

• All indoor leisure and sports facilities, including gyms

• [/size]The measures will remain in place for at least a month to strengthen social distancing and protect Brits from the deadly virus.[/color]
  [/size]Restaurants will still be allowed to do takeaways, while supermarkets are unlikely to be affected at this stage.[/size]
  [/size]Mr Johnson said: "Clearly, there are licencing arrangements which will make it relatively simple to do should that be necessary.[/color]
  
  [/size]"We will enforce it strictly, but in reality everybody can see the imperative of doing what is necessary, of protecting our NHS and saving lives."[/color]
  [/size]The government lockdown will be reviewed after the two-week shutdown ends.[/color]
  [/size][/color]
  [/size]I am not reading this for my own wants. I have read this fairly as I and many others have. A golf course is not on this list. We shut because England Golf told us to shut. Some people feel they advised wrongly and therefore should be sued. Until a few days ago you could not play golf unless you lived on site or lived next door, we have all continued to play golf here not thinking we were doing anything wrong because we were not driving on the road (banned) to get here. It was 'driving to get here' that caused the problem. That restriction has gone.[/color]

[Mark Pearce]

Adrian,


What is that from?  Because it isn't the regulation.  The law is set out here: [size=78%]https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/contents/made[/size] Everything else is noise.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I read that (very quickly) that on that basis yes you can play golf.


A golf course is not a sports court. It is not a playground. Golf is exercise, which is allowed. You play golf, if on your own, there is no way you can contract or pass Covid 19.


What you obviously can't have is a gathering, on that basis Golf can meet that test of not creating a gathering. Most have seemed to agree if I play with the Clubhouse manager as we live on site we are doing nothing wrong, only 1 person JW thought I should not out of respect for those who have died.


We have to get back to normality asap. When you consider the  % of problem created by going to a supermarket or front line workers, to play golf as a 2 ball safe distancing is a creating a tiny potential of the passing of this virus.


I can see a sports pitch could be ruled as a golf course, but that is not the wording used, by contrary running is a sport, is that on a pitch, that is allowed.


I still maintain it is not clear and two lawyers will make a mix of this. I think a good lawyer could make a good enough case that playing golf CAN meet the tests set out by the current government legislation that it is not likely to help the spread of Covid-19 and therefore can be classed as an accepted exercise.

[SL_Solow]

Adrian,


Have you consulted counsel?  Can you identify the source of the document you reprinted?.. Consider me curious as I have no dog in this fight

[Thomas Dai]

The law is set out here: [size=78%]https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/contents/made[/size]

Thanks for the link Mark.

Some general asides and curiosities about it or related to it (although not ones I necessarily expect Mark to answer) although don’t go interpretation my words as meaning I reckon courses should or shouldn’t be open.

For example, this ‘law’ document covers England, ie not presumably Scotland, Wales and NIre. I hope the paperwork for those other three areas of GB&NI is identical otherwise ......!

The ‘laws’ effective date is 1:00pm on Thurs 26th March, which is 3 days after Boris’s Mon 23rd shutdown speech and is also 3 days after when the EGU issued their ‘instruction’ or ‘advice’ or whatever one wishes to call it. The EGU text published a few hours after Boris’s speech is still referenced within the EGU’s website. It can be found here - https://www.englandgolf.org/clubs-and-courses-must-close-covid-19-update/ . It could be viewed that the EGU interpreted the situation as the EGU wished it to be interpreted, which I guess refers in some ways to Adrian’s comment in a post above about the EGU acting in a Pope like manner.

It should be noted that the front page of the EGU website still states very clearly “Courses, clubs and facilities must remain closed”. ‘Advice’ or ‘instruction’?

The ‘law’ (of England) as per the link refers to “no person may participate in a gathering in a public place of more than two people”. Playing as a 2-ball then rather just a single! Although maybe a 3-ball or 4-ball as the ‘law’ link does state that more than 2 people can be involved if they’re all from the same household.

Whilst the Government haven’t as far as I’m aware mentioned the word golf at all the EGU seem to have taken it upon themselves to issue statements which were not only written before the ‘law’ (in England) but are written in such a way as to suggest that the words are an instruction, not advice, an instruction.

I believe, and I’m happy to be corrected, that the EGU issued their 23rd March statement before the SGU issued one, before the WGU issued one, and before BIGGA, the greenkeepers association issued one. Was there any discussion and cross-referral or did someone, some organisation that perhaps receives its funding from golf club members, Jump the gun and what does that then say for the credibility of that organisation down the line?

Atb

[Sean_A]

I can fully understand clubs following the advice of EGU because generally, clubs do not retain their own legal counsel except to carry out specific situational instructions. The Secs probably passef the EGU recommendation to the governing bodies and bam, courses are closed. In late March, which club would have decided to engage legal opinion to determine the exact position of golf clubs under the new law? That would have been a PR disaster...that I dare say a significant percentage of memberships would not have supported. It didn't really matter what the legal position was, the optics were more important. Besides, it is usually best to err on the side of caution during pandemics...no?

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

In an odd turn of events my wife just booked an appointment at a hair salon in Florida for May 2nd.

[Mark Pearce]

The law is not the same in each of Wales and Scotland but it isn't much different.


Trying to read anything into the three days between the announcement of the lock down and the passing of the regulations, other than that it takes time to write legislation is daft.  As this whole debate shows, writing legislation is difficult.


Suggesting impropriety or malfeasance on behalf of a sport's governing body as it tried to respond to an unprecedented crisis, simply because, in retrospect, that reaction may not have been perfect, is equally daft.


As Macron has been willing to admit (don't hold your breath for Trump or Johnson to do the same) governments have made mistakes in handling this crisis.  It appears ours may have made some very serious ones.  I, for one, do not hold the EGU to the same standards I hold an elected government to.  There is confusion here but given the clear discrepancies between statements issued by ministers and the police, are we really pointing a finger at the EGU, whose advice has, at least, been clear?

[John Kavanaugh]

Given the wealth of information available the only mistakes we make are our own. No one would ever admit to be only as smart as the dumbest elected official.

[Thomas Dai]

Virus’s don’t follow national or semi-national boundaries. The virus is the same virus either side of the border at Gretna Green or the River Wye or the Irish Sea or wherever else and although some might wish it were not GB&NI is one country and in a situation like this individual, separate sporting and related organisations shouldn’t be giving different/confusing advice. Same story by all for all.
If folks examine what the EGU, SGU, GUW have said, well they’ve all said something different as have other related bodies although some, like the GCMA, hide theirs behind log-ins.
Then consider that the ‘law’ as referred to above only applies to England. Is the ‘law’ in Scotland, Wales and NIreland identical, not “isn’t much different”, identical? The virus is identical, the ‘law’, the ‘instructions’, the ‘advice’ ought to be identical, for as even those herein who earlier refused to countenance any lack of clarify are now admitting, there is confusion.
Atb

[Ulrich Mayring]

Even if the law were worded in a way that it would technically not rule out playing golf, it is very clear that in spirit it wants to achieve just that. We have a nice word for that in German: "Gestaltungsmissbrauch". It translates to something like "abuse of law" and it is illegal in Germany. Just recently the Cum Ex managers have gone to jail, even though technically they did nothing wrong. But the judgment was that they must have been fully aware that this loophole in the tax law wasn't meant to be there and that it should be obvious to anyone that you cannot make money out of nothing.

I don't know if it is legal in the UK to exploit obvious loopholes in the law. But I do think that this would qualify as a very obvious loophole, if all sports locations have to close except golf courses.

[Mark Pearce]

Thomas, I really don't get your problem.  Adrian's frustration I understand and sympathise with.  But you're raging around this thread like some 21st century Don Quixote, charging at windmills with no apparent reason.  Go for a walk, breathe the air, and be grateful you don't have Adrian's problems.  Then calm down and ask yourself whether all this rage aimed at people trying to do their best and, actually, doing a really difficult job reasonably well, is really justified.  Either that, or get into the EGU, or become a parliamentary draftsman and prove you can do better.

[Jon Wiggett]

It really isn't difficult. The law is very clear. Golf courses come under sports pitches and as such it is illegal for them to be open. Adrian might be able to play if the land the course is on is either his or he is the leaseholder but it appears he is neither. I believe Adrian knows exactly what the law is but just doesn't like it. He has claimed the police said the course could open and also that courses are not covered yet despite all the bluster the fact that he has neither produced the permission from the police and that his course is still closed says it all.


For me this thread has run its course.

[Adrian_Stiff]

It really isn't difficult. The law is very clear. Golf courses come under sports pitches and as such it is illegal for them to be open. Adrian might be able to play if the land the course is on is either his or he is the leaseholder but it appears he is neither. I believe Adrian knows exactly what the law is but just doesn't like it. He has claimed the police said the course could open and also that courses are not covered yet despite all the bluster the fact that he has neither produced the permission from the police and that his course is still closed says it all.


For me this thread has run its course.

Your usual bollocks Jon. There is only one reason why we have not opened and that is we have taken the opportunity to overseed the greens in the 'gap'. Sports Court is the English wording according to the official link. Mark Pearce who is a lawyer conceeds the lack of clarity. Only you remain blind.
My main point is ...there is no reason why we can't play golf with good safety practices at the moment now that you can drive into the countryside.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for your kind words and advice Mark. Much appreciated.
atb

[Colin Macqueen]

JK,
Yer wife's getting a perm!! That's a hair-raising idea!


Cheers Col

[Adrian_Stiff]

In Jersey, which although United Kingdom does have its own laws, you can't be open for a Playground, Sports Court or SPORTS PITCH.

Golf courses are listed separately and ARE OPEN FOR GOLFING provide you practice good safety measures.

[Jon Wiggett]

In Jersey, which although United Kingdom does have its own laws, you can't be open for a Playground, Sports Court or SPORTS PITCH.

Golf courses are listed separately and ARE OPEN FOR GOLFING provide you practice good safety measures.

Adrian,


once again you are making up things to try and back up your discredited point of view. The Channel Islands are not part of the UK 


If you want to carry on clutching at straws then go ahead and open up.

[Adrian_Stiff]

In Jersey, which although United Kingdom does have its own laws, you can't be open for a Playground, Sports Court or SPORTS PITCH.

Golf courses are listed separately and ARE OPEN FOR GOLFING provide you practice good safety measures.

Adrian,


once again you are making up things to try and back up your discredited point of view. The Channel Islands are not part of the UK 


If you want to carry on clutching at straws then go ahead and open up.

We might May 1st. I am in talks with enforcement now.

[Paul Dolton]

I thought the club's on the channel Islands came under the Hampshire Golf Union.


Does this make them members of England Golf?