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V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Perfect Golf Hole -
« on: April 16, 2020, 08:54:34 PM »

5th Hole:       276    265    yds   (not telling you the course)
           



This course is a Raynor Banks...perhaps the most singular or unique... and of the decidedly-softened template styles found, this one roughly approximates a "Cape;" but at this distance, the more aggressive decision has greater and realistic chances for a 2, while only really sloppy play will cause the big numbers[size=78%] [/size]





The essence of the hole stems from the tee shot decision...a 175-190yd  "lay back" short of a outside corner bunker, leaving an awkward 60-80 yard pitch to rumpled green complex canted away from you....



and a view back to the tee from nearly this same spot



...Or the more aggressively you hit, the more the green complex and its features comes into focus...
(***though it's at the bottom of a slope, the 30 yds of approach ground in front of the green itself is lively firm and fast, making both lofted and running shots a fun and amusing decision)... btw, long left can be lost ball death if it gets past a hidden bunker below the green on that side.



and if you really catch it flush...threading the rocky slope high right and the pond along the left... you are rewarded with a straight-on view of the small bulbous green. When pins are set in the rear, it is akin to the judgement needed in Skee-Ball...


This is THE perfect hole... I saw a 3w lip out for an ace this summer, I myself have made a couple of 2s, and seen a handful over the years, almost every class of player (just about) can have a go at 3, a 4 can feel like a disappointment and the scratch has to be damn careful getting up close to the green or he will end up with a frustrating short pitch that blows him to 5 or worse... It also has more possible strategies to achieve the best of those numbers than can be imagined... Two 8/7-irons works as well as a Driver and putter...a 4 iron and gap wedge works as does a 3w and a hooded 7 iron 30 yard running chip.


Like the best holes, this beauty makes you a better player... in the first case, once you've seen it on its course, you're eager to encounter it, it breeds a sense of fun and zest, not fear... any lack of confidence in, or execution of a, poor drive in the pond or fanned out to the right is on your own recognizance because the conservative strategy of iron-iron/wedge or hybrid wedge was always available to you...


Second, upon repeat plays, the hole sort of "teaches" you how to play it within your skill set... big hitters who want to go for the green-side learn where to cleave that miss...strategy-players comprehend how to keep 4 in sight throughout the hole.


In addition, the amount of awkward chips, judgement pitches, careful putts and surgical "touch" plays over times provides great practice and inspires imagination to the short game.


Lastly, the hole is at the most distant corner of the course, a beautiful enchanted glen, so right in its spot, in such a lovely remove; it can make you wish to linger and spend the whole of the day between the tee and the green, endlessly trying for combinations of mastery


"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2020, 09:36:01 PM »
 :)
That little pot (or is it quiche pan) bunker, ~80 yards out, seems just right -- especially in combination with that green-side bunker long and left.
Thanks. I've been staring at the overhead/photos for a long while now.
It's very satisfying indeed when golf architecture makes such good sense, but doesn't belabour the point.
No attempt to 'mystify' or self-congratulate here.     

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2020, 10:12:47 PM »
Does the pond hug the entire left side of that hole? It's hard to tell from the overhead view, as it appears to end where the treeline extends closer to the green. In some respects the challenge of making it on the green in one reminds me of the 10th an Rivieria, only minus the water flanking the left side of that hole. That said, there are so many things that can go wrong by going for the green in one than right, IMHO. It takes a darn near perfect drive to get to and keep the ball on the green. The tee shot requires working the ball right to left to even have a chance of reaching the green in one. If your natural driver shot shape is left to right, like mine, you have to bring the water and trees into play and hope to carry them in order to have a shot of getting the ball on the green. I don't like those odds. If the bunker on the right is only 80 yds. from the green I'm taking an iron out and placing my tee-shot short of the bunker in the fat part of the fairway and having a 100 - 110 yd. second shot, which is totally in my wheelhouse. It's a very smartly designed hole with all sorts of potential outcomes even if playing it safe. If I could work the ball right to left accurately and on command I'd definitely go for the green in one on certain occasions. But given the state of my game, I'm playing safe and taking what the hole gives me and hoping to escape with a par, as that green looks wicked as well making a two-putt not an automatic.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2020, 10:38:11 PM »
Holy smokes MB... that paragraph had the same enthusiasm that I have for the thing.


To answer your question, that left pond ducks away/ends at about 215 yards... that's the carry if you were going directly over it from the 276 tee.


But there's other features you response recalls...


1. A reliable cut (if bravely started over the water) actually works well on this hole as its shape is received against the hard right left slope down to the water and still gets a forward, straight-ish kick towards the front edge.


2. There are endless ways to conceive it and one's best approach that day...entirely based on your confidence and feel in that playing. A strategy one day that gives you a tap-in 3 might result in a double next time, if one of the first two strokes is not executed precisely...


3. The hole isn''t "do or die" (2 or 20) but its more like "Do" or "Learn a Lesson"


cheers  vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2020, 04:23:03 AM »
Thanks for the thread VK.
Nice idea to focus a discussion on one hole.
It certainly appears an interesting example, as you mention seems like options aplenty, but would there be even more options if there was more grass cut to fairway height on both sides of the hole and also around the green? Just curious.
Atb

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2020, 08:48:34 AM »
BTW, I LOVE high risk/reward short par 4's like this. Given the hazards, trees, slight dogleg left, the severity of the green and features around it, it presents the golfer a lot of different options in playing the hole. Great hole and great design! Would love to do an in-depth review on other holes that create unique challenges and multiple ways of playing them successfully and unsuccessfully, as to me that's great architecture when the route to get the ball into the cup isn't cut and dry and forces the player to consider their strategy off the tee in lieu of how they want to play their second and or third shots. I don't mean to leave one-shot holes out of this conversation either, as there is strategy aplenty to be found there as well, but I like analyzing great individual holes from perhaps lesser known clubs andcourses that aren't discussed ad nauseaum here and breaking down the various ways to play them successfully and debating what the architect had in mind when designing it. That's the fun of these exercises - especially when there isn't much else to do in the states right now.


On a separate note, what course is this hole found? Have you given that away yet or are you waiting for someone to guess? Based on the type of trees in the images provided I'm going to say geographically it's somewhere in the Northeast, Mid-Atlantic or Midwest. There's my guess. LOL!
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2020, 09:22:03 AM »
Beautiful, man.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2020, 09:56:05 AM »
BTW, I LOVE high risk/reward short par 4's like this. Given the hazards, trees, slight dogleg left, the severity of the green and features around it, it presents the golfer a lot of different options in playing the hole. Great hole and great design! Would love to do an in-depth review on other holes that create unique challenges and multiple ways of playing them successfully and unsuccessfully, as to me that's great architecture when the route to get the ball into the cup isn't cut and dry and forces the player to consider their strategy off the tee in lieu of how they want to play their second and or third shots. I don't mean to leave one-shot holes out of this conversation either, as there is strategy aplenty to be found there as well, but I like analyzing great individual holes from perhaps lesser known clubs andcourses that aren't discussed ad nauseaum here and breaking down the various ways to play them successfully and debating what the architect had in mind when designing it. That's the fun of these exercises - especially when there isn't much else to do in the states right now.

On a separate note, what course is this hole found? Have you given that away yet or are you waiting for someone to guess? Based on the type of trees in the images provided I'm going to say geographically it's somewhere in the Northeast, Mid-Atlantic or Midwest. There's my guess. LOL!


I'll leave it out there for a few more posts...it's fun to guess.... but it is a Raynor-Banks, it is more than 100 years old and it's in the Northeast; it's my 1b favorite course to play, and my 3rd favorite to caddy upon. Truly a special place.


If life will bear it, I'll try to put up a few more of what I think (*and maybe we all think) is a perfect hole...


...One more note of perfection here is that standing on the tee, even though Rory Tiger and Phil might hit only a 3 or 4 iron or hybrid up to the green complex, you have as equal a chance in the playing of this hole as they do... that 3 or 4 iron does not guarantee them 2 or 3 (or if really bad, not even 4), but you can match a tour player on an individual hole like this, which is one non-exclusive criteria I like to consider for perfection.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2020, 10:19:59 AM »
Love the hole. It is the kind of hole I love to play. It rewards the thinking player who can marry ability and daring. Is it in NJ?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2020, 10:28:20 AM »
Do those with wider playing experience (than me) find this type of design on many modern courses? A design that combines: 
A call for a draw with a driver/wood, if you're going for it.
A fairway bunker placed precisely where those playing it safe/as a two shotter are aiming.
A green that is canted/runs away from the line of play.
A bunker long and left on that primary line that tests distance control.


To me, this golf hole is beautiful because it's true.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2020, 10:38:07 AM »
Love the hole. It is the kind of hole I love to play. It rewards the thinking player who can marry ability and daring. Is it in NJ?


It is not in NJ; it is in NY.  TW... many, many times after caddying all Monday afternoon, I have had the ranger drive me out to that far corner of the course where I play it 3 or 4x, chip and putt and head in when the sun goes down and the summer gnats come out.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Greg Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2020, 12:46:03 PM »
I have figured out what club, but I confess I cheated with a little research.  Never would have gotten it otherwise, and I thought I knew a little about Raynor.  Guess I don't.

This is the best hole ever, BTW!
O fools!  who drudge from morn til night
And dream your way of life is wise,
Come hither!  prove a happier plight,
The golfer lives in Paradise!                      

John Somerville, The Ballade of the Links at Rye (1898)

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2020, 01:21:00 PM »


I have figured out what club, but I confess I cheated with a little research.  Never would have gotten it otherwise, and I thought I knew a little about Raynor.  Guess I don't.

This is the best hole ever, BTW!


This course is the hidden gem of all hidden gems... I rarely speak the name in public.


While the 5th is the "most" perfect... there's 3 or 4 others that are close to this aesthetic simplicity and amusing challenge (11, 15, 16).
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2020, 01:30:12 PM »
That is easily the best hole on a not so great Raynor that is in the neighborhood of some really great courses.  Though  this club has one hell of a membership!

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2020, 03:53:25 PM »
Do those with wider playing experience (than me) find this type of design on many modern courses? A design that combines: 
A call for a draw with a driver/wood, if you're going for it.
A fairway bunker placed precisely where those playing it safe/as a two shotter are aiming.
A green that is canted/runs away from the line of play.
A bunker long and left on that primary line that tests distance control.

To me, this golf hole is beautiful because it's true.


Well put...your comments remind me to add another virtue or two...
1. It's crafted at a distance that always has, still does, and may continue to be perfect for all but a dubbing novice...the guy who kills it is going to be forever tempted to make an uh-oh...the shorter player who doesn't hit a drive but 150 or so has got a fun shot at 3 and a very realistic 4.


2. Your comment on a R-L orientation for the "go" hitter makes me detail that actually, the "hot draw" that carries 220-230 can catch a wicked hard left "kick" + increase and shoot right on through the left side of the green/approach into a nasty recovery spot; even though I don't really carry more than 210-ish anymore (which challeneges the water) I still am mindful of a low hooking burner that could get out of hand when I try the "near green" strategy, even if I beat the water. Long story short, I usually try a fade over the water when I'm going for it and feeling bold... (and the wind's at my back... and I need a 3 on my card...and I just deposited my relief funds...and it's a Wednesday...) ::)


cheers   vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2021, 02:19:51 AM »
Just consolidating the first three, with IV about to be posted...
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2021, 09:18:40 AM »
Looks like another great hole asking to be ruined by a green side fan.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2021, 09:45:11 AM »
Vin-If it’s the course I think I didn’t know Banks had a hand in the design as the opening was seemingly five or six years prior to him getting involved with Raynor. Without disclosing the name is it’s membership synonymous with corporate titans? Thanks.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2021, 09:46:38 AM »
VK,
I applaud your write-ups!  Extremely well done  :D  I am not sure, however, I would call this one perfect.  Maybe some one made this point already but (didn't Mackenzie say a perfect hole should be able to be played with a putter)  :D  Plus there will likely be many lost balls but it is full of options and strategy.  I personally love holes like this.
Mark

Dan_Callahan

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Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2021, 10:13:11 AM »
It's interesting ... other than the yardage, that hole has a ton of similarities visually to the 4th at Yale.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2021, 10:34:09 AM »
Great thread, VK! I know the course but will let others figure it out.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2021, 11:03:05 AM »
Lol Bill... this first one gave people pause, but was readily discovered by sleuths...


I doubt ANYONE will get the recent IV, even though there are occasional clues and previous digital exhaust of mine over the years...(2013, I think)
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Kyle Harris

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Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2021, 12:05:59 PM »
Where is the forward tee and does it still have the forced carry?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2021, 12:35:41 PM »
Where is the forward tee and does it still have the forced carry?


About 20-25 yds downrange (so a 235-240 yds total) and yes, an 85-90 yard across the short pond. I don't know if this has been amended or augmented in the ongoing JCU reno-storation.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Perfect Golf Hole -
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2021, 03:25:44 AM »
VK--


This place is a hidden gem.  I played it about 10-15 times from 1973 thru 1994, and lived about 0.6-0.7 miles from the 5th tee (as the crow flies).  Must confess to having never understood its brilliance back then, but always felt a sense of frustration (for lack of a better term) that none of the supposed "keys to the vault" seemed to work on it...which brought doubt to mind about any and every decision on the tee. I now understand that to be the primary job of an architect.


Funny story about my first time at the club.  We arrived around noon on a Friday in August 1973 10 days before Labor Day (long story why I know exact days), and my host asked the locker room attendant if any members were around.  The reply was "Mr. XXXXXX, you are the first member here since last Sunday."  Different feel than I had playing munis in Queens 10 years before.


Thanks for a wonderful and brilliant dissection of the hole.  When did you caddy there?