Cheap and cheerful: What makes it cheerful?

[Sean_A]

Yep, £80 for Golspie is a no go for me. Brora is 95 quid!

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Yep, £80 for Golspie is a no go for me. Brora is 95 quid!

These numbers are staggering.  Yet full membership at Golspie is £380 and country membership £300. 

[Scott Warren]

Wow. That’s pricey. I played Golspie as a member’s guest, but that was £10 in May 2010, which led me to think the visitor fee was in the £30 ballpark.


£80 is the same money as Leven, which I would suggest is a higher-quality course in a more expensive neighbourhood. It came to mind as cheap and cheerful before I remembered the £50 we paid was a twilight rate.

[Mark Pearce]

Anstruther is cheap and cheerful.  Certainly cheap, not great golf but fun.


I'm surprised Sean hasn't mentioned Alnmouth Village.  Certainly cheap, wonderful golf, great spot on the beach and a homely clubhouse which is all that is needed.

[Mark Pearce]

£80 is the same money as Leven, which I would suggest is a higher-quality course in a more expensive neighbourhood. It came to mind as cheap and cheerful before I remembered the £50 we paid was a twilight rate.

I don't see Leven as cheerful.  Don't get me wrong, I really like the course (and wish it was in better condition) but it's not a cheerful course.  It's a dour, Scots course.  A would be Carnoustie, rather than a want to be Prestwick. 

[Thomas Dai]

Hopefully, fingers and toes crossed, this vile virus situation will permit Buda to go ahead this year. If so, or even if it’s postponed, folks who haven’t been already will get to experience golf of this nature at Kington/Welshpool. And should they wish at other courses not that far away such as Llandrindod Wells, Church Stretton, Minchinhampton Old, Cleeve Cloud, Painswick maybe even the rural 9-holers at Machynlleth or Knighton.
Fingers and toes crossed.
And those who’ve already experienced similar type but a seaside version at the likes of Mulranny or Perranporth or Alnmouth Village will be able to add inland and hilltop versions to their portfolio of courses played. And there are many others out there too.

Atb

[Bernie Bell]

If Scott is closest, the course/club has all of the essentials without the excesses that inflate cost.  What are the essentials?  If there is a golf "hierarchy of needs," what is it?  I would start with a minimum of 9 holes in the ground, with at least some "standard" par 4s, if not a par 5.  Beyond that, what is essential and what is excess?  For Ally's snob, what are the essentials required for them to "really like it," not simply scoff, even though it lacks the touches that golfers of such fine discernment appreciate and would otherwise seek out?

[Ken Moum]

I think y'all are looking WAY too high on the golf course food chain to get at the roots of cheerful, and cheap.


I grew up on a nine-hole course in northern Minnesota where the clubhouse was the old farmhouse that was on the property when the course was built. On men's night, each of the teams in the men's league took turns cooking steak dinner for the rest of the folks.


On Friday night, a couple's "league" took over the course, and at least once a year my dad would cook his specialty, flank steak teriyaki for the group.


The greenkeeper's wife was a heck of a cook and would sometimes be hired as the "chef" for certain events.


There was a closeness to it that was completely lost when a new clubhouse was built and there was a paid staff to do all the things that members formerly did.


Fast forward about 40 years and have a look at Rugby CC in North Dakota. Nine holes, modest clubhouse run by one person most of the time.  On men's night a local woman of German descent would come in an set up a buffet of sides and dessert. (her ethnic heritage is important because she made German-style portato salad).  The guy would pick a steak out of refrigerator by the kitchen and take them outside to cook on the grill.


It's not much of golf course by GCA standards, but the people and the club are the epitome of cheerful golf.

[Tom_Doak]

The numbers attached to "cheap" here are pretty outdated, because so many of us grew up in a different era.


There aren't many sporting events anymore that one can attend for 30 quid.


I do understand that incomes have not kept pace with this inflation, but still, there is no way to build a golf course and charge £30 for it nowadays.  The only way you get to that price is if:


(a)  It's in a rural area or
(b)  It's no good


So that there is not a sufficient number of people lined up to pay more for it, AND IF


(c)  The current owner has no capital investment to pay off, AND
(d)  They aren't close enough to a more famous course for that one to inflate the prices in the neighborhood.




The current visitor fees at Brora and Golspie are based entirely on capitalism.  The only thing they have to do with the cost of running the place is that taking £80 green fees raises expectations, so you have to put on a bit more staff and a bit more fertilizer -- but that came after the price increase, not before.


P.S.  Sorry not to be more cheerful about the reality.

[Sean_A]

The numbers attached to "cheap" here are pretty outdated, because so many of us grew up in a different era.


There aren't many sporting events anymore that one can attend for 30 quid.


I do understand that incomes have not kept pace with this inflation, but still, there is no way to build a golf course and charge £30 for it nowadays.  The only way you get to that price is if:


(a)  It's in a rural area or
(b)  It's no good


So that there is not a sufficient number of people lined up to pay more for it, AND IF

(c)  The current owner has no capital investment to pay off, AND
(d)  They aren't close enough to a more famous course for that one to inflate the prices in the neighborhood.

The current visitor fees at Brora and Golspie are based entirely on capitalism.  The only thing they have to do with the cost of running the place is that taking £80 green fees raises expectations, so you have to put on a bit more staff and a bit more fertilizer -- but that came after the price increase, not before.

P.S.  Sorry not to be more cheerful about the reality.

Who said folks are relying on cheap and cheerful new builds? Anyway, there are barriers to new build cheap and cheerful... so what? Designers and owners become more creative...its an age old story. You may decry the idea of £40 green fees offering a good product, but a lot of golfers ain't interested in paying £80 for Brora or Golspie because they ain't that good. It's especially circumspect when a few years ago the green fee was half. On the other hand, I hope 80 quid expectations doesn't lead to charmless presentation and endless improvements. Being good courses for a reasonable price with lowered expectations were the reasons these courses became well known.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

It’s a good question though. What new courses have been built in GB&I in the last 20 years that are both good fun and charge under 50 quid?


The only cheap and good fun / cheerful courses are older ones that had an established model before the age of commercial golf took over.

[Peter Pallotta]

There's nothing inherent/necessary in a pricing model, whether for existing courses or new builds. For decades owners charged (or planned to charge, in the case of new builds) as much as they possibly could, i.e. whatever the market would bear. So what it comes down to, it seems to me, is this: that since about the mid 80s, and through various trends in design and financing (from the Nicklaus-residential to the Keiser-resort), there was little interest in "cheap and cheerful"; in fact, the spirit of the age and the related 'messaging' and advertising/media coverage and value systems all leaned in the completely opposite direction. To play golf was to be able to afford to play golf; to pick golf courses was to make bucket lists and to notch Top 100s. But now, in this environment, and for the first time in almost 40 years, the value of "cheap and cheerful" may be coming to the fore.     

[jeffwarne]

The numbers attached to "cheap" here are pretty outdated, because so many of us grew up in a different era.


There aren't many sporting events anymore that one can attend for 30 quid.


I do understand that incomes have not kept pace with this inflation, but still, there is no way to build a golf course and charge £30 for it nowadays.  The only way you get to that price is if:


(a)  It's in a rural area or
(b)  It's no good


So that there is not a sufficient number of people lined up to pay more for it, AND IF

(c)  The current owner has no capital investment to pay off, AND
(d)  They aren't close enough to a more famous course for that one to inflate the prices in the neighborhood.

The current visitor fees at Brora and Golspie are based entirely on capitalism.  The only thing they have to do with the cost of running the place is that taking £80 green fees raises expectations, so you have to put on a bit more staff and a bit more fertilizer -- but that came after the price increase, not before.

P.S.  Sorry not to be more cheerful about the reality.

Who said folks are relying on cheap and cheerful new builds? Anyway, there are barriers to new build cheap and cheerful... so what? Designers and owners become more creative...its an age old story. You may decry the idea of £40 green fees offering a good product, but a lot of golfers ain't interested in paying £80 for Brora or Golspie because they ain't that good. It's especially circumspect when a few years ago the green fee was half. On the other hand, I hope 80 quid expectations doesn't lead to charmless presentation and endless improvements. Being good courses for a reasonable price with lowered expectations were the reasons these courses became well known.

Ciao

30 quid may be a low bar, but you can play Aiken golf club for $25 and Midland Valley down the street for $28.
Heck they sold 3 year memberships for $200 in hopes of selling a bunch of cart fees...
You can never really tell overseas as the prices always seem to be lower than the website-for instance I paid $25 per person at Norhwest GC though their website says 60 quid for non GUI memebrs-35 for GUI members.
Dunfanaghy the same.
perhaps I need to stop posting about Donegal...




Sadly, this will be a huge topic in the coming years if/when our current crisis abates...

[mike_malone]

My favorite in this category is Centerton in NJ. $25 in the winter is cheap. As for cheerful I like the little quirks it has. 2 is short but has a bunker 20 yards short of the green right in the center and the green slopes front to back. Later there’s a par five with a gate of trees about 50 yards from the green.

[Tom_Doak]

30 quid may be a low bar, but you can play Aiken golf club for $25 and Midland Valley down the street for $28.
Heck the sold 3 year memberships for $200 in holes of selling a bunch of cart fees...
You can never really tell overseas as the prices always seem to be lower than the website-for instance I paid $25 per person at Norhwest GC though their website says 60 quid for non GUI memebrs-35 for GUI members.
Dunfanaghy the same.
perhaps I need to stop posting about Donegal...

Jeff:


That's part of what I was trying to say.  There are still cheap courses, but they only exist because of market inefficiencies . . . a good course that's so remote that they don't think they can charge a lot.  But the price goes up as soon as people "discover" it.

[Tom_Doak]

Who said folks are relying on cheap and cheerful new builds? Anyway, there are barriers to new build cheap and cheerful... so what? Designers and owners become more creative...its an age old story. You may decry the idea of £40 green fees offering a good product, but a lot of golfers ain't interested in paying £80 for Brora or Golspie because they ain't that good. It's especially circumspect when a few years ago the green fee was half. On the other hand, I hope 80 quid expectations doesn't lead to charmless presentation and endless improvements. Being good courses for a reasonable price with lowered expectations were the reasons these courses became well known.

Sean:


See my reply to Jeff W, above.


What I'm saying is that most of the really good "cheap and cheerful" courses you are describing are likely to go away over time as they are discovered -- like Brora and Golspie.


And there is no way a new supply can take their place -- the only room for creativity is for architects to work for peanuts and build courses without irrigation.  I stopped doing that once I realized that if I was successful, the owner would just raise the price.


So, you should be careful talking up these cheap and cheerful places, because you are literally talking the price, up.

[Bernie Bell]

In my county, the cheapest left standing are county courses.  Their pricing varies by day, time and demand.  They're shut down currently, so I can't look it up precisely.  But if memory serves you can play most if not all of them for about $42 on a weekend.  It is my understanding that they set prices to cover costs with some contingency, not to maximize revenue.  In any event, they've survived for decades paying their own way, so it can be done at that price point, at least until now.  But in private hands, the land for most of the courses would be too valuable not to sell.  Maybe even in government hands, time will tell.  The current crop in power hates golf.  Seems a given the courses will be in the red this year, so who knows what will happen.

[Sean_A]

Who said folks are relying on cheap and cheerful new builds? Anyway, there are barriers to new build cheap and cheerful... so what? Designers and owners become more creative...its an age old story. You may decry the idea of £40 green fees offering a good product, but a lot of golfers ain't interested in paying £80 for Brora or Golspie because they ain't that good. It's especially circumspect when a few years ago the green fee was half. On the other hand, I hope 80 quid expectations doesn't lead to charmless presentation and endless improvements. Being good courses for a reasonable price with lowered expectations were the reasons these courses became well known.

Sean:

See my reply to Jeff W, above.

What I'm saying is that most of the really good "cheap and cheerful" courses you are describing are likely to go away over time as they are discovered -- like Brora and Golspie.

And there is no way a new supply can take their place -- the only room for creativity is for architects to work for peanuts and build courses without irrigation.  I stopped doing that once I realized that if I was successful, the owner would just raise the price.

So, you should be careful talking up these cheap and cheerful places, because you are literally talking the price, up.

For sure, I have seen crazy hikes in prices taking high quality courses from good value (despite relatively high green fees) to outright dear. Nearly all the courses below the top tier were excellent value and there were plenty of cheap and cheerful courses which did include Brora etc. For now, I am alright with choices, but they have been significantly reduced in recent years. Still, I don't think £40/$50 is an unrealistic bar because I have a few good memberships to keep a steady diet of high quality golf . That said, these days some guest fees are now £40 plus! I can't quite figure out why members don't fight back against high guest fees for their mates. With proper rules in place guest fees needn't be a source of revenue.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Expectations, and it could be argued that the worst spreader of high expectations (combined maybe with colour TV) usually happens this week, although not this year.
A simple Clubhouse with basic food and beverages plus, where the climate, terrain and lack of pesky meat eating critters exits, the use of sheep and goats as the principle means of mowing and vegetation control will cut a Clubs cost base dramatically. And how many bunkers do you really need or will grass filled hollows do?
And as the cost base becomes lower the less folks have to pay when the annual cost pie is divided up.
And do folks really need 14 clubs in a big bag and a glove on one hand?
And where it’s really hot do folks really even need to play? Do something else. Folks don’t play when it’s cold or mega-rainy. Treat golf as a seasonal game.
 
Atb

[Bob Montle]

Cheerful is an atmosphere. Cheerful is an ambience. Cheerful comes from the interaction you have with other people. Its social.

Yes! 
And Fraserburgh is Cheerful. 
and relatively cheap.

[Tom_Doak]

That said, these days some guest fees are now £40 plus! I can't quite figure out why members don't fight back against high guest fees for their mates. With proper rules in place guest fees needn't be a source of revenue.

I've been in a couple of meetings over the years when that happens.  Basically, someone asks the guy fighting for low guest fees how many rounds he played last year, and divides the cost of membership by that, to show him that the visitors are paying less per round than the typical member.  And then the visitor rates get hiked!

[Sean_A]

That said, these days some guest fees are now £40 plus! I can't quite figure out why members don't fight back against high guest fees for their mates. With proper rules in place guest fees needn't be a source of revenue.

I've been in a couple of meetings over the years when that happens.  Basically, someone asks the guy fighting for low guest fees how many rounds he played last year, and divides the cost of membership by that, to show him that the visitors are paying less per round than the typical member.  And then the visitor rates get hiked!

That is an odd way to look at guest fees. I look at guest fees as opportunities to play with friends. The cost of golf per round has nothing to do with the matter. That's like trying to come up a formula for inviting people over for dinner.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

That said, these days some guest fees are now £40 plus! I can't quite figure out why members don't fight back against high guest fees for their mates. With proper rules in place guest fees needn't be a source of revenue.

I've been in a couple of meetings over the years when that happens.  Basically, someone asks the guy fighting for low guest fees how many rounds he played last year, and divides the cost of membership by that, to show him that the visitors are paying less per round than the typical member.  And then the visitor rates get hiked!

I had a member question why our unaccompanied fees were so high.
He was sending out a group of his friends in an off peak time-but they were paying.
When I pointed out that based on the fact that he had played 10 rounds the year before,that he was paying 10x per round what the unaccompanieds were paying, he quickly replied "charge them more"

[Gib_Papazian]

Okay, that is quite enough smugness out of you limey-ass twats about "quid this" and whatever else you call your funny money. Here on the American West Coast, the formula is really simple: Distance, Fees, Quality . . . pick any two.


Oh yes, there are the occasional exceptions - usually a muni with a devoted Park & Rec Department - but they are generally a losing proposition for the city or county - especially since city workers have wildly lucrative health and pension plans.


In other words, the idiots who run the city are too cowardly to tell the rich-ass seniors that cheap golf is not an entitlement  . . . . but all of them reliably vote their amusements a chunk of your earnings through taxes, so the Pelosians dare not serve even a morsel of the shit sandwich to their seasoned citizens.


But I'll disagree with St. Tom here - because "cheap and cheerful" is an easy objective - provided the barrier of entry does not involve millions of dollars in legal fees to develop a golf course.


Environuts have made it almost impossible to build even abbreviated golf courses in the thousands of acres of ground near our home - but peep nary a word when home and condo developers make "donations" to the coffers of the well-organized, useful idiots who act as gatekeepers . . . . Antifa, except with J.D. degrees.

Our low-vibratory "Solicitors" are allowed to pretend to be "Barristers" . . . . . . since American judges will entertain unlimited nonsense - the "Full employment act" for lawyers nobody wants to talk about.

The Sierra Club here has also become a holding tank for fist-waving women in comfortable shoes and lawyers too fucking anti-social to ever get a real job. Most would be chimney sweeps in London if not for an avalanche of unaccredited law schools, training rich suckers for a career in making insurance companies rich. 

The only golf exceptions left are places like Gleneagles GC at Mclaren Park in S.F. . . . . it used to be a pile of shit muni, surrounded by projects and gunfire, until a local iconoclast bought it and turned it into perhaps the best 9-hole golf course in the west.

Cold Anchor Steam beer - serve yourself - mismatched chairs in the clubhouse (but each comfortable) and lovely corn beef sandwiches with pickled eggs. The only rule is hash pipes and doobies must be enjoyed outside on the benches.


$33 dollars - two sets of tees on each hole for a full 18 - and a gamblin' skins game for anybody who dares the locals, all of which look off-duty from the sewer and roadie departments.


Aside from that, Skywest in Hayward shrieks hink-a-dink architecture in spots, but the quirk is fun, the beer is cold, the barmaids daughter has just enough tramp to give you a chuckle - and for the price of a round, the "Head Pro" will give you the same putting lesson he claims came from George Low . . . . if you don't know who that is, I cannot help you.       


 


 

[Thomas Dai]

That said, these days some guest fees are now £40 plus! I can't quite figure out why members don't fight back against high guest fees for their mates. With proper rules in place guest fees needn't be a source of revenue.

I've been in a couple of meetings over the years when that happens.  Basically, someone asks the guy fighting for low guest fees how many rounds he played last year, and divides the cost of membership by that, to show him that the visitors are paying less per round than the typical member.  And then the visitor rates get hiked!

That is an odd way to look at guest fees. I look at guest fees as opportunities to play with friends. The cost of golf per round has nothing to do with the matter. That's like trying to come up a formula for inviting people over for dinner.
Ciao

Member-guest prices at private member UK clubs have long been different from visitors greenfees.
Some members and their mates/cronies abuse this though.
This is why some Clubs limit how many guests a member may sign-in or the frequency of play of the same guest.
This is fair enough by me.
Strange that the member abusing the system doesn't realise that his member-guest mate playing frequently means that in the grand scheme of things the member himself ultimately pays more in subs and the club never makes up in guest food and beverage margin (as distinct from income) what they otherwise lose in non-member revenue.
atb