Pine Valley #4 Have the changes made it better?

[archie_struthers]

 


Started this by resurrecting my old post about how an expert should play Pine Valley. Fifteen minutes into the redo realized it bored me so no mas.. 

But.... looked at the post and realized some great discussion could be had over the evolution of #4 and perhaps a couple more holes later. I've been vocal about my dislike of the new (15 years)  bunkers on top of the hill, not for  their look or integration but because of the loss of angles and the strategic choices they took away for many. The new tees are beyond my ability to play, but I see how they could be useful in limited situations. I'm not able to post pictures and hope one of my friends will help as usual. But for anyone who wants to participate there is a pretty cool flyover of the course that's quite good online.  Let's start with # 4.    Rave on !

[Tom_Doak]

Archie:


On my first course, High Pointe, I built two holes thinking about the old stories about Ben Hogan, where he would take a shorter club off the tee to leave himself a flat lie for the second shot, instead of driving further but into a more awkward spot.  So, the crest of the landing area on those two holes was 220-240 yards off the tee, and if you drove it further, you'd get a boost but you might also be kicked into trouble behind a tree or something.


After I fell out with the owners, some good player got their ear and told them they needed to build tees further back on those two holes, to reward the good player for a good drive.


That's the mentality behind the new back tee on #4 at Pine Valley, and nearly everywhere by most architects today.  Build the back tee so far back that Tiger Woods can reach position A, but everybody else is screwed, because they're not as good.


Indeed, that's the way a lot of things in America seem to have gone.  Survival of the fittest . . . as imposed by the fittest.

[archie_struthers]

 


The new tee is one thing, only 5% of the players will even walk back there but the bunkers that Tom Fazio put in on the right side driving area have bugged me since they went in about 15 years ago. They look like they've been there forever and are beautifully built but they removed  a strategic angle for the shorter hitter to get to the bottom of the hill. As stated they gave the super bomber more of an advantage than before on one of the most strategic tee shots, never a good thing.


I remember fore-caddying on the hole and watching the happy body language when you gave the player the safe sign on a ball hugging the tree line. For me that tee shot was really fun, knowing you could blow it pretty far right and use the slope to your advantage. Now the bunkers swallow it up and mandate a pitch out unless you get really lucky.


The reasons for changes have been stated but in my opinion are flawed.The new tee evolved as it has been theorized that Crump wanted a player to hit a longer shot into the green and designed it so you could bounce it on. Pretty sure TEP may have found some journal which reflected this, perhaps he may surface and help me out. 

 As Tom said designing for the tour pro or expert is a mistake often made in the last two decades as the ball has gone further, and has made architects and powers that be increasingly be concerned about the best players in decision making. Not the best idea for sure.


Perhaps the quirk of the bounce off the right side bothered someone who didn't think luck should enter into the equation of golf. As I see more fun in that than ever it makes me miss that option even more. I for one would love to see them rip out the bunkers on the right and bring the angle back! If they want to toughen it up let the rough grow a little more over there. It's so long from the back
tee it doesn't matter for any but the longest hitters, the 1% ers.

 The turbo boost on the fourth hole at  about 240 from the old tee put the bunkers beyond the fairway in play. Long and right.  Often if you weren't on your game as a looper you would forget to suggest the three wood to a good player and you would hold your breath if he caught one flush ! So it was a great tee shot.

[Tom_Doak]

Often if you weren't on your game as a looper you would forget to suggest the three wood to a good player and you would hole your breath if he caught one flush !

They are protecting themselves from those sorts of accidents now . . . but they are happy to leave the average player to make them on the short side.

[archie_struthers]

 


Joe Bausch sent me the coolest picture of the bottom of the landing area for the tee shot on #4. What any of you who know the hole will immediately see is that there two bunkers missing. I'm hoping he can share it with us as it opened my eyes !


Perhaps the original intent of Crump wasn't to end the fairway prematurely, thus mandating a lay up for the longer hitters. As they say , a picture speaks a thousand words.

[Ronald Montesano]

Is the new tee on the other side of fairway drive? That is a stunning angle. You have to hit a power slide, left to right, to get to the right side.


The bunker I think you mean is obscured by the trees on the Google Maps overhead. Where is the link to the flyover, that you mention?

[archie_struthers]

 


Ron just google "every hole at Pine Valley"  it's quite good

[JESII]

I'll bite...




The Google Maps aerial Ron mentions paints the picture for me. Archie, follow these steps;


Go to Google Maps in your address line
Navigate to Pine Valley
Locate #4
Zoom in to the point you're comfortable
This is the current satellite image...the bunkers are in the shade, but clearly on the periphery of the hole.


That image matches my memory of the bunkers as being really tucked into the edge of the trees on the right. Not to say a ball that used to land where the edge of the bunkers are wouldn't have bounded to the bottom of the hill if it were firm, but that idea of trying to miss the trees by inches in order to get a nice surprise is a little bit of a reach for me.


I would venture to say I'm #2 behind you on this board in trips around PV, and I too loved giving that safe sign...but it was always to a guy leaning hard left because he had clearly lost his drive way right of his intended line.


Now...am I all for quirk like that? Sure. And if that's the argument; Quirk is king!, I probably wouldn't argue with you. But if the argument is that this was a viable alternative for someone to take from the tee, I'll push all in against you finding on guy that would admit they did that...

[archie_struthers]

 


Jimmy you hit it better and farther than me, even when I was young and buff    but I really did try to take it inside the pine tree that sits in the corner of the bunker. TEP who surely knew where it was going really enjoyed talking about if he cut that angle he could occasionally get it down to the bottom. He can correct me if my memory fails.

 Often had to hit 3 Baffler (yep) as I was just as concerned maybe more about hitting it deep and thru the fairway long. Sure I hit a bunch off Cy Eastlacks' garage (way right across the road) but never could hit driver real good. Three wood worked well here.  If Joe Bausch posts that picture I think it will surprise you. It appears that fairway wrapped around the center bunker and continued all the way to the green.

[Joe Bausch]

#4 at PV under construction (courtesy of the Thomas Warren Sears photograph collection at the Archive of American Gardens).

[Josh Bills]

Here are aerials from 1932 and 1935 from the Hagley collection showing the 4th hole:


1932:



1935:

[JESII]

Great pictures fells...love it!


The ingredient in Archie's favor in this debate is that, without trees on the right side, the short cut is a realistic option with risk and a reward. Today, miss the line by a yard and catch a branch and you could make a 7. Hitting your line would gain you 40 or 50 yards...


Importantly, the trees are legitimately half in the trees on the right. They are not biting into the fairway up on that plateau.

[Willie_Dow]

Long time ago, starting from Dormie House @ #3, with lots of strength {I thought), I'd try that short cut over those bunkers.  Once did ! , and made it !, got a three !


Memories !!!!!  With old balls and wooden heads

[Bryan Izatt]

Never having played there I can't add to the discussion, but here are two aerials from Google Earth that show the bunkering.  From overhead it's hard to imagine that the bunkers add any more dissuasion than the tree line did previously. It looks like the tree line was cut back some to accommodate the bunkering.  Some scrolling required with the pictures.

[Bruce Katona]

On my one and only loop around PV my approach squeaked a bit right of my target and into the landscape bed of to the right of the green.


My caddie & I (it wasn't Archie) agree it would be best for me to leave it there and take a drop just off the right fringe, just in case someone would get upset seeing ground cover come flying out and on my wedge.

[JESII]

Nah...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAfabxgkiOI

[Bruce Katona]

Not BK but that guy could play on Tour out of the Hospitality tents.

[MCirba]

I may or may not have played out of the flower beds this past fall.