Golf Customs

[John Kavanaugh]

Our greatest hope for the future of our children is that travel team culture is destroyed.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is this really necessary? What percentage of kids would prefer to be playing at home with their friends? Who would lose in the long run if all this went away?


https://www.ajga.org/schedule/2020

[Mark Stewart]

Is this really necessary? What percentage of kids would prefer to be playing at home with their friends? Who would lose in the long run if all this went away?


https://www.ajga.org/schedule/2020

https://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/581/581447686/581447686_201712_990.pdf

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Shea, what's the argument for why youth caddies would be ok, but not adult caddies? Is it just the idea that resort and public programs might not survive much longer, while private clubs with Evans Scholar programs may continue to support theirs?


Regardless, I would expect that overall caddie numbers decline. Youth caddies may become a higher percentage, but mostly by attrition of adult caddies - not replacing them.

Jason
The scenario I am playing is if caddies are all together no go during this period due to community spread precautions. Because many caddies are off the books they do not have unemployment coming their way- so they will have to rely on funds donated to them, and then possibly/eventually will be forced to look for other work to support their families.


So when things fire back up, social distance is eased- who is available?


my dream is that we have an opportunity to re-evaluate how we execute caddie programs- leading towards health, sustainability and youth.

Many may come to realize that they don't actually need a super caddie to enjoy the game walking with friends, family, and competitors. Moreover the same as it relates to carts, and general service.

[Ian Mackenzie]

The ridiculous hug and fake "air kiss" on the LPGA is toast....;-)

[John Kavanaugh]

Is this really necessary? What percentage of kids would prefer to be playing at home with their friends? Who would lose in the long run if all this went away?


https://www.ajga.org/schedule/2020

https://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/581/581447686/581447686_201712_990.pdf

Is this evidence of a good thing or a bad thing? I've made quite a few donations to the AJGA but that was because they were auctioning off some cool stuff. I think my son even threw out the first pitch at a Dodgers/Cardinals game.

[V. Kmetz]

my dream is that we have an opportunity to re-evaluate how we execute caddie programs- leading towards health, sustainability and youth.

Many may come to realize that they don't actually need a super caddie to enjoy the game walking with friends, family, and competitors. Moreover the same as it relates to carts, and general service.

Why is that your dream? How would that lead towards health and sustainability of anything? Why is that an important realization?
 to YOU...what did it do for you, when you made it?

[M. Shea Sweeney]

my dream is that we have an opportunity to re-evaluate how we execute caddie programs- leading towards health, sustainability and youth.

Many may come to realize that they don't actually need a super caddie to enjoy the game walking with friends, family, and competitors. Moreover the same as it relates to carts, and general service.

Why is that your dream? How would that lead towards health and sustainability of anything? Why is that an important realization?
 to YOU...what did it do for you, when you made it?

V. Kmetz


in brief:
I am a PGA Professional and the director of a non-profit sports based youth development (golf) program based in Harlem, NY.


Selfishly I would like to see more young men of color have access to caddying- and more young people in general have access to caddying- not sitting on a bench. Caddying helps build work ethic/constitution, punctuality, maturity, interpersonal skills, problem solving and access to positive adults while relying on your own strength and mental acuity to execute your responsibility while working in the great outdoors.


Walking golf creates more sustainability for the long term as it requires less carts, cart maintenance, cart storage, cart usage, cart traffic and wear, cart expense.


Walking golf promotes good health- the reason caddies exist are to carry the bag and allow the golfer to play without the stress of carrying a bag.


A younger caddie corps that yield a lower fee structure would encourage the growth of the youth caddie as whole. 

[JLahrman]

Our greatest hope for the future of our children is that travel team culture is destroyed.

I agree with that.


Also, taking the hat off after a round isn't much of a custom. It's only thought of as such because Tiger's opponents felt obliged to remove their hats when he did after he'd finished beating them like a drum.

[archie_struthers]

 


As to caddies and bag drops it will be interesting if people want anyone handling their bag. I'm guessing a good deal of folks won't be comfortable this year even if we get back to some sort of normalcy in the next couple months. But I'm really optimistic by nature.


It very might be that until there is a vaccine all bets are off. As to collecting on these bets no doubt the gloves will be on! [size=78%] [/size]

[V. Kmetz]

Selfishly I would like to see more young men of color have access to caddying- and more young people in general have access to caddying- not sitting on a bench. Caddying helps build work ethic/constitution, punctuality, maturity, interpersonal skills, problem solving and access to positive adults while relying on your own strength and mental acuity to execute your responsibility while working in the great outdoors.

Walking golf creates more sustainability for the long term as it requires less carts, cart maintenance, cart storage, cart usage, cart traffic and wear, cart expense.

Walking golf promotes good health- the reason caddies exist are to carry the bag and allow the golfer to play without the stress of carrying a bag.

A younger caddie corps that yield a lower fee structure would encourage the growth of the youth caddie as whole.

Where in the heck are you man?  What are your numbers, your data about the lack of young (13-21) year old caddies in your district?  I have worked in that very district as a staffer, caddie, caddie master (one-time President of the Westchester CM's in fact) for close to 40 years and know this place... your account is claiming a problem that doesn't exist or is extrapolated from a small sample of experiences you've swelled into a magnus dream, requiring your solution.


...And minority youth?  What opportunities are being denied? What are you saying...have you been to a Westchester/Fairfield club in a season recently...? Have you seen the annual Spring Caddie Academies (as many as 5 of em all over the Met since 2005), which in its day used to see 75 to over 120 (at Westchester CC)? Have you seen a recent list of CSA Turnesa Scholarship winners...
Hispanic, Hispanic American, African-American and Caribbean-American kids ARE the ones who represent that age group in that area...they are from the color-centric areas Yonkers and Mount Vernon and New Rochelle and the Bronx Work, advancement, connections to education and opportunity for youth and youth of color...it's happening dude, you're in the building, but the party has moved a few floors above you.


And this background ethos, that the adult caddies are somehow holding back the kids on the bench...bullshit... in the first place its usually those adult caddies (also of color and also from Yonkers, Mt Vernon, Bronx, etc) who are spreading the word and pointing those kids to the course and the training in the first place...and if you bring or recommend a youth, its likely the CM will attach that youth to you for observation.


I'll tell you 4 things to solve before you pursue your ill-considered initiatives much further.
1. Find a way to get a youth to the course before 6:45 on Fri-Sun weekends, like another lesson youth should learn, early bird gets the worm.
2. Find a way to get a youth to commit to 7/8ths of the summer Fri-Mon  ahead of time...like the commentators say about football players...the only ability that means anything is AVAIL-ability
3. Find a way to get a youth to appreciate the one value you failed to mention...patience...patience to inure the hard lesson that unlike all the magic-wand-I'll-protect-you exhortations to gratification of parents on behalf of their children...doesn't come as so as you want it or judge yourself ready for it.
4. Find a way to stop members from asking/begging/hoping THEIR caddie master to set their own boy up at the course next door...that's one less opportunity for a youth of lesser means and greater need... and the practice can be occasionally rampant.


What's worst of all...Pro... is you took this horrible fn' crisis and in another horrible fn' social media thread devoted to discussing which stupid, meaningless customs of a game would suffer after this, you went strolling down an ignorant naive path that nearly hoped for people who will be and are in grave threadbare consequences already to be utterly swallowed up for a youth corps and caddie programs which are in superb health for all the traditional and technical aspects needed in this area.


In future talk about your specific club or a named club for whom you can provide real evidence.

[Peter Pallotta]

Geez, VK -- you seem to have become the very same kind of poster you've so often decried in the past. I didn't read anything in M Shea's post/personal pov to warrant such a self-righteously thundering and disrespectful 'argument from authority'.
P

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Selfishly I would like to see more young men of color have access to caddying- and more young people in general have access to caddying- not sitting on a bench. Caddying helps build work ethic/constitution, punctuality, maturity, interpersonal skills, problem solving and access to positive adults while relying on your own strength and mental acuity to execute your responsibility while working in the great outdoors.

Walking golf creates more sustainability for the long term as it requires less carts, cart maintenance, cart storage, cart usage, cart traffic and wear, cart expense.

Walking golf promotes good health- the reason caddies exist are to carry the bag and allow the golfer to play without the stress of carrying a bag.

A younger caddie corps that yield a lower fee structure would encourage the growth of the youth caddie as whole.

Where in the heck are you man?  What are your numbers, your data about the lack of young (13-21) year old caddies in your district?  I have worked in that very district as a staffer, caddie, caddie master (one-time President of the Westchester CM's in fact) for close to 40 years and know this place... your account is claiming a problem that doesn't exist or is extrapolated from a small sample of experiences you've swelled into a magnus dream, requiring your solution.


...And minority youth?  What opportunities are being denied? What are you saying...have you been to a Westchester/Fairfield club in a season recently...? Have you seen the annual Spring Caddie Academies (as many as 5 of em all over the Met since 2005), which in its day used to see 75 to over 120 (at Westchester CC)? Have you seen a recent list of CSA Turnesa Scholarship winners...
Hispanic, Hispanic American, African-American and Caribbean-American kids ARE the ones who represent that age group in that area...they are from the color-centric areas Yonkers and Mount Vernon and New Rochelle and the Bronx Work, advancement, connections to education and opportunity for youth and youth of color...it's happening dude, you're in the building, but the party has moved a few floors above you.


And this background ethos, that the adult caddies are somehow holding back the kids on the bench...bullshit... in the first place its usually those adult caddies (also of color and also from Yonkers, Mt Vernon, Bronx, etc) who are spreading the word and pointing those kids to the course and the training in the first place...and if you bring or recommend a youth, its likely the CM will attach that youth to you for observation.


I'll tell you 4 things to solve before you pursue your ill-considered initiatives much further.
1. Find a way to get a youth to the course before 6:45 on Fri-Sun weekends, like another lesson youth should learn, early bird gets the worm.
2. Find a way to get a youth to commit to 7/8ths of the summer Fri-Mon  ahead of time...like the commentators say about football players...the only ability that means anything is AVAIL-ability
3. Find a way to get a youth to appreciate the one value you failed to mention...patience...patience to inure the hard lesson that unlike all the magic-wand-I'll-protect-you exhortations to gratification of parents on behalf of their children...doesn't come as so as you want it or judge yourself ready for it.
4. Find a way to stop members from asking/begging/hoping THEIR caddie master to set their own boy up at the course next door...that's one less opportunity for a youth of lesser means and greater need... and the practice can be occasionally rampant.


What's worst of all...Pro... is you took this horrible fn' crisis and in another horrible fn' social media thread devoted to discussing which stupid, meaningless customs of a game would suffer after this, you went strolling down an ignorant naive path that nearly hoped for people who will be and are in grave threadbare consequences already to be utterly swallowed up for a youth corps and caddie programs which are in superb health for all the traditional and technical aspects needed in this area.


In future talk about your specific club or a named club for whom you can provide real evidence.

V. Kmetz
This discussion board often discusses sustainability of golf- in various forms. I stand by my words, and position.

 I've been reading this website for quite some time. I enjoy your posts.


While in isolation I have found myself on this website again.


So when considering the state of the game I figure that the landscape will change some- and it will hurt.


Take care and be safe.

edit-
it occurred to me that in reply:28- "my dream" might have been taken out of context. I'm certainly not dreaming of bad times for our business.

[V. Kmetz]

You're prolly right, PP... but the amount of crap I see from those de-cried posters go unchallenged and un-properly answered just to read one or two meaningful GCA posts... I just don;t care... And sometimes one of my long invectives, weeks or months apart, can relieve the need to address them daily or hourly.... which is better for all of us.

But also too, Pete...what are u worried about or protecting the integrity of?...what about the disrespect of saying things that many people can tell you is just not the case?  If I'm self-righteous, it's because I spend a lifetime in the trade of club service and if this person had as complete a picture, he wouldn't be saying it...

But as to propriety and thundering and so forth...this board has long ago became a smoky old whore who has some interesting johns and makes with an occasional wisdom, but gets ridiculous and sad as its loses its looks.

My reputation in this cathouse is cemented, for good or for ill, for short or for long

[M. Shea Sweeney]

You're prolly right, PP... but the amount of crap I see from those de-cried posters go unchallenged and un-properly answered just to read one or two meaningful GCA posts... I just don;t care... And sometimes one of my long invectives, weeks or months apart, can relieve the need to address them daily or hourly.... which is better for all of us.

But also too, Pete...what are u worried about or protecting the integrity of?...what about the disrespect of saying things that many people can tell you is just not the case?  If I'm self-righteous, it's because I spend a lifetime in the trade of club service and if this person had as complete a picture, he wouldn't be saying it...

But as to propriety and thundering and so forth...this board has long ago became a smoky old whore who has some interesting johns and makes with an occasional wisdom, but gets ridiculous and sad as its loses its looks.

My reputation in this cathouse is cemented, for good or for ill, for short or for long

V. Kmetz
I'm not at all insulted by your reply- I appreciate your take.

[V. Kmetz]

We've both had our say on the matter...

[Ian Mackenzie]

Geez, VK -- you seem to have become the very same kind of poster you've so often decried in the past. I didn't read anything in M Shea's post/personal pov to warrant such a self-righteously thundering and disrespectful 'argument from authority'.
P

+1


same sauce, different day...zzzzzz

[Mark Stewart]

Is this really necessary? What percentage of kids would prefer to be playing at home with their friends? Who would lose in the long run if all this went away?


https://www.ajga.org/schedule/2020

https://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/581/581447686/581447686_201712_990.pdf

Is this evidence of a good thing or a bad thing? I've made quite a few donations to the AJGA but that was because they were auctioning off some cool stuff. I think my son even threw out the first pitch at a Dodgers/Cardinals game.

Who would lose in the long run? The CEO of AJGA who makes $600,000 per year.

[John Kavanaugh]

If Stephen has spent the last 30 years dealing with parents at golf tournaments he has earned every penny.

[John Crowley]

Our greatest hope for the future of our children is that travel team culture is destroyed.

I agree with that.


Also, taking the hat off after a round isn't much of a custom. It's only thought of as such because Tiger's opponents felt obliged to remove their hats when he did after he'd finished beating them like a drum.

Right! On 18 green I have a putter in one hand my ball in the other and my fellow players want to shake hands (in the past). I sure am not going to take off my hat. Actually I haven’t shaken hands for a few years- fist bumps, but now they are out. How about a simple “Thanks for the game” or some variant.

[Pete_Pittock]

Shotgun starts

[Michael Wolf]

Detouring 15 minutes from car to locker room and vice versa every time I need to change my shoes. Was already becoming obsolete with the popularity of spikeless shoes.


Michael

[Tim Martin]

Are member guest tournaments a thing of the past until there is a vaccine? Might you have to provide proof you had the vaccine after it’s available?

[John Kavanaugh]

Are member guest tournaments a thing of the past until there is a vaccine? Might you have to provide proof you had the vaccine after it’s available?

That would F with the money. People will sacrifice safety in the face of higher dues.