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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2020, 10:20:43 AM »
In the same way Joni Mitchell sang, "you don't know what you got till it's gone", the Old 5th should be missed, but sadly, won't.


It should be missed because of its impact on the routing. Coming around the corner, seeing what lies ahead, in all its massive grandeur, had as much impact as a well crafted Segway, on a great film.


The new hole is exponentially easier, and does not provide or provoke anything as emotive as that.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2020, 11:44:27 AM »
Come on Adam.  That old 5th was the worst hole on the golf course.  Anyone who played there often would agree.  Hard doesn't mean good.  If Tom Doak built that hole (or any of us for that matter) we would not have been proud of it.  Frankly we would be embarrassed.  Let's just call a spade a spade.  It was a bad golf hole. 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2020, 11:54:58 AM »
Mark,

I've never played it or the new one for that matter, so I can't say either way.

But it seems one would need to see what was originally put in place some 100 years ago before passing judgement. Were the trees as imposing?  Perhaps the bunkering and green itself were different. I'm guessing the houses wasn't there yet either...

Maybe Thomas has some pictures of it from yesteryear.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2020, 12:17:28 PM »
Kalen,
If there was originally a better golf hole there that is a different matter.  My recollection is that the ocean front property (originally was not an option) which is why the hole was built where it was but someone here who has done research on this might verify.  Could the hole have been improved in place - of course it could have.  All I am saying is that as it was (prior to the new hole being built), it was the worst golf hole at Pebble Beach.  I love old and quirky as much as anyone but old and crappy is another matter.  Once again, hard doesn't always equate to good.  Note: It is fine and normal to miss something when it is gone.  I get that.  We all do.  Change is not easy.  But when Archie said, "do you miss the old hole", I took that as "does anyone wish the old hole should be brought back".  The answer in that case is NO. 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2020, 12:26:55 PM »
Mark,

Well said, I too would be interested in seeing what was originally there.  Perhaps it could have possibly been worth it to "restore" it. Do we have many examples of good to great uphill and blind par 3s?

Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2020, 12:32:15 PM »
Here is the 1941 version.  Appears the large home was already in place at that time along the shoreline. 



Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2020, 12:37:04 PM »
Thanks Josh.  That was my recollection which is why the old 5th was placed where it was.  They didn't have a choice.  It was a transition hole or connector hole, call it what you want.  It no doubt would have been along the water if that land was available. 

Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2020, 12:47:35 PM »
Here is the map from 1925, not sure I can go much further back than this on the golf course.  The house was there already. 



Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2020, 01:40:05 PM »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2020, 01:41:17 PM »
It's amazing to me that this hole was only replaced in the mid-90s, on one of the five most recognizable courses in the world, and yet is almost completely impossible to find photos of. I've seen more pictures of manufactured dunes from the 1930s on hole 7 at Pebble than I have pictures of the entire old 5th. I don't know what that means about its merits as a hole, but it's certainly not an endorsement.


The idea that it was superior to the current hole because it shortened the walk by 150 yards at a course where 6 hour rounds is the norm is the most GCA-hipster thing I've ever heard.



"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2020, 01:47:37 PM »
Jason,


There is that too.  And the 150 yard walk thing is a bit misleading, given that it was already an approx 75-80 yard walk from the old 5th green to the middle tee on 6.  So it only added 75 yards or so, but either way results in the same "walk and wait" situation.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2020, 04:50:06 PM »
Mark Fine,  I'll agree it was quite the head scratcher on my initial visit. A real WTF moment. Going inland??? But that opinion changed, over time.


  It was a daunting uphill 155 yards, for a guy with my shot shape. I ended up in the front bunkers more times than not. Happy with a chance for up and down. Once, I came there 2 under par, probably my best start ever to any round, let alone PB. I left, 2 over. I have every right to hate the hole. Who wouldn't just accept that the hole sucks because it doesn't fit my eye? It was the narrowest shot demand on the entire course, and, it was the only uphill par 3.  For varietal reasons alone it's already better than the new.

This hole taught me a couple of pretty big lessons. So disparaging it now, outside of its context, is futile.


Clearly, feeling the subtle ebbs and flows, of the former Pebble Beach's whole, will be missed by fewer and fewer. 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 04:51:44 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2020, 05:43:54 PM »
 8)


Mark, I'm with the minority on this one and not even comparing it to the new hole which I haven't seen in person. But I'm mystified with all the golf I've played in the ensuing years that I remember it so clearly today. Usually a hole that has nothing to it leaves you without opinion or worse yet , any memory of it.


This hole just jumped up the other day as I watched the Open highlights when Watson beat Nicklaus. Her's what else I remember vividly from my one trip to Pebble. Obviously the second shot on eight was memorable, as were the tee shots on nine and ten. Remember a tap in birdie on two after a good second shot and then the fifth, which I remember vividly.


As good as the rest was my memory of how long the wedge in on 14th played after two good shots. Had about 120 in and it played at least a club and a half longer. Remember walking it off as couldn't imagine why my ball came up short. Funny what you remember some times.


I'm not sold that the old five was no good. Not at all!

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2020, 06:17:35 PM »
Archie,
Sometimes it is the worst holes that standout in one’s memory the most.  I am sure you have played courses where there is a particular hole that you talk about after the round that you just shake your head about and say, man that was a terrible golf hole, what was the architect thinking. 


It is not like this was a Dell hole like at Lahinch.  There wasn’t much quirk to the old 5th at Pebble.  If you like hitting up a hill through a narrow chute over a bland bunker to a blind target and a heavily pitched green that you can’t see then how can I argue with you  ;)


I am surprised they didn’t sell thousands of lithographs of that hole in the pro shop.  I would have guessed everyone would want a picture of that hole hanging in their den in a prominent place 😊
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 06:21:59 PM by Mark_Fine »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2020, 07:10:56 PM »
I grew up playing Pebble several times a year. People forget the green was constantly beset with fungus problems and the surrounds were drippy and muddy due to little or no air circulation in that corner of the property.


The eucalyptus trees were enormous and for much of my youth, had grown out so far on the left side, the hole was known as "the only dogleg par-3 in America." No problem with my three-knuckle sling draw, but Dad HATED that hole with his feathery fade.


The front bunker got more work than a ten dollar hooker at a truck stop, so the lip got so high a back pin placement turned it into a blind shot. The back of the green was almost always gnarled crabgrass and over the years, I noticed the pitch of the green got steeper and steeper, until it was probably 6-7 degrees of slope.


My recollection is purchasing the house adjacent to the green made it the most expensive individual hole in American golf history - at least until Blaring Trumpet National's 18th hole (in Palos Verdes) was constructed . . .  or so blusters the plaque next to the tee.


What everyone forgets is the deep chasm directly to the left of the putting surface on old #5; I used to tell Dad it would be cool to lose all the trees growing out of the creek-bed and move the green right up against it - further away from that funky-ass, el fako stone wall on the right side, that separated the cart path and redirected the rainwater away from the house.


In the end, #5 - when I was growing up - was a piece of shit, the architectural equivalent of putting a tramp stamp and nose ring on Nicole Kidman. Against all odds, St. Nicklaus managed to cough up a terrific replacement, putting aside the fact there it practically demands a cut shot; clearly, he could not resist.


Ironically, Pebble used to have two of the more notable par-3's in the world - and two complete ducks. That leaves only #12 that is, well, just not up to snuff. It is not the worst par-3 in championship golf, but the hole's primary appeal is the beverage cart behind the 11th green - which incidentally needs some bunker repair and an expansion of the putting surface.


Now, while we are on the subject of slaughtering sacred cows, am I the only person who thinks the putting surface on #17 needs to be brought back into the realm of sanity? Does anybody really believe the original intent was a bulbous hump that encourages a nasty scuff (or divot) to get from the right side to a left pin?


I'm sure Archbishop Doak will weigh in, but even the contours of #6 at Riviera provide an opportunity - with a bunker in the middle of the putting surface no less - to roll your ball around Cape Horn without having to piss off your host with a poorly executed flop shot . . . . .


End of rant.       


 


     

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2020, 07:20:37 PM »
Gib,
Nice summary about the "merits" of old #5.  I agree about #12 (it was the 2nd worst hole on the course, now it is the worst) and I also agree about #17. I think in time they will tweak that one.  The new bunkers on #17 also need some adjusting as the back supports are way too high for my taste. 
Mark

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2020, 07:28:56 PM »
 :P


Gib, that was one hell of a rant. Really! 


So I'm going to fold this hand and move on!




 :-X :-*
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 07:52:23 AM by archie_struthers »

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2020, 07:52:30 PM »
Where can I get a lithograph of the old 5th?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2020, 09:55:04 PM »
Mike,
Gib probably has an extra one he could sell you  ;)   


I am keeping mine  :)

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2020, 09:57:27 PM »
Mike,
Gib probably has an extra one he could sell you  ;)   


I am keeping mine  :)


Thanks for the chuckle and fun banter, guys.


Stay home and healthy if you're able!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2020, 10:47:00 PM »
Well,


The house is still there, looks like they just negotiated to buy the guys coastal edge property.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pebble+Beach+Golf+Links/@36.5657644,-121.939647,264m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x808de700fa6e8675:0xd17ac5c56aa7a68e!8m2!3d36.5696553!4d-121.9497555


No. The old house was removed, and the two there now are new. One of them is Charles Schwab's. I'm sure someone here knows whose the other is.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2020, 06:32:14 AM »
Well,


The house is still there, looks like they just negotiated to buy the guys coastal edge property.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pebble+Beach+Golf+Links/@36.5657644,-121.939647,264m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x808de700fa6e8675:0xd17ac5c56aa7a68e!8m2!3d36.5696553!4d-121.9497555


No. The old house was removed, and the two there now are new. One of them is Charles Schwab's. I'm sure someone here knows whose the other is.




Isn't it George Roberts'?

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2020, 09:32:34 AM »
Gib,


well summarized


yes, you did not want to miss left of old #5, classic California crap down there
It's all about the golf!

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2020, 02:05:34 PM »
Negligent maintenance of the Baranka and trees, made this a bad hole.


 


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody miss the old 5th at Pebble ?
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2020, 05:40:02 PM »
Adam,
Better maintenance could have improved the hole where it was (better maintenance improves most holes).  But whether you miss the hole or not, it was still the worst hole of the 18 at Pebble by far and very few (even on this site) would debate that. 
Mark