Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?

[Tom_Doak]

David points out:

"I would say on balance, though, having taught seven World No. 1 players and players who have won 23 majors, that I would consider myself to have had a fairly successful career."

My only question at this point is.  What the fuck has Brandel done other than fling his hair about like a Shampoo model?

I thought teachers didn't take credit for their students' successes on the course?

[Kalen Braley]

David points out:

"I would say on balance, though, having taught seven World No. 1 players and players who have won 23 majors, that I would consider myself to have had a fairly successful career."

My only question at this point is.  What the fuck has Brandel done other than fling his hair about like a Shampoo model?

I thought teachers didn't take credit for their students' successes on the course?

Tom,

Not sure who made that claim, its not my assertion.

But its not about a teacher taking all the credit, its a team effort and certainly deserve part of the credit.  I've had a handful of notable mentors in my career, and I have no problem giving them the credit they deserve for the wisdom they imparted to me.

[jeffwarne]

No, I’m saying that Chamblee knows more about how it feels to win and fail on Tour than Leadbetter.

Well you're at least 1/2 right...

[Mike_Young]

In my opinion it is a foolish statement for any of us to not acknowledge that anyone who has played on the PGA tor is not a great golfer. 
Golf Channel- sux...loses money and not sure will be here much longer...the head guy came from magazine side and has loaded it up with cheaper talent from that side etc.  The guys are biased toward which ever resorts give them a deal on their wedding or golf tourney or party or whatever the deal...

[Pat Burke]

Brandel and I played at the same time. He won I didn’t. We got along well


I worked with Leadbetter and consider him a friend and a great teacher/ better person


From my experience
I likely never qualify for the tour without Leadbetter’s coaching


I likely do not stay on tour without the help of Dr David Wright, butch Harmon and a number of professionals who were willing to help


My family (3 generations of professionals) build the foundation for me to play and now teach the game.  I hope I help my students as much as those that taught me did


I am certain there is a similarity in this and the architecture world.  There will always be people knocking down others to make points

[JESII]

I really don't think Brandell is crushing the teaching community as a whole. He clearly asks the question; are these the best 50 out of 27,000 PGA Professionals?


In the context of Mike's very initial question, yes, this is comparable to the Best of Lists for golf courses. There are certainly fad type courses that show up then disappear from rankings.


Since the teaching side of this has gotten the bulk of attention; and rightly so. I'll say, yes...there are absolutely guys on the range at Tour events that should not be considered Top 50. They follow the trends and when the trends change they're revealed for what they are. That's who he's highlighting. The instruction world is pivoting back to athleticism and individual strengths as opposed to set positions. I'm not on the range to identify them, but I doubt Jeff or Pat would argue with that statement.


As to Leadbetter, I am so impressed that Jeff and Pat have posted their experiences with him. Completely changes my impression, which is limited to knowing what he did with Faldo and then seeing so many top players since then go to him only to leave a lesser player in my view...and those incoherent "tips" in Golf Digest all these years. They speak to something I can relate to, benefiting from a guy that made the time to help them improve when they needed to lean on an expert for help. They have forever changed my opinion of the man.


He also changed my opinion of him by writing the piece he did. He has made his money and his fame. He wasn't standing up for himself. He was standing up for all those teachers trying to help someone get better. He didn't have to do it, so it's very admirable.


I'm not here to defend Chamblee, but I don't think anyone would argue the actual words spoken...

[Kalen Braley]

Jim,

As a counterpoint given there are 125 guys with Tour cards and another 25-50 with conditional status who may be at an event, I would think not every instructor at a Tour event will be top 50 just by doing some basic math.  Yes I know some teachers have multiple players in their stable, but 175 > 50.

I think the real issue here is what grounds/basis is Brandel speaking from, given he presumably has no actual teaching experience much less at the highest levels?

[JESII]

I think he made it clear, he looks at a teacher on the list and looks at the results of their players before and after they started together.


I haven't done that so no idea..but...


Most importantly, I'm not going to defend him but wanted to share what I thought after reading the article. I only read part 1 (plus the Led response article) if that matters.
[size=78%] [/size]

[jeffwarne]

I really don't think Brandell is crushing the teaching community as a whole. He clearly asks the question; are these the best 50 out of 27,000 PGA Professionals?


In the context of Mike's very initial question, yes, this is comparable to the Best of Lists for golf courses. There are certainly fad type courses that show up then disappear from rankings.


Since the teaching side of this has gotten the bulk of attention; and rightly so. I'll say, yes...there are absolutely guys on the range at Tour events that should not be considered Top 50. They follow the trends and when the trends change they're revealed for what they are. That's who he's highlighting. The instruction world is pivoting back to athleticism and individual strengths as opposed to set positions. I'm not on the range to identify them, but I doubt Jeff or Pat would argue with that statement.


As to Leadbetter, I am so impressed that Jeff and Pat have posted their experiences with him. Completely changes my impression, which is limited to knowing what he did with Faldo and then seeing so many top players since then go to him only to leave a lesser player in my view...and those incoherent "tips" in Golf Digest all these years. They speak to something I can relate to, benefiting from a guy that made the time to help them improve when they needed to lean on an expert for help. They have forever changed my opinion of the man.


He also changed my opinion of him by writing the piece he did. He has made his money and his fame. He wasn't standing up for himself. He was standing up for all those teachers trying to help someone get better. He didn't have to do it, so it's very admirable.


I'm not here to defend Chamblee, but I don't think anyone would argue the actual words spoken...

Thanks Jim,
There is some definite truth to what Brandel is alluding to, we've always known there were ambulance chaesrs on Tour looking for that one guy, while having minimally booked schedules on their home turf.
Tour players like, anyone else are playing well 10% o f the time and searching for something the rest of the time-thus they becaome vulnerable to snake oil  from even the best of intentioned when struggling.
The best Teachers have usually requied the Tour players to come to them-Jimmy Ballard being the prime example of this.'
he had over 100 different tour players come see him in Pell City Alabama and at Doral he made everyone attend his 2 day school as a condition of working with them.
Jim McLean generally required players to come to him as well, leadbetter's places at Grenlefe and Lake Nona were a hotbed of tour activity.
the point being, some teachers build a stable by following the tour, as a business plan, rather than building a business then having players seek THEM out.


Brandel just could've chosen his words more wisely, and has since apologized.
pretyy sure he couldn't "fix" Jordan Spieth in 2 seconds-given he has zero track record. A bit like me saying I could've knocked the 4 iron on the 18th green at Augusta for Greg Norman in '86

[JESII]

I'm sure you've hit that green with a 4 iron before Jeff...so why not?

[Bob Montle]

Read his book.
His point is that he believes many modern players do not live up to their potential because their swings have been constructed differently than the great golfers of yesteryear, specifically Bobby Jones, Sam Snead, Tom Weiskopf, young Tiger Woods and Jack Nicklaus.   Chamblee shows in the book what all these golfer's swings had in common.

He is passionate in what he believes in.  I respect him for sticking to his beliefs.

As for Speith - is it his swing change or is it mental?  Something certainly has changed.

[JMEvensky]

Read his book.
His point is that he believes many modern players do not live up to their potential because their swings have been constructed differently than the great golfers of yesteryear, specifically Bobby Jones, Sam Snead, Tom Weiskopf, young Tiger Woods and Jack Nicklaus.   Chamblee shows in the book what all these golfer's swings had in common.

He is passionate in what he believes in.  I respect him for sticking to his beliefs.

As for Speith - is it his swing change or is it mental?  Something certainly has changed.

This was my take as well. Seemed to me BC was kind of taking shots at instructors who have "flavor of the month" swing theories without recognizing there was pretty solid instruction before today's analytics.


Certainly out of my depth but who can say how much weight to give the instructor and how much the student? Would Jack Nicklaus have been the same player taught by someone other than Jack Grout? Tom Kite/Ben Crenshaw et al and Harvey Penick?

[Peter Pallotta]

Read his book.
His point is that he believes many modern players do not live up to their potential because their swings have been constructed differently than the great golfers of yesteryear, specifically Bobby Jones, Sam Snead, Tom Weiskopf, young Tiger Woods and Jack Nicklaus.   Chamblee shows in the book what all these golfer's swings had in common.

He is passionate in what he believes in.  I respect him for sticking to his beliefs.

As for Speith - is it his swing change or is it mental?  Something certainly has changed.

This was my take as well. Seemed to me BC was kind of taking shots at instructors who have "flavor of the month" swing theories without recognizing there was pretty solid instruction before today's analytics.

Certainly out of my depth but who can say how much weight to give the instructor and how much the student? Would Jack Nicklaus have been the same player taught by someone other than Jack Grout? Tom Kite/Ben Crenshaw et al and Harvey Penick?

I've often had the thought that, at the top levels, it's a total mystery. Remember when Nicklaus was in his prime and was beating everybody almost all of the time? Well, jump ahead 2 decades -- Jack's long been a part-time golfer, and long focused on his design business instead of on training, practice or competition, while all his contemporaries were eagerly heading back to their instructors to feverishly prepare and practice for the golden goose that was the Seniors Tour. And then what happened? They all played full competitive schedules while Jack casually showed up just 4 or 5 times a year for the majors -- and he *still* beat everybody almost all of the time!
Talent. Talent rules. Everything else is mostly babysitting.
IMHO

   

[John Kavanaugh]

A great teacher motivates as illustrated by Crenshaw's greatest victory. Leadbetter through opening up academies across the world motivates in a completely different way. He motivates parents to write checks.


I had never given the guy a second thought until he painted himself as some kind of selfless hero not concerned about the money.

[JESII]

Except for the fact that Jeff and Pat just confirmed what he said from their first hand experiences.


Can you imagine a longer shot to get your money back than offering time to a mini-tour or developing player?

[John Kavanaugh]

Except for the fact that Jeff and Pat just confirmed what he said from their first hand experiences.


Can you imagine a longer shot to get your money back than offering time to a mini-tour or developing player?

Today there are millions of people giving more than time as they continue to pay employees on the long shot their small business will continue down the road. If Leadbetter is continuing to pay his employees during this downturn I will go over and sweep his shop which is less than 5 miles from my Florida home.

[Tim Martin]

Mr. Haney from Green Acres and David Leadbetter have more in common than the straw hat.

[JESII]

Not looking to make you more cynical...but what are the odds your barber is paying his people?

[John Kavanaugh]

Not looking to make you more cynical...but what are the odds your barber is paying his people?

I believe my barber is an independent contractor and would say the odds are quite high that his landlord is giving him a break. What I did learn while trying to come up with an answer to you question has more to do with the name of his shop. Celebration Florida is of course an old Disney development so I naturally thought the name of the shop was Sweeney Todd. The shop is decorated with memorabilia from the play. Turns out the name is S.Todd after the proprietors Sharon and Todd. I hope they are doing well.


https://foursquare.com/v/s-todd-barbers/4bcdd77068f976b005e66483?tasteId=52e132be498ed1de2db2dcb6


From the looks above they are still taking appointments. Lucky for me I'm not due for a cut for quite some time.

[Pat Burke]

A great teacher motivates as illustrated by Crenshaw's greatest victory. Leadbetter through opening up academies across the world motivates in a completely different way. He motivates parents to write checks.


I had never given the guy a second thought until he painted himself as some kind of selfless hero not concerned about the money.

I usually stay out of this but I’ll only answer From my personal experience.  When I was at a crossroads of trying to continue a professional career, David Leadbetter not only coached me to a new level, but did so with a generosity and desire to help that makes your comment, in my experience of course, absurd


David’s academies are for certain a business and a successful one, for himself as well as a huge number of students.  But I’ve experienced and witnessed his desire and passion to help, and Ive seen that without the greed implied

[Tom_Doak]

David’s academies are for certain a business and a successful one, for himself as well as a huge number of students.  But I’ve experienced and witnessed his desire and passion to help, and Ive seen that without the greed implied

Pat:

As for Jim S., your personal testimony [and Jeff Warne's] on behalf of David L. were very meaningful in terms of this conversation.

But - how many years ago was that?

I am often disappointed in seeing how people change once they find some financial success. 

Think about the Tour pros we all know.  Almost all of them were in it at the beginning because they LOVED THE GAME and wanted to compete, and it wasn't about the money at all.  But how many can we say that about now?  For many, their desire to be "the best" morphs over into other avenues.  I doubt it is different with golf instructors:  some are in it for the teaching, but for others it gets to be about ego and all that goes with that.

It's not different with elite architects, either.  That's one of the things I admired most about Pete Dye.  He had no interest in hanging out with Jack Lupton and Herb Kohler and being like his clients.  He was just glad for the opportunity to work.

[Pat Burke]

Tom,
It started in 1989.  David was at the top of his game with Faldo, Price, Frost etc.
He was very busy, and I basically badgered him until I could get in to see him.  I sold my 75 Trans Am in order to got to Florida from California to work with him. 
I qualified for the tour through three stages of  Qschool three months after changing EVERY part of my golf swing and setup!


I was NOT a player that wanted a shadow for a coach, and I worked with David a few times a year when needed or when he was at a tournament.  He would always stop over to check on me and see how I was doing


In 1996, chasing the top 125 I was struggling to keep my card due tomputting and called David from the Disney tournament.  He invited me over to lake Nona and spent a couple hours with me Tuesday of that tournment and I went on to finish t7th to lock up my card.
I went back to Lake Nona Monday to offer a quite sizable check in thanks for all he had done for me.  I had been through a lot of difficult times and he had always helped which got me to that point and I could finally do something to repay all his support.  He did not accept the check, told me some very personal thoughts about my journey


8 years or so ago, I contacted David after many years away from playing.  I was looking for guidance in my teaching career.  Once again I found myself flying to Florida for a coaching seminar and time with David on the range, once again pushing me towards a new level in a different career


Outside of family, David Leadbetter and Dr David Wright have done more for me in my golf career and personally than I can tell you Tom.

[Pat Burke]

Tom


Love hearing what you said about Mr Dye too

[Ronald Montesano]

I hope that those of us on the periphery of this game, know how fortunate we are to have folks like Burke, Doak, Warne, Young, et al., who are 112% invested in the game, with the scars and the tales on public display.


I recall 2013 being this type of year for me: 3 big events were on Long Island-High School Golf Championship at Bethpage, US Women's at Sebonack, Walker Cup at NGLA. I was able to walk some holes with one of the Sebonack architects; he was stretched so thin that week, but even without knowing me from a load of coal, he had time for me and I appreciated it. I also had the opportunity to visit The Bridge and tour the course with the golf professional. I shot photo after photo, while we chewed the fat and he explained the work that they planned to do, to bring the course in line with its topography and its potential. Again, he didn't have to spend that time with me, but did he ever.


Both gentlemen anticipate opportunities, rather than being gobsmacked by them. I'm not sure if that's a trait or a developed skill; I'm holding out hope for the later.

[Pat Burke]

Ronald,


It’s been a strange journey in golf for me.  Writing what I posted earlier got me thinking about all those people that have helped, encouraged or actively supported me in different times


My experiences in golf personally have put me in relationships with unbelievable people. I hope I paynit forwRd as well as I have gained from it
This site is one of those things.  I love golf course architecture and truly appreciate that “those that do” share their talents for us to learn