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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2020, 09:38:02 AM »
"I can assure you there is not a more dedicated group of individuals who mainly do it for the love of it, and not the financial rewards."

Is Leadbetter referencing nurses?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2020, 10:16:16 AM »
Brandel should realize the time, passion, study, commitment and the amount of devotion that coaches put in to help their students succeed. I say this because I and my assistant Adam Schreiber spent countless hours in the late ’80s and early ’90s on the range helping Brandel to try to reach his goals. It certainly was not for the money, as I think the check is still in the mail.

I'm guessing this is universal.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2020, 10:24:57 AM »
Before Leadbetter accuses Chamblee as being a failure as a golfer he may want to consider how much money he has taken from students who never won on tour. Chamblee also earned a degree in communications while on at golf scholarship at the University of Texas.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandel_Chamblee

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2020, 10:46:15 AM »
Brandel should realize the time, passion, study, commitment and the amount of devotion that coaches put in to help their students succeed. I say this because I and my assistant Adam Schreiber spent countless hours in the late ’80s and early ’90s on the range helping Brandel to try to reach his goals. It certainly was not for the money, as I think the check is still in the mail.

I'm guessing this is universal.


not universal, but it tells you all you need to know about Brandel.
As an aspiring player/teacher in that era, I always paid for lessons, never negotiated or assumed anything.
Many instructors would then discount future lessons on their own when I immediately whipped out my wallet to pay, or spend extra time with me, and find time for me in their busy books.
Many times I was driving 5-10 hours each way on a day off, then turning around and driving back in time for work the next day-so I wanted the instructor fully engaged and motivated, and fully aware of my committment and respect for his time.


You get what you pay for(or offer to) and sometimes it's the difference between them picking up the phone or not, even though every instructor I've ever know does more than his share of pro bono lessons.


I've maintained that philosophy to this day as I work with juniors, pros and locals-when they whip out $60 in small bills meticulously precounted out before retreating to their 2002 Ford Focus, you can usually find a way to make that hour turn into two(maybe not consecutive), or allow them to hang around and use the facility while you eavesdrop on their practice-and invite them to come back for some pro bono work or reduced rates should they continue to show passion and dedication.


I worked with Leadbetter on my own game during the era mentioned and, despite being the most in demand coach in golf at the time, he was always completely engaged and incredibly reasonable in his pricing of mini schools(often with Tour players) and private lessons at that time. He is and remains a class act.


As a student,I've always subscribed to the theory that by the time you've heard of a teacher, their rates are no longer negotiable(by the student) and any effort to do so is a turn off. Those same teachers will then turn around and charge far less than one would've ever negotiated (for a dedicated and respectful student).






"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2020, 10:47:00 AM »
Golf teachers are marketed much like golf designers...sort of runs parallel ....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2020, 10:51:38 AM »
Brandel should realize the time, passion, study, commitment and the amount of devotion that coaches put in to help their students succeed. I say this because I and my assistant Adam Schreiber spent countless hours in the late ’80s and early ’90s on the range helping Brandel to try to reach his goals. It certainly was not for the money, as I think the check is still in the mail.

I'm guessing this is universal.


not universal, but it tells you all you need to know about Brandel.
As an aspiring player/teacher in that era, I always paid for lessons, never negotiated or assumed anything.
Many instructors would then discount future lessons on their own when I immediately whipped out my wallet to pay, or spend extra time with me, and find time for me in their busy books.
Many times I was driving 5-10 hours each way on a day off, then turning around and driving back in time for work the next day-so I wanted the instructor fully engaged and motivated, and fully aware of my committment and respect for his time.


You get what you pay for(or offer to) and sometimes it's the difference between them picking up the phone or not, even though every instructor I've ever know does more than his share of pro bono lessons.


I've maintained that philosophy to this day as I work with juniors, pros and locals-when they whip out $60 in small bills meticulously precounted out before retreating to their 2002 Ford Focus, you can usually find a way to make that hour turn into two(maybe not consecutive), or allow them to hang around and use the facility while you eavesdrop on their practice-and invite them to come back for some pro bono work or reduced rates should they continue to show passion and dedication.


I worked with Leadbetter on my own game during the era mentioned and, despite being the most in demand coach in golf at the time, he was always completely engaged and incredibly reasonable in his pricing of mini schools(often with Tour players) and private lessons at that time. He is and remains a class act.


As a student,I've always subscribed to the theory that by the time you've heard of a teacher, their rates are no longer negotiable(by the student) and any effort to do so is a turn off. Those same teachers will then turn around and charge far less than one would've ever negotiated (for a dedicated and respectful student).
Jeff,In many cases you can substitute the word architect for teacher in your post above and it works the same...but you might substitute Ginella for Chamblee  ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2020, 10:52:47 AM »
Golf teachers are marketed much like golf designers...sort of runs parallel ....


How's that?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2020, 11:02:41 AM »
Golf teachers are marketed much like golf designers...sort of runs parallel ....


How's that?
A teacher goes along just teaching average players and pros and then he gets the right player and he wins big and other players come around and media picks up because it sells...you have stated a few times how good PD was for ya...It works the same for the big teachers...We have a local teacher here, John Tillery, good young guy who is an excellent teacher.  He was teaching Kevin Kisner and next thing you know he has 5 or 6 on tour and is just beginning to gain reach stride on tour.  However he still seems to treat/teach the locals the same when around.  But I guarantee a Chamblee will do him the same way .
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2020, 11:05:09 AM »
The outrage over Doak's recent comments about the first 18 at Bandon does ring a bell. Instead of respecting his credibility to make such statements we blame it all on an overgrown ego.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2020, 11:13:17 AM »
The outrage over Doak's recent comments about the first 18 at Bandon does ring a bell. Instead of respecting his credibility to make such statements we blame it all on an overgrown ego.


I haven't even looked at that thread since I made that comment, so I've bypassed the outrage.  [I saw JC Jones' name as the last poster on it, so I expected it would be overblown.]  But how is it outrageous to say I wouldn't be playing Bandon Dunes if I were back at the resort?  I didn't say it for anyone else, just for myself. 


I doubt David Kidd plays Old Macdonald much, either.


People's outrage meters need to be adjusted, ffs.  It's not like I said all other architects are con artists.  Although, I have questioned in the past whether there are really that many who believe in restoring old courses, or whether some are just trying to keep their businesses afloat by doing it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2020, 11:16:36 AM »

A teacher goes along just teaching average players and pros and then he gets the right player and he wins big and other players come around and media picks up because it sells...you have stated a few times how good PD was for ya...It works the same for the big teachers...We have a local teacher here, John Tillery, good young guy who is an excellent teacher.  He was teaching Kevin Kisner and next thing you know he has 5 or 6 on tour and is just beginning to gain reach stride on tour.  However he still seems to treat/teach the locals the same when around.  But I guarantee a Chamblee will do him the same way .


Isn't that true for most businesses?  You work and work until you do something that gains recognition, and it pushes you forward [with a promotion in the corporate world, or with better opportunities if you're an independent contractor] ?


It doesn't have to gain recognition on TV or in magazines, it could just be word of mouth.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2020, 11:25:43 AM »

A teacher goes along just teaching average players and pros and then he gets the right player and he wins big and other players come around and media picks up because it sells...you have stated a few times how good PD was for ya...It works the same for the big teachers...We have a local teacher here, John Tillery, good young guy who is an excellent teacher.  He was teaching Kevin Kisner and next thing you know he has 5 or 6 on tour and is just beginning to gain reach stride on tour.  However he still seems to treat/teach the locals the same when around.  But I guarantee a Chamblee will do him the same way .


Isn't that true for most businesses?  You work and work until you do something that gains recognition, and it pushes you forward [with a promotion in the corporate world, or with better opportunities if you're an independent contractor] ?


It doesn't have to gain recognition on TV or in magazines, it could just be word of mouth.
Agree...and I don't have a problem with it.  My comments were in reference to Chamblee's comments.  He may not care for how Leadbetter teaches but the guy has a very good following.  Same way with these writers and golf design...whether we care for the designs of a Jones or a Fazio or a Doak or a Hanse or Nicklaus,. You and all the others mentioned have garnered the recognition.  And much of the time the writer really has no clue what he is talking about other than liking the maintenance level etc..or whatever...All I'm saying is a writer or announcer needs to just acknowledge the success unless he is there to instigate and Golf Channel likes for Chamblee to instigate...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2020, 11:30:38 AM »
My point being that Chamblee has earned the right to instigate. The counter media promotes him as just another $100 haircut.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2020, 11:33:57 AM »
My point being that Chamblee has earned the right to instigate. The counter media promotes him as just another $100 haircut.
He spends 2 hours in make up...and it really is nice hair...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2020, 11:39:48 AM »
I could spend 3 hrs in makeup and still not get a gig at SeaWorld. Someone gave BC some great advice when they told him to get his degree in communications. Better yet, he listened and did the work.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2020, 11:46:00 AM »


 My comments were in reference to Chamblee's comments.  He may not care for how Leadbetter teaches but the guy has a very good following.  Same way with these writers and golf design...whether we care for the designs of a Jones or a Fazio or a Doak or a Hanse or Nicklaus,. You and all the others mentioned have garnered the recognition.  And much of the time the writer really has no clue what he is talking about other than liking the maintenance level etc..or whatever...All I'm saying is a writer or announcer needs to just acknowledge the success unless he is there to instigate and Golf Channel likes for Chamblee to instigate...


Oh, if you're just complaining about The Golf Channel, I'll agree with that.


It's interesting how different magazines are from TV in this regard.  GOLF DIGEST would NEVER let a columnist say something that would offend its big staff of teaching professionals.  Heck, I even had a column rejected from THE MET GOLFER a couple of months ago for talking smack about consultants, like you and I do here.




TV is the opposite, though.  The Golf Channel is the same as with cable news . . . they're on air 24/7 so they have to put out a huge pile of content.  And the easiest way to add to the pile is say something controversial and let the shit fly.  It also generates free publicity that promotes the network . . . so far, everyone in this discussion is blaming Brandel Chamblee, and nobody is blaming The Golf Channel, so it's all gravy for them.  If it gets too loud, they'll throw him under the bus.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2020, 12:39:18 PM »
A lot of things seem more annoying (or at least not half as pleasant) these days -- including Brandel's 'hard edge' opinions and expansive pontifications and combative stances, which now strike me as mostly unnecessary and self serving. I've never appreciated the cool/laid back, gentle styles of the Dave Marrs or Ken Venturis more than I do today. I've got enough of my own neuroses, I sure won't need any of Feherty's jumpy energy when golf returns.     

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2020, 12:44:44 PM »
Brandel Chamblee rhymes with [no] credibility. He’s a big enough tool that he should wear a Black & Decker hat to cover his gently tousled mane.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2020, 01:00:01 PM »
The ability to keep people employed is a talent that should be celebrated.

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2020, 01:10:11 PM »
Before Leadbetter accuses Chamblee as being a failure as a golfer he may want to consider how much money he has taken from students who never won on tour. Chamblee also earned a degree in communications while on at golf scholarship at the University of Texas.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandel_Chamblee


Are you saying that good coaching should guarantee wins? I sure hope not.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2020, 01:17:17 PM »
No, I’m saying that Chamblee knows more about how it feels to win and fail on Tour than Leadbetter.

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2020, 01:22:52 PM »
The ability to keep people employed is a talent that should be celebrated.
Even when your talent is to be deliberately controversial by saying stupid things? I choose to hold a higher ground. Then again TGC obviously benefits from Chamblee's shtick and chooses to ignore the ample impact to his and their credibility. Do you think that if he was an on air personality when Arnold Palmer owned the network that this would be allowed?

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2020, 01:24:32 PM »
No, I’m saying that Chamblee knows more about how it feels to win and fail on Tour than Leadbetter.


Odd equivalence John. I don't see how that has any influence on Ledbetter's teaching credentials.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee/Leadbetter... could design be substituted?
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2020, 01:28:41 PM »
David points out:

"I would say on balance, though, having taught seven World No. 1 players and players who have won 23 majors, that I would consider myself to have had a fairly successful career."


My only question at this point is.  What the fuck has Brandel done other than fling his hair about like a Shampoo model?