Replacing your favorite courses' worst greens/holes?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Had an interesting discussion yesterday (yes, mostly with myself in self isolation.....) based on the premise of renovating a course with limited funds.  So it came up that if anything can be improved at least somewhat, and people naturally rank everything (even in a beauty contest you still pick the best). 


So, what 1-2-4-6 (the worst, the worst on each nine, to the worst 25% or 33%) what greens (or holes) would those be.


The discussion gets a bit more personal for architects when renovating one of their own courses.  I am drawing up a long term master plan for both courses up at Giant's Ridge, and have decided the Legend needs more work, since the Quarry is still top ranked.  Legend is fairly high as well, but if we want two equal courses, some design improvements are probably needed, so the question came up.  After some thought and limiting to 4/25%:


The 5th (just a poorly executed idea, which we will change to a model based on Augusta 18 (which is close)
The 6th, a poorly designed (if I am honest) that doesn't really function as a Redan and has some other circulation problems
The 16th, which runs near a beautiful lake, but the green was never put as close to the water and view as it might have been.
The 18th, which I made 338 and provided a valley of sin, but which most golfers thought was too easy for a finish, so we found a new back tee to extend to 405 and changed the green to an entirely new concept (in plan, no construction has taken place, of course)



Interesting concept for everyone to pick on their favorite course, no?


And/or,  for discussion purposes here, how about starting with something everyone here probably knows, what of CB Mac's templates is your least favorite 1, 2, 4 or 6?


Have to start with the Biarritz.  I like it, have built some, but honestly, can't really play them as intended with current equipment, and really wonder if it ever worked as intended.


Second would be the double plateau green.


Discuss templates and one of your favorite courses, to pass the time during self isolation.

[Jeff_Brauer]

A little too esoteric and complicated, I guess!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Number nine at Ballyhack was always controversial. Laying up off the tee on a par five is always distasteful. There was a bunker that was placed in the center of the fairway. There was a little strip of fairway, about ten yards wide to the left of the bunker but nothing to the right.





If the lay of the land was a bit different the bunker it could have been a principal's nose, but there was no fairway to the right and nobody can really hit it over the bunker. It just called for a layup.


Over the winter the hole was changed. The bunker was moved to the right and now there is room to hit a driver to the left of the bunker. I have not seen the finished product but I know the change will be applauded by one and all.


Maybe Wade Whitehead could post a couple pictures.

[Pete_Pittock]

For those of you that know the short par 4 13th at The Reserve Vineyards - North I would advocate lowering the fronting mound by about two feet with the apex moved back about 3-5 yards to lessen the slope. Think it was based on Royal Adelaide 3rd. Photo to come Top photo scroll right. My shots is usually about 80 yards, crossing it at a diagonal.

[Tim Martin]

I would like to rebuild the Redan hole green at Yale which is number 13. A sharper slope on the right side giving the green more cant would make a considerable difference in having it function effectively. Turf conditions which lean “soft” also inhibit the ball from sweeping right to left unless the shot is hit deep into the green. I would rather see this fixed before and if they rebuild the 3rd green in its original location.

[archie_struthers]

 


Now this is fun!  Great query..Tim I haven't been to Yale in 40 years (ouch) so I can't remember the intricacies enough but your idea sounds good. We will have to see if Sweeney agrees!


So I fix the third green at Twisted Dune by making it downhill with super chargers all over the fairway to allow my older friends a runway to the green surface. I envision the green as a oblong saucer that collects a running shot in the front but repels anything  that flies in even a little bit hot over the back.  Then I would go straight to the fifth green and take out the two green side bunkers, raise the surface and make it really quirky as befits an Irish -Scottish motif.


NO Mike Cirba I am not changing the 18th hole , you just don't understand how subtle it really is !

[Joe Bausch]

Now this is fun!  Great query..Tim I haven't been to Yale in 40 years (ouch) so I can't remember the intricacies enough but your idea sounds good. We will have to see if Sweeney agrees!


So I fix the third green at Twisted Dune by making it downhill with super chargers all over the fairway to allow my older friends a runway to the green surface. I envision the green as a oblong saucer that collects a running shot in the front but repels anything  that flies in even a little bit hot over the back.  Then I would go straight to the fifth green and take out the two green side bunkers, raise the surface and make it really quirky as befits an Irish -Scottish motif.


NO Mike Cirba I am not changing the 18th hole , you just don't understand how subtle it really is !

For those of you that haven't played Twisted Dune, you can take my "virtual tour" here:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/TwistedDune/index.html

[Ally Mcintosh]

I would like to rebuild the Redan hole green at Yale which is number 13. A sharper slope on the right side giving the green more cant would make a considerable difference in having it function effectively. Turf conditions which lean “soft” also inhibit the ball from sweeping right to left unless the shot is hit deep into the green. I would rather see this fixed before and if they rebuild the 3rd green in its original location.

I’ve only played one round at Yale, in the fine company of Pat M and Mark B.


Loved the course but was disappointed with the 13th as a Redan. It was a lovely drop-shot Par-3 but in itself, a drop-shot is somewhat counter-intuitive to the playing characteristics of a Redan.


Jeff: I think a Biarritz can work really well on a genuinely firm and fast links course downwind.

[MCirba]

NO Mike Cirba I am not changing the 18th hole , you just don't understand how subtle it really is !

Archie,


I'm just trying to make your 18th great. 


Perhaps I'm just fond of giving the higher handicapper/shorter hitter something interesting to consider on a long par four besides trying to slog a three wood as far as they can to get as close to the green as they're able.  For better players a center bunker say 30 yards short would be something to factor after a poor drive or into a headwind. 


Maybe I just have a unhealthy romanticism of the 18th at Muirfield but perhaps someday...someday...we'll share a few IPA's and we'll go out and I'll help you dig it. 


Stay safe and be well until then!

[Garland Bayley]

My club has an uphill par 3 that is primarily there because we have a shortage of property. OB runs down the left side, and shortly behind the tee OB makes a right angle and runs away from the hole. I would like to make a reverse road hole there. Because of the right angle of the OB we could set tees back further so that the tee shot has to carry the corner of the OB. The part of the OB that would be carried is a rain water run off retention pond, so no property would be further endangered by the carry across the OB section. Then I would add a road hole pot bunker to the right front of the green to complicate the approaches of those who did not challenge the OB carry (remember this is a reverse road hole).

Green committee records have recommendations from someone claiming to be a golf architect whose primary suggestion on most holes of the course is to plant trees behind the greens to give definition to the approach shot. This advice means there is a row of three Douglas firs planted behind the green which necessitated running the cart path beyond the tees for the next hole and then have it run back across the fairway of the next hole further down. I would have them take out the three trees and route the cart path on the shortest route behind the reverse road hole green and before the tees of the next hole.

Therefore, we would have a hole with a tee shot over OB, a road behind the green, and a "road hole bunker". The biggest impediment to doing this is that it would cause crossing tee shots on two holes. But, since we have limited property we already have crossing tee shots on the other nine holes.

I explained all this to Pete Pittock one day when he was over for a game, and he gave is typical rolled eyes reaction that he typically gives me when he's not telling me to use my indoor voice. 

EDIT: I meant to also mention that the golf architect led the club to also plant Douglas firs behind the 9th green, thereby eventually blocking the view of Mt. Hood from the club's dining room, and from its grill. I can't even get the club to take down those trees that devalue the property value of the club. 

[Garland Bayley]

...
Jeff: I think a Biarritz can work really well on a genuinely firm and fast links course downwind.

Like 8 at Old MacDonald.

[Gib_Papazian]

If get one - and only one - it would be #12 at NGLA . . . and I mean top to bottom. First off, the tee is all the way to the right and far back, completely defeating the strategies and aesthetic of the hole.


Just walk directly behind the Double Plateau and you'll find an old teeing area there. NOW, the orientation of the fairway bunkers on the left side makes perfect sense, with an echelon arrangement - and the bunkering on the right side of the landing area ties in perfectly with the hole's geometry - provided the fairway is running hard and fast of course!


Year ago, Professor Karl showed me some plasticine models of the putting surfaces - I believe they were done by Raynor, but of course, cannot be certain. The green on #12 (last time I was there) is shit - it looks like a muni gone wrong - but the model identified as for #12 is this intricate horseshoe with multiple tiers and fall-offs.


The hole looks like a brainless Green Chairman was blindly set on adding length, but lacked the powers of observation or creativity to stay faithful to the intent of the design - so once they rectify this glaring deficiency, I see no reason not to switch-out the putting surface contours to something with a little pizzazz.


Now, in the interest of full disclosure, we never did find hard evidence the plasticine model was ever built on the ground, but the fact remains - the putting surface on #12 is the least interesting on the golf course - and makes even less sense (if that is even possible) given the ham-handed location of the tee.


I'll wave my wand and give myself a 2nd one - although not as egregious: The green complex on O-Club (Lake Course) #5 would be vastly improved by erasing the bunker on the right side of the green and leaving the mound closely mowed to introduce a kick-point to play the ground game on approach.


The putting surface slides hard from right-to-left, so the entire arrangement is awkward and counter-intuitive. This change would hardly effect tournament professionals, but would encourage all sorts of creative shot options from the fairway.


The same (opposite side) would work well on greenside left of #4; the collar was extended some time back and introduces the same strategic interest, but the bunker needs to be rebuilt and extended further into the fairway to put an exclamation point on the choices presented. Of course, the overhanging branches on the left side completely contradict the mowing lines, but when dealing with plebeian mentalities, one step at a time.


Okay, while I am ranting, here is another simple fix on Lake course #18. That bird-shit tree, growing out of the right side of the green complex is an aesthetic abomination. If the flow of the course were a brawny, powerful symphony, finishing off with a punk rock non-sequitur leaves a poor taste.


But for some reason, the savants who run the club - for whom wisdom will die with their passing - seem to think a crooked, bent-over, twisted pine tree is somehow a sacred secular object that (politically) cannot be removed.


The last time I was summoned to give my opinion on this or that - quite a while ago, since I'm a ghost there - one of the geniuses kept insisting the tree on #18 was "an integral part of the club's history because Tommy Nakajima had to climb it to identify his ball."


When I gently told him (monstrous ego, like most social climbing idiots) that Nakajima's tree had fallen down in the mid-90's - and this tree was actually a sucker that nobody had planted on purpose - he then said that without the tree, #18 would be "too easy."


I've got a supply of copper nails and willing helpers, so stay tuned . . . .         
   


 
   


   

[archie_struthers]

 


Gib you are a true wordsmith...loved the post !  like the ideas more

[Pete_Pittock]

Garland,
I assume we are taking about 14, which is a strong uphill par 3 of 175 yds with a tough, tough green. My opinion was (I believe)
that you would make the hole simpler in relationship to par as a short par 4, plus problems for a wild driver. If you succeed it would be the only template hole.  But keep fighting for that tree removal.

[Garland Bayley]

Pete,

As you know, every hole we have is problems for the wild driver.

It would add to our existing template hole, 16, the alps hole.

And of course 17 is a long Golden Bell hole. It just needs some azaleas planted on the back side of the 18 tee.