[Tommy Williamsen]

A couple years ago I mentioned that my club (CC of Woodmore formerly Prince George’s CC)
in its first location was designed by Donald Ross. The club’s own history states this. Immediately, I was told that DR was not, in fact, the designer, William Flynn was. There were competing histories. That begs the questions, “Do clubs really know their own history?” “How much can we trust a club’s understanding of its own history?”
I remember playing a course in Ohio that proudly proclaimed that it was designed by Devereux Evert. I mentioned that they were more than likely designed by Devereux Emmet.
My answer would be take a club’s own history with a grain of salt.

[Joe Bausch]

In my experience, some know their history well and accurately.  Some much less so.

So many Clubs have had clubhouse fires where records were destroyed.  And sometimes records (in particular club minutes) have simply been lost.

[Joe_Tucholski]

My answer would be take a club’s own history with a grain of salt.

In my experience two people can experience the same events and have very different interpretations of what occurred.  This is compounded when people weren't actually present and when most people don't really care what happened.

What does it take to have a course designed by Donald Ross?  Did it require a visit, did it require plans, did it merely require a recommendation?

If a course was once agreed to be a Donald Ross course when does it cease to be a Donald Ross course?  For example Pinehurst #4.

Edited:  Removing HTML formatting.  The site really doesn't like the new version of edge.

[Paul Rudovsky]

My guess is the answer is all over the map.  I certainly do not remember clubs having "historians" 40 years ago...I think that position came about with the wave of 100th anniversaries that started 40 years ago and surged big time over the last 20 years.  Driven I guess by the opportunity to make $$ by selling anniversary books.


The most interesting story I have heard (actually big WSJ article) along these lines was regarding Bloomfield Hills CC north of Detroit...clearly the most exclusive club historically in the Detroit area (which 50 years ago was probably the 5th largest city in the USA).  They were preparing to do a 100th anniversary book (as I recall) about 40 years ago and in going thru old board minutes and invoices, found that Donald Ross had made a proposal that was not adopted and never implemented...yet somehow Ross' drawings were prominently displayed in the clubhouse for decades, and the club proudly considered Ross to be an important part of its history.  Turns out that Tom Bendelow (not too shabby) "staked out" a nine holer in 1909 and then in 1912 some guy named H. S. Colt modified those 9 and expanded it to 18 holes.  Wonder how Ross (who did a lot of brilliant designs) would come out vs Colt in a survey of the greatest architects in history from an audience like GCA.

[Tim Martin]

Club histories became more relevant as a marketing tool when the trail led to a famous Golden Age designer. I think Paul’s prior post has the timeline correct and as he said more specifically in the last twenty years.

[Greg Smith]

In Dan Wexler's book (I think it's the Lost Links one with the brown cover, not Missing Links) he states that the original Prince Georges CC was by Ross, but admits there are strong stylistic hints that point to later work by Flynn.  Just by looking at his map, I think he's referring to those bruising par-4 holes in the woods on the southern part of the property. 

[Paul Rudovsky]

here is the actual WSJ article...found it on line...soem parts of mob recollection were faulty...but overall consistent and a remarkable story:


Country Clubs Dig Up Their Golf HistoriesWhy older clubs are exploring their past








Bloomfield Hills Country Club outside Detroit uncoveredasurprising part of its past. In the foreground is the eighth green; at left, the ninth green.BLOOMFIELD HILLS COUNTRY CLUB


By
John Paul NewportDec. 13, 2013 11:16 pm ET






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Bloomfield Hills Country Club, an intensely private golf club with historic ties to the Detroit automotive industry, last year found something mildly scandalous in the back of an old safe in its accountant's office. No, it wasn't secret recordings of the government's bailout negotiations. It was yellowed minutes of club meetings from the 1910s that proved conclusively the course was designed by H. S. "Harry" Colt.In and of itself, that is not a bad thing. Colt, an Englishman, was one of the early 20th century's most revered designers, whose credits in Great Britain include Sunningdale, Wentworth and Royal Portrush, as well as the redesigns we know today at Muirfield and Royal Liverpool, both British Open venues. Links magazine recently ranked him the greatest golf architect of all time, ahead of Alister MacKenzie (Augusta National, Cypress Point), Donald Ross (Pinehurst) and A.W. Tillinghast (Winged Foot).Even so, it was a bit of an embarrassment for Bloomfield Hills to discover only now the truth about its course's provenance. Most members believed Ross had designed their course. Partly that is because Ross did do a lot of work in the Detroit area, including both courses at nearby Oakland Hills, site of nine major championships. A Ross course was prestigious, and Bloomfield Hills is about nothing if not prestige.As many old-line clubs these days pass or approach their centennials—the so-called golden age of golf architecture stretched from the 1910s into the 1930s—they are excavating crumbling documents and photos from their archives, commissioning club histories and sometimes restoring their courses in the spirit of the original designers."Heritage sells," said Bradley Klein, architecture critic for Golfweek and a consultant to clubs on their restoration efforts. His book "Wide Open Fairways" includes an 18-page Restorationist Manifesto. "It's a good business marketing strategy for a club to claim a historical place for itself," he writes.The case of Bloomfield Hills is unusual in that the wealthy club has no need to sell itself, but it does typify the identity issues that sometimes crop up when clubs peer into their past. "You have to remember that historically our boards were run by automotive guys who didn't care about the architectural history. They just wanted this private little gem," said Walter Schwartz, the club's current president.Bloomfield Hills' membership has always included chief executives and other top brass from the Big Three auto makers. Former GM chief Roger Smith lived off the sixth fairway. "These guys had big egos. Their personalities were much bigger than Donald Ross or Harry Colt, " Schwartz said.One reason the Ross belief persisted was the hand-drawn architectural renderings of every hole on the course, by Ross himself, that for many years hung on the walls of the stairway connecting the pro shop and the men's locker room. Apparently few members studied them. They depict changes that Ross proposed for the course but were never implemented: A crossbunker on 12 that never saw the light of day; a waste area on the par-three 17th.Thirty years ago a longtime member named Doug Colwell stumbled upon evidence that Colt had designed Bloomfield Hills but didn't get far in his attempts to change the prevailing wisdom about Ross. To be fair, this was in an era when few golfers paid much attention to who designed the courses they played, and certainly before old masters like Ross, MacKenzie, Tillinghast and Colt were lionized as artists. In some ways the culture at Bloomfield Hills hasn't changed that much. Despite being a golf-only club, a third of its members never play a round of golf there in any given year and fewer than half play six rounds. Still, in the wake of the club's 2009 centennial, interest in historical matters picked up among the club's hard-core players, which included Schwartz and green committee chairman Jeff Bergeron. They hired restoration specialist Keith Foster to develop a master plan for the course and golf historian Phil Young to track down the truth about Colt. It didn't take Young long to find the long-forgotten minutes hidden deep in the safe, as well as old newspaper articles that confirmed Colt's involvement. In 1913, Colt convinced the club to buy 50 additional acres so he could design a complete new course on top of the existing 12-hole one. The routing was an early instance of the plan Colt used later at Muirfield and elsewhere: The front nine proceeds clockwise around the periphery of the property; the back nine moves counterclockwise around the interior.As for the Ross drawings, Young found that the club twice hired him to propose improvements, in 1922 and 1936, but never followed up with the actual work. That cleared the deck for Foster to plan his restoration, in Schwartz's words, "in keeping with what H.S. Colt would have done had he come 100 years later." That includes wider fairways but with more alternate routes to the green, fewer trees and softer, more nuanced bunkers that splash and droop in the style Colt favored."For those of us who really care about architecture, this is extraordinarily exciting. It's something to be cherished," Bergeron said. As best as can be determined, Bloomfield Hills is the only intact, solo Colt course in the U.S. During the last of Colt's two known visits to North America, in 1913, he also helped route Pine Valley in New Jersey, the perennial No.1 course in the world, and designed two courses in Canada: the Toronto Golf Club and the Hamilton Golf and Country Club, which hosts the Canadian Open. The original Colt course at the Country Club of Detroit no longer exists. With Ross, he codesigned the still-going, all-male Old Elm course in Chicago. Colt's partner, Charles Alison, designed many U.S. courses.Uncovering uniqueness of one kind or another may be the main value to researching the history of clubs—not just private ones but public, as well. Most clubs built before the real-estate-inspired boom that started in the late 1980s have some kind of interesting past: well-known founding members, amateur events won by nobodies who later became famous. You can bet that the earliest municipal courses in metropolitan areas have tales to tell, and probably photos to attest to the legendary pros and celebrities and other characters who played there over the years. "With every force in the world gnawing away at the time people have for golf, clubs ought to be doing everything they can to become the kind of place people really want to spend time at and be members," said David Normoyle, a former historian at the U.S. Golf Association's museum and now a historical consultant to clubs and courses. "The golf course and the food and the clubhouse are big parts of that, of course, but so is the history. People want to feel part of something bigger than themselves."One way to start digging into a club's history is by assembling photos and drawings, if available, of a course's earliest days. Aerial views are usually available from government agencies such as soil and water conservation districts, he said. Then put them on display somehow central, such as the grill room, so players can engage in golf's oldest and most fun argument: why the course is the way it is, and how it could be better."The great thing about the past is that it's already done, it's paid for," Normoyle said. "You might as well take advantage."—Write to John Paul Newport at golfjournal@wsj.com

[Tim Martin]

Paul-Despite the club being golf only it’s surprising to see the low participation rates. It shows how important the social component can be as a stand alone. That’s a good read.

[Thomas Dai]

Joe makes a very good point about records being lost in clubhouse fires. I can think of quite a few clubhouses that have burnt down no doubt taking treasure troves of historical details with them.


Now that we have easy to use digital photos and scans etc I would urge all clubs to photo or scan or video all their documents and take photos etc of all their wall hangings, memorabilia etc. And then ensure that the photo/scan/video records aren’t kept in the Clubhouse!


I would also like to make an additional point which I shall refer to as ‘taking records with a pinch of salt’. Having spent a considerable amount of time over the last few years researching the records and history for a specific project I would also suggest that whoever writes the records controls the history. By this I don’t mean subterfuge more that things like minutes of meetings whilst written to allegedly record what was said and agreed oftentimes are worded in such a way as to protect those involved at the time and then decades down the line such minutes are often seen as accurate gospel when they might not be. Hence taking some records with a pinch of salt.


And records are of course not just nice to have for historical interest purposes but plans and sketches and old photos are a wonderful source of information when it comes to restoring/renovating a course or showing the members how things used to be before say, greensite or bunker changes occurred excess tree planting took place.


Atb

[Tommy Williamsen]

Paging Mark Rowlinson. Mark you have written a number of club histories. Maybe you could share some of the challenges you experienced.

[Mark_Fine]

The answer in general is NO they don’t.  You might find this surprising but the clubhouses of many classic courses burned down and their records with them.  I have found that the far majority of most golfers/members don’t know anything about the history of the course they are playing or even who designed it.

[V. Kmetz]

I have written two commemorative club histories, a 50 year and 20(25) year edition; they were both complicated, but in each case the club itself was only a documentary souce, the real "history" and "truth" of it was delivered from old members' personal files themselves.  This has been the case for researching journalism pieces or gathering materials for a "pitch" to


My experience is that older members' club troves paint the more accurate character, which the hard documents contextualize; I know that sounds inverted but it somehow is true. 


As we now cross into the era when clubs of the 70s celebrate 50 and the post 1995 clubs approach their 25th, individual clubs ought to gather their histories before they disappear.



Besides the 50 year opportunity, one motivating reason the first was commissioned, was the recognition on all our parts that some members were crossing into old ages, and sure enough within two years of the project completion, six massive contributors to the project were no longer with us.  If it weren't for those six, there is no earthly way the project could have been done the way it was. I literally cleaned two old members attics ( I am still skeeved by the silverfish, cobwebs and rodent droppings) but the retrieval was indispensible


For the 20-25 year commemorative, though the club had much better starting "files," and professional photos, again, the indvidual members/founders had the real goods... from here on out, any history that is covered or written will have the benefit of their capture.


That is my highest recommendation for anyone wanting to knwo or wanting their fellow members to know, or the public to know...is to gather documents from the old guard and execute a history project as early as one can be supported; classic clubs who always recalled their history in annivesraies have the greatest trove of materials for evermore.


cheers   vk

[Adrian_Stiff]

A lot of clubs don't have any idea who designed their course, or even care.

[Tim_Cronin]

Thomas Dai and V. Kmetz make great points.


History is written by the winners and so are club minutes. The phrase "there was a discussion" in the minutes often means a heated argument over a contentious issue, but you'll rarely find the give and take of the argument and what point might have swayed the issue of, say, a course renovation. There, the old members often come through. And yes, they often have photos of the club and other items worth covering in a book.


I've researched and written several club histories. One club was wrong about its original architect and pleased to find the real architect was of better pedigree than the supposed original; another wasn't sure if the revising architect had been on the premises. The answer to both came from digging through old newspapers on microfilm (and, in the latter case, he was). The research is marginally easier today via several online archives, but not everything is online. Sometimes the most obscure newspaper in a city yields the biggest gem.


The key is to get the memories of the old members on tape and paper right away. Like V., I've talked to key people early in a project, and not all were around to see the book in their hands. At least their memories are in it.

[Michael Wolf]

By coincidence, I've been working my way through a stack of club histories that I carried home from a recent visit to Australia. Clubs, or at least authors, in the Southern hemisphere certainly seem to approach their club history assignments with a level of frankness not usually read in the American and UK efforts! A few examples...

- An entire chapter in the Titirangi history covering some members dislike for their club professional, Aubrey Jolly, and the subsequent two decade long battle to remove him. But this wasn't even the biggest battle that the book covers - It's followed with a direct treatment of the effort and abandonment of the idea to build a new clubhouse in the mid 70's. Both incidents resulted in mass resignations and wholesale board changes.

- The 125th Royal Adelaide book, which doesn't pull any punches in describing Peter Thomson's role in preparing the course for a not so successful 1998 Oz Open, and a subsequent roller coaster of events that didn't calm down until Tom Doak was hired to restore order to the course in 2012.

- A divisive shower renovation project at Yarra Yarra in 1975, followed by a much less humorous embezzlement scandal that same year.

Now if that region of the golfing world were only as liberal with their distribution of free golf tees and pencils...

[Paul Rudovsky]

Michael--

NO NO NO...the Aussies and the Brits have it absolutely right by making members pay for tees.  45 years ago there was no USA courses that gave away tees...so you picked them up after your tee shot (and your fairway shot if you were cheating ).
[/size][/color]
[/size]Leaving them behind just letters the tee boxes and damages the mower blades...absolute stupid waste.  Free goods are given zero value by their recipients...[/color]

[jeffwarne]

Michael--

NO NO NO...the Aussies and the Brits have it absolutely right by making members pay for tees.  45 years ago there was no USA courses that gave away tees...so you picked them up after your tee shot (and your fairway shot if you were cheating ).

Leaving them behind just letters the tee boxes and damages the mower blades...absolute stupid waste.  Free goods are given zero value by their recipients...

+1
Try finding a tee when you run out in Ireland..
I sent an email after a late afternnon ride around that tees were going to $1 each if the waste didn't subside.
That day I had found at least 10 still erect, unbroken in the teeing ground
Next weekend they wasn't a stray tee to be found

[V. Kmetz]

Thomas Dai and V. Kmetz make great points.

And yes, they often have photos of the club and other items worth covering in a book.

The answer to both came from digging through old newspapers on microfilm (and, in the latter case, he was). The research is marginally easier today via several online archives, but not everything is online. Sometimes the most obscure newspaper in a city yields the biggest gem.

The key is to get the memories of the old members on tape and paper right away. Like V., I've talked to key people early in a project, and not all were around to see the book in their hands. At least their memories are in it.

...yes, other items indeed... a handsome 3-color 16 page prospectus of the first published design and proposed facilties, used for soliciting members in 1963 and 1964... an ashtray with the stick routing... poloroids and Kodak developed pcitures - copies of the substantial club monthly flyer, "Pitch n Chips" which first carried a tic toc as the course and then, clubhouse was built, plus a specific message from every department, and every result of every meaningless event...all valuable for the researcher who's building a narrative as it being unveiled to him or her.


Spending research in the 19th and 20th century newspapers in the microfilm (another time travel joy) or e-files is another thing whose value can't be appreciated until you've wandered in the environment of a time that they cast.  I have been enriched so much past the particulars of a golf history, just by the looking.  A few years ago, in looking for info on an NLE, I stumbled on what I think was the first instance of "flashing your lights to alert others to a polic speed trap" story...from 1908...on what today is called Rt 22 in Scarsdale/White Plains border... and it wasn't other motorists flashing the alert; it was the trolley/street car operator going south opposite who was helping his fellow man beat the law.  The cops got wise to it before long and the practice was stopped... but it was the beginning of the age of the auto and such codes already in practice.


One of those old members had himself made a tape, interviewing the club's first pro down in Florida in 1999.  What a treasure THAT was...  He gave color to story of how the course architect (Frank Duane) took ill and eventually severly disabled from a rare neurological illness, only weeks before the first shot in June of 1965... because of that and because the course was still raw, the pro and the first greens chairman, plus the member who supervised construction all played an ad hoc but substantial role in finishing the course with details and features which both still play a existential role in apprehension of the course but also those which have vanished in the face of an era of minimialization...

[Tim_Cronin]

From V. Kmetz:[/size]

A few years ago, in looking for info on an NLE, I stumbled on what I think was the first instance of "flashing your lights to alert others to a polic speed trap" story...from 1908...on what today is called Rt 22 in Scarsdale/White Plains border... and it wasn't other motorists flashing the alert; it was the trolley/street car operator going south opposite who was helping his fellow man beat the law.  The cops got wise to it before long and the practice was stopped... but it was the beginning of the age of the auto and such codes already in practice.[/color][/size]


That's a great story. I can (and do) get lost in old newspapers.[/color]

[Sean_A]

Minutes are not meant to tell a story. They are meant to record decisions and actions. The more wordy the minutes, the more likely there are mistakes, or at least one sided perception recorded. The truth in how a group decision is arrived is nearly impossible to record because only one person holds the pen when X number of people are involved. Trying to reflect the nuances of every important comment, or even trying to determine if comments are important would create days, not minutes and it is highly unlikely that all would agree on the notes anyway.

Ciao

[Matt MacIver]

Not for the most part is the answer, which is (sort of) fine architecturally for ~[80]% of courses — but the question goes further than that for the clubs themselves.  Why was the club established, where it was, when it was — what were the founding members trying to build, or get away from, or do different from what was already out there.  Stuffy or informal?  Open membership/closed?  Hats on or off?  Golf first/family first?  A new generation can show up and try to totally change the ethos of what the club intended — maybe for the better, or newer times - but often they just didn’t do enough research upfront and joined the wrong club for what they wanted.  Could be same for GCA — do your homework and drive a little further if there’s a course that’s got the maintenance meld you want. 

[Tim_Cronin]

Minutes are not meant to tell a story. They are meant to record decisions and actions. The more wordy the minutes, the more likely there are mistakes, or at least one sided perception recorded. The truth in how a group decision is arrived is nearly impossible to record because only one person holds the pen when X number of people are involved. Trying to reflect the nuances of every important comment, or even trying to determine if comments are important would create days, not minutes and it is highly unlikely that all would agree on the notes anyway.

Ciao

Most smart organizations record their meetings and produce the minutes from those.

[Adam_Messix]

The brainstorm behind writing the history of the Wade Hampton Golf Club when I did was to get the story "from those who were there."  When William McKee and I originally discussed the project, my thought process was talking to all of the Founders while they were still alive.  They were all fantastic and generous with their time and all wanted the project to be a success.  Since the book's publication in 2012, all but two of the Founders have passed including William whose passing was sudden and young (age 62).  I was fortunate to have tape recorded our conversations (because I was concerned that I could not take notes quickly enough to keep up.)  There were so many great stories and things that I did not know that never made the minutes of any board meeting.  Yes, there were a few contradictions but I was able to figure out what happened in most cases.  I was fortunate that Tom Fazio and Tom Marzolf were willing to spend time discussing the project at length.  I could have written a book just on the notes that I took from them. 


My advice to clubs wanting to do a project like this is to keeping asking the questions who, when, why, and how.  I would not let the publisher put any limits in terms of book length at the start of the project.  You never know how many pages you may end up needing and do not want to leaving anything of importance out. 


It's a shame that the key players in the founding of many classic clubs did not get their thoughts down on paper before they passed.  Most writers and researchers do the best they can with often times limited resources to learn the story of their club. 

[Thomas Dai]

As a general aside it's worth pointing out that many a club history book is full of references to how the Rev Green beat Col Mustard by holing a 40 ft putt on the 36th hole in the Final of the Club Championship or how Miss Scarlett received a prize for the best Clubhouse flower arrangement but say almost nothing about the history of the golf course. Sad really.
atb

[Sean_A]

Minutes are not meant to tell a story. They are meant to record decisions and actions. The more wordy the minutes, the more likely there are mistakes, or at least one sided perception recorded. The truth in how a group decision is arrived is nearly impossible to record because only one person holds the pen when X number of people are involved. Trying to reflect the nuances of every important comment, or even trying to determine if comments are important would create days, not minutes and it is highly unlikely that all would agree on the notes anyway.

Ciao

Most smart organizations record their meetings and produce the minutes from those.

Its still one person who drafts the minutes.

Ciao

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