QED: Golf Rules are not complicated compared to literally any other game

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Pretty sure that "equity" is no longer in the Rules of Golf.

It's a working principle, and is very much in the Rules of Golf. Equity in 2018 was covered by… 1-4 IIRC, which just said something like "points not covered should be governed by equity" which meant "treat like alike."

The term was removed, because people misunderstood and misused the term to mean "what they feel is fair" (and some other incorrect definitions).

20.3 covers what the old 1-4 covered, and says:

20.3 Situations Not Covered by the Rules
Any situation not covered by the Rules should be decided by the Committee:

• Considering all the circumstances, and
• Treating the situation in a way that is reasonable, fair and consistent with how similar situations are treated under the Rules.

Also, I agree with SL almost fully.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Pretty sure that "equity" is no longer in the Rules of Golf.

Nor is part of the financial world after the last few weeeks.

[Lou_Duran]

Erik,


Your POV on this topic should be discounted because you are a subject expert in several aspects of golf, quite possibly by a couple of standard deviations.  I know USGA committee guys who, after 15-20 years of taking the 3.5 days course, sweat the test lest they miss the grade and lose their positions.  I am friendly with a guy who scored 100 on his second attempt at the test and is invited to most of the national tournaments, and he gets stumped from time to time.


The rules, IMO, should not be written for people like you, SL, and Pete to study carefully and memorize, but for guys like Sean, A.G., and others who are serious about playing golf under commonly understood standards, whether casually or in competitions.  I have had a former Masters champion attempt to charge a player in his group of violating the rules by marking his ball on the green with a tee.  I've seen any number of balls crossing a yellow line into a PA where relief was taken one to two club lengths from the estimated point of entry.   


I'm in "The Book" every day when I am home.  I've read it cover to cover at least twice (over 500 pages) and the more important, commonly applicable rules and definitions four or five times.  Yet, I don't consider myself a rules expert.


When do you drop as opposed to place?  Why if somebody hits my ball (wrong ball) I get to place it, but if I hit my ball OB from outside the teeing area, I have to drop the ball?


Why if someone (outside influence) throws the ball back from OB onto the course and unbeknownst to you, you play it, but if you haven't hit the next tee shot, you have to go back and correct the situation (stroke and distance)?  In contrast, you hit a ball toward a PA, with K or VC you determine where it went in, drop a ball, hit it from there, and as you walk forward you find your original ball but are not allowed to correct the error?  The answer that both balls were out of play just doesn't satisfy me.


Or dropping from an ACC, IO, and other free relief situations, why is complete relief a requirement whereas the more punitive drop from a PA, you could be standing in water but if your ball is just outside the line, the choices are to hit it from there or take an unplayable penalty.  And worse, you take an unplayable penalty, drop, and it rolls again into another unplayable lie within the relief area- keep going with a penalty stroke each time until you get the ball to a position you can hit it.


And one of my favorites- I've seen it in tournament play- take a drop from a red PA (a lake) on a moderate, closely-mowned slope.  The ball comes to rest, but as the player gets ready to hit the shot, a gust of wind causes the ball to roll back into the water.  Tough luck, penalty stroke and re-drop.  But if the ball went into the same PA within two clubs from the green and the relief area includes a section of the green no closer to the hole allowing the ball to be dropped on the green (test question: or do you place?), a quick mark enables the player to then replace the ball without penalty should a gust of wind blow it into the PA.  Fair?  Uncomplicated?



A player gets a free drop from a cart path into an area strewn with sticks and other loose impediments.  He is allowed to pick these so he can drop into a clean relief area.  Another player's ball in the same messy area is covered with mud so that he has to mark, lift and possibly clean just enough to identify it.  If he picks up the LIs he gets the general penalty for improving his lie.  Real fair and uncomplicated, right?


I could go on and on about situations I've experienced or witness through the many years.  That it takes the USGA three or four full time employees to formulate, administer, and explain the rules would tend to suggest that there is a lot of complexity involved (I'm assuming that the R&A also has a good sized staff)-.  I certainly didn't have the issues in basketball and baseball, though my eyes and judgement were not infrequently questioned.   


     

[Kalen Braley]

Lou,


And that doesn't even include the egregious Jordan Spieth cheating ..errr "using the rules to his advantage"      incident in the 30 minute fiasco at The Open a few years back.  Could you imagine a football or basketball game being delayed by 1/2 hour while the players huddled and figured out a path to victory after putting themselves in a awful spot?!

P.S.  I mentioned it before and i'll do so again, there is a yuuuge differnence between having complicated rules vs how difficult it is to officiate a high speed game in real time.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Your POV on this topic should be discounted because you are a subject expert in several aspects of golf, quite possibly by a couple of standard deviations.

I agree, but at the same time, I've not been a Rules official for very long. I tried to recall the times before I was a rules official and yet still played competitively (and socially).

I am friendly with a guy who scored 100 on his second attempt at the test and is invited to most of the national tournaments, and he gets stumped from time to time.

Everyone can, yes, but often the Rules quizzes and tests have some unlikely situations.

As I've said, most of the time, a basic understanding of the Rules can get you through, and the ability to know how to look things up can help with the majority of what remains.

The rules, IMO, should not be written for people like you, SL, and Pete to study carefully and memorize, but for guys like Sean, A.G., and others who are serious about playing golf under commonly understood standards, whether casually or in competitions.

I don't think there's really a distinction to be made there. The Rules are the Rules. They were simplified - including the language, organization, and quantity - in 2019.

I think they're quite readable.

I've seen any number of balls crossing a yellow line into a PA where relief was taken one to two club lengths from the estimated point of entry.

That's not a rules issue - that's an ignorance issue. My daughter understood that rule when she was nine. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that the language of the Rules makes this one unclear or confusing.

When do you drop as opposed to place?

There are guidelines to these things, general rules of thumb.

I think it's beyond the scope of this topic to discuss specific instances, but in almost all instances, there's a logic to them that can be explained. You may still not like the answer, or "feel" that it's not quite right, but the reasons aren't just arbitrary or made up or "because that's the way it's always been done." There are real reasons and logic behind almost all rules. And I'm only saying "almost" because there are sometimes regional differences of opinion - the R&A and USGA sometimes compromise on things.

Fair?  Uncomplicated?

Yes and yes, IMO. 

I could go on and on about situations I've experienced or witness through the many years.  That it takes the USGA three or four full time employees to formulate, administer, and explain the rules would tend to suggest that there is a lot of complexity involved (I'm assuming that the R&A also has a good sized staff).

The NHL Rules are 229 pages, and they play on a standard sized rink with one form of play, and so on…

Golf is really no more complicated than other sports.

And that doesn't even include the egregious Jordan Spieth cheating ..errr "using the rules to his advantage"  incident in the 30 minute fiasco at The Open a few years back.  Could you imagine a football or basketball game being delayed by 1/2 hour while the players huddled and figured out a path to victory after putting themselves in a awful spot?!

What did you want to penalize him with? Undue delay? Good luck doing that in that situation.

[Pete Lavallee]

Can anyone explain the logic behind not being able to play a provisional ball that enters a Water Hazard? There must be some good reason why it’s prohibited, but it’s lost on me.


We actually have a local rule at Coronado GC where the 16th hole has water, Glorietta Bay, down the right side. We are allowed to play a provisional ball off the tee as sometimes the ball will land on dry ground and roll across the margin of the PA but still be playable.

[Pete_Pittock]

Can anyone explain the logic behind not being able to play a provisional ball that enters a Water Hazard? There must be some good reason why it’s prohibited, but it’s lost on me.


We actually have a local rule at Coronado GC where the 16th hole has water, Glorietta Bay, down the right side. We are allowed to play a provisional ball off the tee as sometimes the ball will land on dry ground and roll across the margin of the PA but still be playable.

Are you asking why a provisional ball is not 'allowed' if the original ball may be lost in a hazard?  Since relief is allowed using the reference point where the ball entered the hazard, you are not saving time hitting a provisional ball, and saving time is the PB's main purpose. Plus your score will likely be one stroke higher. 
If you play a proper provisional ball, and it becomes the ball in play AND is in a penalty area you can play the ball unless the penalty area is also a no play area.
In the situation where your ball may or may not have cleared a no-play penalty area, you can play a provisional ball to  save time.
Once you get around or across that area, if you find the original ball in the general area, the original ball remains the ball in play.
If the ball is not found, or is found in the no-play area, the provisional ball becomes the ball in play.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

The main reason, as Pete said, is that it's generally not taken as stroke-and-distance, so the time savings like for a lost or OB ball don't apply. And, really, what player is likely to play a provisional when they get the choices of dropping back on a line, playing it, or in the case of a red, two club lengths?

Additionally, unless you mandated that the original ball if found and identified (even if in the PA) you had to abandon the provisional, you'd have a situation where you'd have a choice between two balls in play, even if that choice was between a ball you'd drop with one of the above means and playing the provisional.

Provisionals for lost or OB. Pretty simple.

[Kyle Harris]

The onus of the complications derived from any drop in golf is on the golf architect that chooses to employ situations where a ball may be lost or hit OB not on the rules that provide an equitable and simple solution for overcoming those situations encountered through less-than-skillful play.


There are thousands of golf courses in the world where these situations simply don't arise.