[John Kavanaugh]

Those were some odd looking golfers protesting in Michigan today.

[MKrohn]

Make of it what you will, Dylan's "Murder Most Foul" came on my playlist as I was reading this thread.

[Pete_Pittock]

My second club has negotiated with the OLCC (Oregon Liquor Control Commission) in separating the golf course from the clubhouse for the purposes of the liquor license. That mean beer, hard cider, etc. can be taken onto the course.  One more step for humanity.


Two NYC area hospitals tested women admitted for their childbirth.  Admittedly a small test, 15% tested positive for COVID-19. Of the 32 positives, 29 were asymptomatic.

[Buck Wolter]

I came across this today and I think it does a good job of explaining some of the difference of opinion on this topic -- I am not an Economist but have a MBA and tend to think like an economist.

https://fee.org/articles/yes-there-are-tradeoffs-between-disease-prevention-and-economic-destruction/

The COVID-19 pandemic has really highlighted how differently economists and noneconomists think. All over the world, variations of the same discussion have taken place over the last week or so. It goes as follows. An economist discusses the cost of the governmental responses to the pandemic and is quickly met with accusations of cynically trying to "put a price on a life." The economist camp tries to explain its reasoning while the noneconomist camp is horrified that anyone would "let old people die to protect the rich" or "prioritize economy over health.What is really going on here is that economists and noneconomists have vastly different mindsets. Economists are constantly thinking in tradeoffs. It is second nature. It lies at the very core of economics. All of the problems economists attempt to solve involve various possible choices and finding the most optimal one.

This is based on the understanding that we live in a world of scarcity. All means are scarce, so allocating them to serve certain ends must necessarily leave other ends unsatisfied. Economists attempt to ensure that scarce resources are used efficiently. This is not as simple as putting two numbers on a piece of paper and choosing the largest one. All choices happen under uncertainty. We do not have full knowledge, and as such there is always the possibility of making the wrong choice.

[John Kavanaugh]

All I know is that my Dad has lived over 1,000 months in his life where more than 700 of those were dedicated to me and my life. I just gave up one month of golf in an attempt to let him enjoy a few more. Economy that my friend.

[MCirba]

All I know is that my Dad has lived over 1,000 months in his life where more than 700 of those were dedicated to me and my life. I just gave up one month of golf in an attempt to let him enjoy a few more. Economy that my friend.

Jesus Christ John. These people are trying to convince us that letting our parents die is a small price to pay so we can go clubbing again. That's pretty insane and I'm proud of you for standing up for what's right.

[MKrohn]

I've given up my golf for 6 weeks or so (its virtue signalling as its almost impossible to get a tee time), I hope my Dad (80) appreciates the sacrifice. It's doubtful he will, he'll probably call me an idiot for not playing but he's an economist type.


Geography is important in the debate, both the old man and myself live in a state with 8 million people on an island a long way from any "hot spots". The national and state borders are effectively closed and have been for weeks, 16 positive cases yesterday, unfortunately since the pandemic began we have also had 26 deaths.


I think both the economist and non economists positions out here would be getting closer.

[Tim Leahy]

Sean, I think you're missing my point.   Even if one accepted all of what you say about Trump as true, it still fails to explain why NY has suffered at a rate that is orders of magnitude greater than any other US area.  And it is those images from NY that do so much to shape our collective sorrow.  In fact, the "leaders" in NY made a big production in signaling their woke displeasure with the one thing Trump unquestionably did right, which was to ban travel from Wuhan.  We will never know but there's a good chance they would have defied Trump regardless of what he did or said, just because #Resistance!  It's not like they woke up in March 2020 and suddenly realized Trump was Trump.

The source of NY's pandemic was Europe not China. NY is the most densely populated city in the US hence the greater magnitude.

[Tim Leahy]

Archie, I also remember a time when you watched the news or read the paper you learned the facts with no opinion added. Those days are long gone and IMHO the "slanted" news has hurt this country. I'm also sick of the blame game from both sides. They should all shut the fuck up and just deal with problem. What's happened in the past, who's fault it is, are meaningless when it comes to this virus. Let's all work together and end it as painlessly as possible. Learn from it, get stronger from it, and move on.

The LA Times, NY Times, Washington Post, CNN, and MSNBC all provide verifiable facts. Trump's lies and lack of leadership have and will cost lives unless the media call him out on it. When someone(it won't be the White House) either finds a vaccination or a way to control the pandemic then we can all get back to golf.

[Bryan Izatt]

Sean, I think you're missing my point.   Even if one accepted all of what you say about Trump as true, it still fails to explain why NY has suffered at a rate that is orders of magnitude greater than any other US area.  And it is those images from NY that do so much to shape our collective sorrow.  In fact, the "leaders" in NY made a big production in signaling their woke displeasure with the one thing Trump unquestionably did right, which was to ban travel from Wuhan.  We will never know but there's a good chance they would have defied Trump regardless of what he did or said, just because #Resistance!  It's not like they woke up in March 2020 and suddenly realized Trump was Trump.

The source of NY's pandemic was Europe not China. NY is the most densely populated city in the US hence the greater magnitude.

And, keep in mind that the China travel "ban" was really a restriction on foreign travelers.  Tens of thousands of US citizens and permanent residents returned from China after the ban - how many were carriers? Perhaps better screening and testing would have helped for travelers from both China and Europe.  The US and many other countries were slow off the mark.  Canada didn't screen in any way more than a million people returning mainly from the US after the March 10 travel advisory although we did a 14 day quarantine period.

There is a good article from CNN UK on four countries that seemed to have done it right and the lessons that could be learned.  There is no political bias in the article IMHO.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/16/world/coronavirus-response-lessons-learned-intl/index.html

It's really sad to see the efforts at allocation of blame to China, the WHO, the states, etc.  What's done is done, the focus in the short term should be on moving forward to the new normal.

It seems Fauci is a baseball fan and can see games being played with frequent testing of players and no fans.  Maybe we could get him interested in golf. 

[Pat Burke]

All I know is that my Dad has lived over 1,000 months in his life where more than 700 of those were dedicated to me and my life. I just gave up one month of golf in an attempt to let him enjoy a few more. Economy that my friend.

John
Without the politics and bickering of this thread, this a a great post.
I see the merit of (IF) properly separated, walking and playing CAN makes sense.


I stopped teaching first week of March.  My wife has underlying issues and at 58 with a history of bronchitis, we have locked down quite a bit by my choice, I’ll do anything to protect my wife.  It’s a terrible financial hardship but I’m planning and hoping to return to teaching (with proper protections) as soon as it makes sense and offering some reasonable programs to ideally welcome our members back from the layoff from the game


But I truly appreciate your comment

[Jon Wiggett]

I came across this today and I think it does a good job of explaining some of the difference of opinion on this topic -- I am not an Economist but have a MBA and tend to think like an economist.

https://fee.org/articles/yes-there-are-tradeoffs-between-disease-prevention-and-economic-destruction/

The COVID-19 pandemic has really highlighted how differently economists and noneconomists think. All over the world, variations of the same discussion have taken place over the last week or so. It goes as follows. An economist discusses the cost of the governmental responses to the pandemic and is quickly met with accusations of cynically trying to "put a price on a life." The economist camp tries to explain its reasoning while the noneconomist camp is horrified that anyone would "let old people die to protect the rich" or "prioritize economy over health.What is really going on here is that economists and noneconomists have vastly different mindsets. Economists are constantly thinking in tradeoffs. It is second nature. It lies at the very core of economics. All of the problems economists attempt to solve involve various possible choices and finding the most optimal one.

This is based on the understanding that we live in a world of scarcity. All means are scarce, so allocating them to serve certain ends must necessarily leave other ends unsatisfied. Economists attempt to ensure that scarce resources are used efficiently. This is not as simple as putting two numbers on a piece of paper and choosing the largest one. All choices happen under uncertainty. We do not have full knowledge, and as such there is always the possibility of making the wrong choice.

Buck,


I think there was a lack of honesty at the outset of the pandemic. It should have been properly explained just what a hit the economy would take by following the course of action we are going down.


You had too extremes that could have been used. One was to protect the economy in which everything carried on as normal and probably hundreds of thousands would have died in the UK alone. This would have almost certainly meant a smaller economical hit.


The other would have been total lockdown until an inoculation was found meaning less deaths but almost certainly economic ruin.


I actually think the way it has been done here in the UK was pretty good but the result is going to be a large proportion of the population is going to face major economic difficulties and many will be ruined. There are many who think they are financially okay for the future who will discover they are not. In fact in the UK only the super rich and the pensioners on a guaranteed pension who will only live for a few years will be unaffected.


However because here the state has effectively taken the decision to intervene it also requires the state to ensure that the effects of their decision are not detrimental to the population. It needs the state to reset the economics back to where it was at the start of the pandemic.


I know there will be many that say you cannot do that but what they need to think about is what happens if you don't. The vast majority of the economy will be ruined. Mass unemployment, massive poverty and this for decades. It does not take a genius to know where that will lead to even in the UK.


I believe the UK government's  response has been good but woefully short of what is needed.


Jon

[Bryan Izatt]

The member/resident owners of the gated golf community in South Florida that I stay at for a few months in the winter is just now trying to find a way to address the community's desire to play on the two courses they have and to use carts (being necessary for a lot of the members, it seems).  The following description of the SOP looks well thought out and detailed.


The day it was announced the booking system crashed from high demand.  The day after there were complaints about the $8 walking fee, the 15 minute tee times, the lack of 400 carts to meet the demand, limiting carts to only one course, and the desire of some to not play with other members they didn't know.  Real 1st world problems.


The SOP:


Dear Members,

Beginning this Wednesday, April 15th, the Club will be expanding our current golf course operations by reintroducing carts and tee times. We have implemented safety measures and have the appropriate supplies available to ensure this can be done in the safest way possible, without any person-to-person contact. By providing this service, we will need the cooperation of all Members to ensure leisurely play is not compromising the health and safety of Members, Staff, and the ……….. Community during this pandemic.
                   
Golf Shop
The Golf Shop will remain closed to Members. A Staff Member will be available via email daily from 7:00am-3:00pm and can be reached at golfshop@.................
 
The Golf Professional Staff is currently in the process of developing a virtual golf shop which will assist Members who wish to make purchases. This will include a "carry bag" offer and necessities such as balls, gloves, etc.
 
AAAAA Course Access

Members may book tee times for the AAAAA Golf Course for WALKING ONLY by reserving their tee time through the Jonas tee sheet for the next 15 days. This will be on a first come, first serve basis.
 
AAAAA Tee times will be split tees off of hole #1 and #10, with tee times every 15 minutes from 7:30am-9:00am and 11:20am-1:20pm with Open Play after 1:20 pm. Outside of the 15-day window, Members may make their tee time lottery request as they typically would. Lottery requests will be pulled 15 days out and tee times will be randomly assigned by the system, just like our normal tee time procedure in season. Members will be able to begin booking their tee times when the tee sheet opens at noon on Monday, April 13th.
 
BBBBB Course Access

Limited golf carts will be available for Members with a tee time on the BBBBB Course. Please allow these limited tee times permitting golf carts for those who have not been able to enjoy the courses during the closure. When making a tee-time, you will be asked to indicate if you will require a cart.
 
Members may book tee times on the BBBBB Golf Course by reserving their tee time through the Jonas tee sheet for the next 15 days on a first come, first serve basis  BBBBB Tee times will be straight tee times beginning on hole #1 only with tee times every 15 minutes from 8:00am-12:00pm and open play after 12:00pm. Outside of the 15-day window, Members may make their tee time lottery request as they normal would.  Lottery requests will be pulled 15 days out and tee times will be randomly assigned by the system, just like our normal tee time procedure in season. The tee sheet will open at noon on Monday, April 13th.
 
Practice Facilities

The USGA, PGA, and NCA all recommend that practice facilities remain closed at this time due to the limitations surrounding safety measures. The Driving Range will remain closed while ……………. continues to follow recommendations at this time. The Putting Greens and Chipping Greens will remain open for Members who use their own golf balls.
 
Golf Cart Use Guidelines

CARTS ARE FOR THOSE MEMBERS WHO HAVE A TEE TIME ON THE BBBBB COURSE ONLY
 
Golf carts will be staged in the morning immediately outside the golf shop on the grass near the pond /AAAAA #10 tee. Carts will be staged prior to 7:45am and will remain unattended for the remainder of the day. Carts will be staged six (6) feet apart. The carts that are staged will be clean, disinfected and ready for use.
 
- The exact number of golf carts needed will be staged each day, those who do not have a tee time with a cart will not be permitted to take a cart.
 
- Members who have a tee time on the BBBBB and are allowed to take a golf cart should take the next cart in line that is staged outside the golf shop.
 
- Carts cannot be picked up any earlier than 15 minutes prior to your confirmed tee time.
 
- Carts are for individual players and are not to be shared, with the exception of a Member and his/her spouse accompanying them on the cart. Anyone who does not reside in a household together may not ride on a cart together.
 
- Members must only touch the cart that they will be utilizing for the day. The Member may then take that golf cart to their car to load their bag and then to the 1st tee.
 
- Any cart that comes into contact in any way with a Member will be considered contaminated and will not be utilized again until proper disinfection procedures have been completed.
 
With the allowance of up to four (4) golf carts per foursome, the Club asks for the Membership’s strict adherence of the following Golf Cart Rules:
 
- Where possible, do not follow other golf cart tracks and avoid soft areas in the turf.
 
- Allowing more carts will create additional wear and tear on the golf course, so please be mindful of where you drive.
 
- Golf carts must remain on cart paths, without exception, on the par 3 holes. Always use cart paths where provided, especially near the tees and greens.   
 
- The 90-degree rule will be in effect when possible. Otherwise, players should drive up either the edge of the fairway or slightly into the rough.       
 
- Any signs restricting golf cart usage must be strictly followed.
 
- Personal golf carts are not permitted on the course.
 
Golf Cart Return

- Following play, the cart must be returned to the cart return area located outside of the cart barn. Please park carts 6 feet apart and ensure you are practicing social distancing at all times. Members are asked to take ALL items from the cart they used, including their bag, water bottles, scorecard, pencil, and any trash on the cart.
 
- Members must return their bag to their vehicle. Bags will not be stored at the Club.
 
- Members are not permitted to congregate following play. All CDC social distancing guidelines must be adhered to.
 
Following play each day, our Staff while wearing PPE (personal protection equipment) will clean and sanitize the carts for your safety and in preparation of the next day.
 
Miscellaneous
- Regular Cart fees will apply.  Members who walk the golf course will be charged a temporary green fee of $8, independent of 9 or 18 holes.
 
- Open afternoon play will remain complimentary. We will have a starter until 1:20pm each day.
 
- If you have a golf bag in storage, the Golf Professional Staff will stage it with the cart for your first tee-time. However, it will be your responsibility to take it with you after the completion of the round.  The bag will not be returned to storage. 
 
We kindly ask Members to review these policies and guidelines prior to their tee-times in order to protect the health of the community. We are excited to allow carts on a limited basis and will continue to review our standard operating procedures as we balance safety and enjoyment on our championship courses. We are also reviewing the possibility of alternating the course with carts in the future.


 

[Buck Wolter]

All I know is that my Dad has lived over 1,000 months in his life where more than 700 of those were dedicated to me and my life. I just gave up one month of golf in an attempt to let him enjoy a few more. Economy that my friend.

Jesus Christ John. These people are trying to convince us that letting our parents die is a small price to pay so we can go clubbing again. That's pretty insane and I'm proud of you for standing up for what's right.

You guys caught me --I want old people to die.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm digging myself a hole here. Michigan just made my no play list.

[Phil Carlucci]

"NYS Pause" extended to May 15.  That's another 2+ weeks of closed golf courses, assuming it remains on the non-essential list.

[Jon Wiggett]

I'm digging myself a hole here. Michigan just made my no play list.

John,


as long as your doing it in a responsible way that reduces the danger to others don't feel bad. You keep right on digging 

[Lou_Duran]

All I know is that my Dad has lived over 1,000 months in his life where more than 700 of those were dedicated to me and my life. I just gave up one month of golf in an attempt to let him enjoy a few more. Economy that my friend.

Jesus Christ John. These people are trying to convince us that letting our parents die is a small price to pay so we can go clubbing again. That's pretty insane and I'm proud of you for standing up for what's right.

You guys caught me --I want old people to die.

And without a pain pill!     Nice job of re-configuring your argument so the righteously indignant don't have to erect a straw man they can blow away with ease.


Maybe post apocalypse, we can all go work for the government.  Let's not worry about who is going to pay the taxes so we can work from home or just take a long break with pay.

[Sean_A]

I am not adverse to sick humour. But if yer gonna spit sick jokes, have the decency to be funny.

Ciao

[archie_struthers]

 


Tim, with all due respect the five you mentioned are close to the most liberal and tainted for as many reasons as is Fox news. But that's your opinion


MSNBC....all day attack machine

[Buck Wolter]

Wisconsin is going to allow its citizens to play golf beginning next Friday -- no word yet if they'll be arresting out-of-staters.


https://journaltimes.com/news/local/wisconsin-golf-courses-can-reopen-friday-april-24/article_02a9e36e-e1af-5922-a207-091a82a84aa9.html

[Lou_Duran]

I am not adverse to sick humour. But if yer gonna spit sick jokes, have the decency to be funny.

Ciao

Et tu Brute!  Wasn't going for funny, just irony.


I found your man's suggestion to the daughter of a 90+ year-old woman that a pill to ease the pain and not a needed operation for an otherwise healthy senior neither decent, compassionate or funny.  Amazing the difference between then and now.


When Obamacare was being rammed through, "end of life conversations", aka "death panels", were thought to be "smart" policy in realization that medical costs in a universal health plan would need to be capped (aka as rationing).  Young people had a long life ahead of them to contribute; old folks, well, been there, done that, unless, of course, they were parents or family of the ruling class.


As a senior citizen with complicating factors, I don't find it reassuring nor noble that now your side is willing to put the world in a deep economic depression purportedly to "save" old people like me.  Whatever level of security is being offered, the loss of personal freedom more than offsets it, not to say anything of the cost and lost opportunities that my children and grandchildren will bear for the demands that way too many people place on government.   We do get the government we deserve, and I am afraid that this surprise is not going to end well.

[Sean_A]

I am not adverse to sick humour. But if yer gonna spit sick jokes, have the decency to be funny.

Ciao

Et tu Brute!  Wasn't going for funny, just irony.


I found your man's suggestion to the daughter of a 90+ year-old woman that a pill to ease the pain and not a needed operation for an otherwise healthy senior neither decent, compassionate or funny.  Amazing the difference between then and now.

When Obamacare was being rammed through, "end of life conversations", aka "death panels", were thought to be "smart" policy in realization that medical costs in a universal health plan would need to be capped (aka as rationing).  Young people had a long life ahead of them to contribute; old folks, well, been there, done that, unless, of course, they were parents or family of the ruling class.

As a senior citizen with complicating factors, I don't find it reassuring nor noble that now your side is willing to put the world in a deep economic depression purportedly to "save" old people like me.  Whatever level of security is being offered, the loss of personal freedom more than offsets it, not to say anything of the cost and lost opportunities that my children and grandchildren will bear for the demands that way too many people place on government.   We do get the government we deserve, and I am afraid that this surprise is not going to end well.

Sweet Lou

It's not my side to which you refer. I am but a partyless pawn. That said, given that we are in the middle of a pandemic, it's difficult to blame politicians for delivering policy based on the advice of health experts. I don't think it is reasonable to place people in the position of choosing between their lives and their jobs at a time when nobody has a clue how many people have contracted Covid 19. A far more effective testing program would be a huge benefit in terms of getting back to business. Until such time, I am thankful people seem to be taking this situation seriously and acting responsibly. I only wish politicians took the advice of health experts earlier. Hopefully lessons will be learned.

Ciao

[Jerry Kluger]

I think this article makes sense - to me it questions who should judge your actions including whether you should play golf at this time.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/playing-golf-during-a-pandemic-might-be-safe-but-is-it-right?mbid=nl_041720_golfworld

[John Kavanaugh]

Where do I send the check? I need me one of those kind and loving Gods who will tell me exactly what I want to hear.


Once you take the word of one of these three guys to golf you can not question the Kentucky pastor who asks his flock to come to church.

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