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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #575 on: April 12, 2020, 10:22:23 PM »
Southern Pines appears to be open so Ran might be unavailable...
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #576 on: April 13, 2020, 03:46:46 AM »
Oh, Jon. Please learn two things. First, that opinions can't be right or wrong, and second, that I understand this.
There's an expression for that over here.  The word is bollocks.  Of course an opinion can be wrong.
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I think that golf - walking only, playing only with your housemates or possibly in a twosome or threesome of people, no touching of shared things, etc. - is safer than walking on a congested park path (which is still allowed) and is safe enough that it can be done even now, in the middle of the pandemic. Despite this, I have honored my governor's order and have not played since it was put in place.
No-one should be walking on a congested park path.  Only an idiot would do that.  That's a bit like saying that tightrope walking is safer than Russian roulette.  You continue to demonstrate that you simply don't get the danger with this virus.  And your tone deaf response to just about everyone on this thread demonstrates an arrogance that is simply stupefying.
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Cheers. Be well.
I suspect Jon will be fine.  He lives in a sparsely populated part of a sparsely populated country and is an incredibly sensible man.  I'm more concerned for you and those close to you.
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Edit: Stupid spacing and fonts.



Mark,


it is just stupefying that someone can be so dim or simply arrogantly blind. I guess he just can't help it.


Jon

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #577 on: April 13, 2020, 03:54:54 AM »

Re:COVID-19, we know next to nothing.



Your fellow citizens are dying on a daily basis in there thousands from a virus that even, you as great in your own mind as you, admit to knowing 'next to nothing' about yet you will still continue to argue the toss over what is worse cart golf, walking or a crowded park.


What must the death toll be and who needs to die before you decide it might be better not to play golf rather than just following the guidelines  ::)




archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #578 on: April 13, 2020, 08:34:07 AM »
 ???


As one who isn't above stirring the pot a bit I still thinking this topic is getting a little carried away. While we might not agree on the proper protocols to take, we should be at least willing to hear divergent opinions without making it personal. Hope all can respond with this in mind and make site a learning experience as  it was intended.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 09:08:58 AM by archie_struthers »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #579 on: April 13, 2020, 08:51:23 AM »
I think it's safe to say that all of us are operating in completely new territory here, so perhaps we could dial back the intensity just a bit.  Not the discussion itself; just the intensity and the rhetoric.

It is very, very difficult to look at the objective information available about cases and deaths and not think that we've dropped the ball in the US; there just isn't much way around it.  That's without pointing a finger at who is to blame for that, which is another question, but putting aside China because of a lack of reliable information, we're pretty much leading the league in every category of the pandemic AND we have the steepest curves still today.  That's more than disturbing.

I'll content myself with listening to Dr. Fauci (assuming he continues to hold his job), and to obeying the orders of Gov. Cooper and Mayor Schewel, all of whom seem to be doing their dead level best to act on the available science.  If folks like those three, along with EVERY medical professional that I know anything about, say that we can't "reopen" the economy because of the bomb that would go off, then so be it.  And if golf becomes NOT ok in NC, I'm good with that, too.  As I've said, it feels like a bit of a guilty pleasure anyway, though safer than any other trip outside my house.


"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

C. Sturges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #580 on: April 13, 2020, 11:06:25 AM »
OT
People: If you do not like a thread, do not click on it.  Don’t be such little kids and say I am never going to post if so and so aren’t kicked off.  Maybe you should just not post.
Clearly this thread has gone off the rails at times, but it comes back.   This is a great way to see how different people are dealing with the current situation facing all golfers.
Since this thread started, major golf associations have started sharing where golf is open and closed.   Same with the magazines and other sites.   This is common for a topic to start on GCA and then get covered elsewhere.
We all have more in common with each other than we might like.  I am fine with that.  I hope this thread continues.
chris

[/size][size=78%]ps. I also hope to get to golf with many of you that I have never met before.  Even with not necessarily believing your opinions.       [/size]
[/size]
[/size]


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #581 on: April 13, 2020, 11:30:40 AM »
OT
People: If you do not like a thread, do not click on it.  Don’t be such little kids and say I am never going to post if so and so aren’t kicked off.  Maybe you should just not post.
Clearly this thread has gone off the rails at times, but it comes back.   This is a great way to see how different people are dealing with the current situation facing all golfers.
Since this thread started, major golf associations have started sharing where golf is open and closed.   Same with the magazines and other sites.   This is common for a topic to start on GCA and then get covered elsewhere.
We all have more in common with each other than we might like.  I am fine with that.  I hope this thread continues.
chris

[size=78%]ps. I also hope to get to golf with many of you that I have never met before.  Even with not necessarily believing your opinions.       [/size]





The thread topic implies that there are different restrctions and guidelines in place for golf courses.
Therefore the organizations setting these guidelines and restrictions have different opinions.
For someone to have a different opinion of what certain areas should be doing in their specific case, or what guidlelines are in place seems like perfectly normal behavior(they vary widely and change-in both directions-day to day)

We're going to be in this a LOOOOONG time, and at some point we are going to have be practicing social distancing in all walks of life , even and especially as we return to work and the "new" normal life.
Having a different opinion doesn't make one wrong.
I'm in  no way suggesting courses should be filled with employees on site and keg parties taking place in the parking lot.
I am suggesting that if Erik and his daughter play 9 holes on a sunny day on an empty nearby course that it is perfectly safe behavior. (although he has made it clear that he's following the Governor's orders to not do so)

Some people and activities are going to be locked down for multiple months, maybe even a year to a a year and a half.
Others aren't as ther situations are and will be different.
Like it or not, in urban areas, parks and green space are crowded, and can interfere with someone getting essential sunshine and exercise, both keys to a healthy immunity system.Those areas should be scouted and avoided. I've been walking 3-5 miles daily on green belt trails and hardly ever see another human, but only because I know these trails well and how to avoid popular areas.
Golf should be no different when we return.
Durness, for someone who lives in Durness, would be a more likely candidate to reopen than St. Andrews, or Braid Hills in Edinburgh.
This is not a "14 day" or a 30 day event-it will vary in every situation/locality.
Therefore Durness,for walking distance locals, at some point, under strict social distancing safety guidelines should not have to wait for it to be safe to play golf at Braid Hills.


and, as someone who has engaged in multiplle disagreements of opinion with Erik over the years, I will say hearing his point of view has only made me more educated on the topics we have debated-while we often agree to disagree, I have learned a lot and generally understand his opinions on equipment and instruction are well researched and data driven.
In fact, the three links he listed provide some very interesting insight into our current dilemna.As he points out, those are merely for consideration, along with much other research and data that need to be considered. I was taught by a mentor years ago to go see instructors who I did NOT agree with if I wanted to learn something, as we all get stuck in our own echo chambers, especially in the social media era.

I'll conclude that we all are going to be having to draw our own conclusions in the coming months, as the information we get will not solely be data driven or balanced science, but rather agenda driven by two sides battling a coming election in November, one attempting to rewrite the history of a badly failed response and another trying to use the leadership vacum to push their own political agenda.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 03:03:26 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #582 on: April 13, 2020, 12:02:24 PM »
+1 to the prior 4 messages. Thanks for bringing back the voice of reason, guys.


To echo those four points, proper protocols for golf continue to be a moving target in different areas throughout the world. I'm interested in hearing what those protocols are, and how they're shifting. I also think we'll someday look back on a thread like this as a time capsule - even if this thread goes 100% on topic from here out, it's not crazy to me to think it could reach 100 pages as the rules evolve throughout the world over the next 12+ months. I would humbly suggest that the backseat moderators take a deep breath, ditch the ultimatums, and follow the suggestion to control your clicking.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #583 on: April 13, 2020, 12:15:05 PM »
Also there's a lot of condemnation of entitlement aimed at golfers slipping the rules, but there also may be entitlement among those working from home, or getting paid regardless of whether they work or not, with weeks of food and medicine in hand and months of cash in the bank, criticizing golf owners or employees who are resisting a total shut down, period full stop, in their area regardless of whether playing golf in their particular location is wrong in fact (because it is dangerous) or just wrong because it is prohibited. I'm obeying my Maryland governor's orders and my club is shut down.  I'm not playing.  But I can certainly sympathize with those in remote areas who might question whether sweeping government orders are motivated more by politics than data or scientific advice.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 01:03:18 PM by Bernie Bell »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #584 on: April 13, 2020, 12:26:55 PM »
...but there also may be entitlement among those working from home, or getting paid regardless of whether they work or not, with weeks of food and medicine in hand and months of cash in the bank, criticizing golf owners or employees who are resisting a total shut down...


I think this is very true, and an important point/consideration, though I wouldn't use the term entitlement.
I'd say: no matter how decent and thoughtful and caring/empathetic a person you are, if you've spent 5 and 10 and 20 years working in a sector or industry that provided you a paycheck every two weeks, like clockwork, no matter how good/bad the overall economy was or (now) whether you worked from the office or from home, you have come to take your steady paycheck and healthy bank account for granted, and it's been years since you've had any doubts whatsoever about your ability to pay your bills and cover your mortgage and have food on the table for your family.
In other words: if you are that person (no matter how kind and caring you are), you simply cannot imagine what life is like (now) for the self-employed or the private sector retail worker or for the single mother living paycheck to paycheck -- the stress and the fear and the anxiety of not knowing.
Which is to say: let's at least be a little more understanding of & have compassion for those among us and in society who are longing/arguing for the economy to reopen.   
It's probably not that they are 'selfish', but instead that they are afraid.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 12:28:50 PM by Peter Pallotta »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #585 on: April 13, 2020, 01:45:06 PM »
Use this thread for whatever you want but when the original post was edited for content 5 days later it became worthless as an archive.




Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #586 on: April 13, 2020, 01:57:48 PM »
Use this thread for whatever you want but when the original post was edited for content 5 days later it became worthless as an archive.


John, I didn't edit it for content only grammar.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #587 on: April 13, 2020, 02:15:45 PM »
Tommy,


My apologies. I can not find your post where you talked about a family member being exposed on a ski trip.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #588 on: April 13, 2020, 02:47:16 PM »
Tommy,


My apologies. I can not find your post where you talked about a family member being exposed on a ski trip.


This one?
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,68113.100.html
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #589 on: April 13, 2020, 02:57:01 PM »
Tommy,


Thanks. That is why I limit edits whenever possible. You really were at ground zero for outdoor sports. Everything must have worked out.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #590 on: April 13, 2020, 03:01:33 PM »
Tommy,


Thanks. That is why I limit edits whenever possible. You really were at ground zero for outdoor sports. Everything must have worked out.


John, I am a grammar nut. If I post something that is grammatically suspect I have to fix it. I will edit some posts three or four times.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #591 on: April 13, 2020, 03:05:01 PM »
It only takes once for an overzealous critic to accuse you of something you did not say to avoid giving them an edit to cover their lies. The site gives you just around 60 seconds to make an edit with tagging your post. That should be enough.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #592 on: April 13, 2020, 03:28:46 PM »
I guess I never felt the need to worry about that. I have been accused of being naive. I don't mind the tag.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Greg Clark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #593 on: April 13, 2020, 03:38:51 PM »
I think it's safe to say that all of us are operating in completely new territory here, so perhaps we could dial back the intensity just a bit.  Not the discussion itself; just the intensity and the rhetoric.

It is very, very difficult to look at the objective information available about cases and deaths and not think that we've dropped the ball in the US; there just isn't much way around it.  That's without pointing a finger at who is to blame for that, which is another question, but putting aside China because of a lack of reliable information, we're pretty much leading the league in every category of the pandemic AND we have the steepest curves still today.  That's more than disturbing.

I'll content myself with listening to Dr. Fauci (assuming he continues to hold his job), and to obeying the orders of Gov. Cooper and Mayor Schewel, all of whom seem to be doing their dead level best to act on the available science.  If folks like those three, along with EVERY medical professional that I know anything about, say that we can't "reopen" the economy because of the bomb that would go off, then so be it.  And if golf becomes NOT ok in NC, I'm good with that, too.  As I've said, it feels like a bit of a guilty pleasure anyway, though safer than any other trip outside my house.


To be fair, if one wants to look at the objective information available, they should be looking at data that includes population.  The current numbers of deaths per 1M in population per country include:


Spain              370
Italy               338
Belgium          337
France            229
UK                 167
Nether.           165
Switz.             131
Sweden            91
Ireland             74
USA                 70
Germany          36
Canada            20
S.Kor.                4
Japan                1


China's numbers are bullshit.


Also, in regards to curves, objectively one should be looking at logarithmic curves.  This is what Dr. Birx is referring to during the briefings.  In regards to cases, the US logarithmic curve peaked on 4/4.  It remained flat thru 4/10 and has been falling for the last three days.  As far as deaths, the curve remained fairly flat from 4/7 - 4/10, with a slight peak on the 10th.  It has been falling the last three days.  Deaths are a lagging indicator and will not decrease at the same pace as new cases.  Of course things could change and head in the opposite direction.


Hopefully the worst is behind us here in the US, and hopefully the same for all our friends overseas.




Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #594 on: April 13, 2020, 04:56:43 PM »



One of the good things about this web site is that it sometimes provokes me into digging in on some topics that I might never have thought about.  The "discussion" on opinion and fact led me to the following philosophy article which I found entertaining and frustrating at the same time.


https://www.philosophersmag.com/essays/26-the-fact-opinion-distinction


The best the author could come up with to describe the difference was:

"A statement of fact is one that has objective content and is well-supported by the available evidence.

A statement of opinion is one whose content is either subjective or else not well supported by the available evidence."

So, it's a fact that a golf hole is 4.25" in diameter.  It's opinion that ANGC is a better golf course than Pebble Beach.

Now, to consider is it fact or opinion that "The earth was created by an omnipotent God".  No response necessary to this one.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #595 on: April 13, 2020, 05:21:12 PM »
Bryan,


The things you have to research or fact-check are truly amazing.  Facts are very few in comparison to opinions.  Golf holes are not always 4.25"- in my case they seem much smaller.  The faith it takes to be an atheist is much greater, IMO, than to be a deist or a Judeo/Christian.  Some opinions are much better than others.  ANGC is a better course than PBGL, even off a seedy commercial street and without an ocean.


Below is a link to the most recent stats for my city and the two counties it sits in.


 [size=0pt]This Frisco table provides more information[/size]


If someone can make the case that we should be under the same guidelines and restrictions as a hot spot, say NYC, please, I am all ears.


Oh, and I welcome a good explanation why H1N1 was treated exponentially differently than COVID-19.  Certainly we don't have a better, more nuanced understanding of the Precautionary Principle today.  Methinks that the principal here and in a half-dozen other countries have a bit more to do with it than "the science". 

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #596 on: April 13, 2020, 06:53:54 PM »
There's no argument whether certain places should be treated differently than others. That's fairly obvious. But there are limits to practicality. You cannot do any rules street by street. You can do a very few rules county by county. You will do many state by state. And you will need a few nation by nation.

And it has squat to do with "fairness" or "appropriateness". It is very simply a matter of practicality, enforceability, viability and cost. Yes, you will hurt some reasonable people. Yes, your rules will miss some idiots. You will be over-reaching in some cases.

It is very easy to pick any set of rules apart by finding a single case of where they might be unnecessary. But that proves nothing and any person making a sweeping argument based on exceptional circumstances is not worth listening to.

The US is a big country and perhaps it hasn't yet found the right granularity for who makes the rules for which area. But one thing is clear: it is totally unhelpful if people, who live in relative safety and wealth, complain about that. Fixing THEIR problems is the least of all priorities right now. If you are healthy and have food, shut the fuck up and get out of the way of those, who are doing essential work.

In a Detroit hospital the bodies are piling up in the broom closet and some are even sat up on a stool in the hallways, because the morgue is full. In the face of such a situation it is downright asinine to ask what the difference is between Covid-19 and the Swine Flu. Yes, there may be a village here or a country there where there isn't much of a difference!

But overall I don't fucking remember bodies stacking up on hospital floors in a civilised country. I don't fucking remember doctors having to choose who gets treatment and who gets to die.

If you're living in a place, where all of that doesn't happen, then at least try to show a little compassion for other parts of your state or your country and don't waste your local authorities' time with petty requests. And don't be that pastor, who said God is greater than Covid-19 and kept filling his church. Cause that guy's dead, you know. And he probably took parts of his congregation with him. Try for just a minute to not think of you and your local situation.
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #597 on: April 13, 2020, 06:58:05 PM »
Lou,
    The specifics of an area are meaningless if the virus comes in via a transient person. An area as dense as NYC would have a better chance of transmission of the virus because there are more people on both sides of the equation. However, it only takes once person to upend everything. If your town has an airport, there may be spreaders deplaning there. If your city has a freeway, spreaders can exit and fill up with gas and eat at a local fast food. Once a transmission is made it will only be a matter of time for inceased cases.
    The specifics of Frisco are altered by being in the DFW metro area  unless all Frisco people stay in Frisco to work. The more people that work in DFW and commute to/from work, the better chance that the virus will enter your area.
     I look at a Wordlometers state chart on COVID statistics and watch how state figures change in relationship to other states and shutdown dates. The earliest shutdown states are falling in the rankings, and being replaced by states which for whatever reason defended their right to not implement measures.
     Stay safe, don't use and transportation system other than your car. Use an off the beaten path gas station.  If you go out, decontaminate what you bring back. If you need to golf, go ahead if you take the precautions for yourself and others .   

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #598 on: April 13, 2020, 07:00:22 PM »
My God man, it’s been 30 days!!!

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #599 on: April 13, 2020, 07:20:50 PM »
Gentlemen,


I have a clear idea of the course restrictions at Indooroopilly Golf Club now that the dust has settled a wee bit.
In March at some point, I was in New Zealand, the Federal Government of Australia advised that all golf course should be closed. The States have jurisdiction and have enacted their own "rules" but always in accord with the federal Government's statements on social distancing and the like.
MY club IGC eventually, 2-3 weeks ago opened for play. The club house is closed to all activities precluding social engagement over food and drink. There should be no socialising in the car park. Only two people are allowed per group and there is a ten minute interval between tee-off times. No touching of the flagstick, the cups are inverted and there are no rakes in the bunkers where a preferred lie can be taken if desired. Two people are allowed in a motorised cart if they co-habit; otherwise your pull trolley has to be your own, no club rentals. and once you remove your golf clubs from the storage area at the club they cannot be returned. Those strictures seem to mirror "best practice" if you are going to have the course open. Maintenance staff are staggered regarding work times/periods. So in Queensland golf courses are open but the "legals" have to be stuck to or the personal and club fines are harsh. This is the case in Queensland and I believe all golf clubs in Victoria are closed. I am not sure about the other States.
And yes the insights on this thread have been very interesting.
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

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