Pittsburgh golf

[JNagle]

There are many other private Club's in the area worth mentioning;

Suprised to see no mention of (or maybe I read over it) the Longue Vue Club.  A good course with one of the truly magnificant Clubhouses in all of the U.S.

Westmoreland C.C. - Original Wilson followed by Jones, Finger, Dye and Forse (27 Holes)

St. Clair C.C. - Terrace 9 by Bendelow w/ changes by others with the Championship 18 by Joe Lee

Valley Brook - Garbin and Jones (27 Holes)

Nemacolin C.C. and New Castle - both Tillinghast

Butler is primarily Bendelow and Loeffler.  

You can't leave the Kahkwa Club out of a trip to western PA.  2+ hours north of the City in Erie it is a great early Donald Ross course (1915)

Most of these course are in the process of making minor changes and improvements.  Master Plans are in place for each with the exception of Nemacolin and Butler, however Butler is seriously taking a look at a Master Plan.  Some of the names may not be appealing to contributers of this site, however each course has an appealing quality about them.  The Kahkwa Club will play host to next years USGA Women's Amateur and completed an entire bunker and two green restoration in 2000.  Sunnehanna has been implementing thier master plan for the past 6+ years and is begging to take on a different look.  The Longue Vue Club spent most of 2001/2 rebuilding all of its bunkers, removing some, leveling tees and expanding greens.

[George Pazin]

JNagle -

I'm primarily a public golfer & JohnV just moved to the area 6 months ago, so we're a little short on private course info from the area. Please tell us more about the courses you mentioned - I'm particularly intrigued by Longue Vue & St. Clair. A friend of mine who was a pretty good golfer some time ago has said that St. Clair is one of his favorites in the area.

Welcome to the board.

[JohnV]

Having had a committee meeting and dinner at Longue Vue last night, I can say that it has a wonderful club house and execellent food.  The course was covered in snow so I won't comment on it.  I should be working a foursomes event up there this spring and will definitely get a good feel for it then.

[Paul Richards]

What are the five 'must-sees' of Pittsburgh golf?

[TEPaul]

Jim Nagle:

I did mention Longue Vue on the first page. I played it a few years ago and it is a good course--a fun one--really gives the feeling of the old style in many ways. A Robert White design--that course has lots of topography and some really fun golf holes. (I got my idea for the "play back" hole concept on one of the back nine holes). Whatever hole that was (somewhere around #11-13 maybe) was a very interesting green-end that appeared almost reversed or backwards to the line of play! Some good par 3s too, as I recall.

You're not kidding about that clubhouse. Not only is the clubhouse impressive but the view from it (very high up) looking well down the river is breathtaking.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

When I lived out East of Pittsburgh just after college, I got a chance to play a few of them out that way, but not as many of the old classics "Dahn-tan".

Oakmont (goes without saying)

Latrobe CC (great old club, short course, added ambience for the fact that Arnie is out there most of the time during the summer)

Laurel Valley (great conditions, wonderful walk in the park, and pretty surroundings, do it if you can)

Olde Stonewall (unique if slightly over the top architucture, Hurdzan/Fry, very high WOW factor but not traditional, huge stones bulkheading everywhere.)

Kahkawa CC (unique place, but someone made it sound like just a short jaunt from PITT.  Wrong!  Erie is a haul, and winter doesnt leave there for a few weeks after PITT area)

Mystic Rock @ Nemacolin (one of the best public courses money can buy.  Pete Dye spectacular but spendy, probably 1hr from downtown (excuse me "Dahn-tan") by the time you find it in the middle of nowhere)

Toms Run GC (Upscale Public out near Murraysville)

Dont think I have heard anyone mention a new private that just opened last year.  Also out near Murrysville (actually Hannastown I think) called Totterridge CC.  Good track, and because it is so new might be easier to get on to.  Rocco Mediate (Greensburg native) has some interest in this place I think.

Thats all the time I have for now, but hope that helps.

[Paul Richards]

Anyone know anything about New Castle?  Or Sunnehanna?

[JohnV]

Paul,

Both courses are Tillinghast designs.  Sunnehanna is probably the better of the two from what I've heard.  New Castle is very good, but not as much of a championship layout.  Sunnehanna hosts the Sunnehanna Amateur every year which is one of the most prestigious amateur championships around.  The list of winners reads like a tour event.  chas been going through a restoration over the last few years which included the discovery of an old Tillie style cross bunker on the par 5 15th which has been rebuilt completely.  The superintendent out there seems like a very good person and I hope to get out there and play this summer.  New Castle is the home of the chairman of the committee I work the closest with at the WPGA and I'll be going over there for a meeting in early April.  Hopefully some golf also soon.

For more info on Sunnehanna see: http://www.sunnehanna.com/course01.html

[Paul Richards]

I just checked and it appears that Allegheny has never made anyone's national list of best courses.  Anyone have any idea how come?

Also, exactly where is Lehigh?  

[George Pazin]

Paul -

Can't answer the Allegheny question, but Lehigh is in the Allentown metropolitan area (can't remember specifically if it's in Allentown or Bethlehem). It's about a 4 1/2 hour drive from the 'Burgh. I drive by it every time I head out to NYC to visit friends - I could probably drive it in my sleep. Probably have, in fact. Turnpike to Carlisle, 11N to 81N to 78E to an exit something like Cedar Crest Blvd. (I'd recognize it if I saw it). Right off the exit, maybe a mile or two down the road. Every time I drive by on 78 I have to fight my car's natural instincts.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Paul,

I think we still have a couple of Lehigh members on the DG here who should be able to weigh in further if you want more info.  They may not be looking on this thread though, if you want more info on Lehigh just start a thread on it and I predict that you would get plenty of information.

[Paul Richards]

Turboe:

thanks, but I was just actually trying to find out if Lehigh was a "Pittsburgh" course or not.

[Paul Richards]

Can anyone answer "the Allegheny question" I raised above?

thanks.

[JohnV]

Alleghany has not made the top 100 on Golfweek's list.  As of last year, it was on the list of courses that they wanted more raters to see so it probably didn't have enough to qualify.  I don't know about Golf or Golf Digest, but I doubt it since the opportunities for making it are less on both of those lists.

[Paul Richards]

Is Allegheny old or new?

[JohnV]

According to the WPGA centennial book, Allegheny Country Club was founded in 1895 and moved to its currently location in 1902, making it one year older than Oakmont.

[Paul Richards]

John;

I guess this is my question.  Since Allegheny has never appeared on any publications list at any time, and has been around over a century, what all of a sudden makes it so special now?  Has there been some great renovation or restoration or what?  thanks for any comments.

[JohnV]

Paul,  I'm not the expert on this, perhaps Clark Whalen who is a member there and sometimes posts can fill us in on that one.

I believe that Gil Hanse has been hired to do a long-term plan.  Also, I think it might just have been ignored.  I didn't get to play it yet, but I did tour it last year and it looked wonderful.  I know that my boss who has seen them all still considers Oakmont, Fox Chapel and the Field Club the best 3 in Pittsburgh in that order.  Allegheny might be #4 in town.

[Paul Richards]

John:

How about (Old) Stonewall?  Is it close to any of the others?

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

Olde Stonewall is quite close to the downtown area if my memory serves and is a compelling Hurdzan / Fry design that clearly throws plenty of ups and downs (no pun intended) in your round. I'm sure an argument can be made that the abruptness of the back nine really takes away from the qualities of the course but I found Olde Stonewall to be quite good. Don't believe I'd have the course rated as high among public courses in Pennsy as GW indicated. For my money I'd go with Mystic Rock at Nemacolin for that honor.

One other thing -- I had the pleasure in playing the new Rees Jones layout called Totteridge this past summer (about 45 minutes east of town) and enjoyed the course. Have others played it and were there any comments? I don't see the course being in the top five in the immediate Pittsburgh area but it could contend for a top ten spot.

P.S. I'd love to play Laurel Valley when the place isn't dripping with all the H20 they put on it.

On the public side I really do like Quick Silver, but the layout does need a makeover. I was there last summer and the demands of the course are still noteworthy but the kind of detailing you see at many other courses is definitely long overdue. Many of the bunkers need to be reworked with new sand and some should be rebuilt. Still -- Quick Silver can make a good case that it's the best public in Pittsburgh provided the TLC previously stated is carried out. Incidentally, QS hosted a PGA Senior Tour stop for a number of years and you can see some "borrowed" elements of Oakmont (the church pew bunker at QS's 18th) as just one aspect worth noting.

[George Pazin]

Kinda depends on how you define close.

Not to be confused with Stonewall in eastern PA, Olde Stonewall is a Hurdzan Fry effort in Ellwood City, PA (most definitely western PA). It's about 45 minutes north of me, I'm about 20 minutes north of downtown, Oakmont/FC/PFC are probably 25 minutes east of downtown. You might actually be able to make it pretty quickly from the big 3 to OS due to a nearby interstate, but it's probably still close to 50-60 minutes.

I'll give you my 2 cents, but be forewarned that I'm probably the least traveled & experienced regular poster on the site, so take this for what it's worth.

Tee to green I did't feel like OS was anything special, particularly in light of the high greens fee (for western PA - $85 off season, I think $135 in). Like virtually all of the region, the terrain is pretty severe, but I didn't really get any great enjoyment from tee shots & approach shots. Approach shots are mostly from flat land & relatively flat stances - my completely uninformed guess is that they smoothed things out quite a bit.

Having said all that, I think the green complexes are among the better public ones I've played, particularly in western PA. Pretty decent movement in greens, including a few fallaway greens. My playing partners really struggled with putting the day we played. I thought it was really fun, once you got around the greens.

The course is proud of the use of the indiginous (sp?) stones - I didn't really care for them, though I don't find them quite the eyesore that many on this site likely would.

I was just about to say the front nine is pretty bland, but I remembered that we teed off 10 to start the round, so I guess it was the back that was more bland. There are back to back par 3s (I think maybe 14/15) that are less than stellar if you play the normal men's tees. Others have commented that these are much better from the tips. I wouldn't know. I'm  mediocre golfer & if I'm not playing with friends who automatically head for the tips, I try to play the tees suitable to me.

"Aesthetic" issues: I think carts are mandatory. The clubhouse is a faux castle that looks a little like something I could throw together by heading down to Home Depot. There are a handful of steel silhouette cutouts of various wildlife scattered around the site - maybe the weirdest thing I've ever seen on a golf course, as far as accoutrements go.

All in all, not a bad course, but I would definitely go to Quicksilver before I went back to OS. The greens probably aren't as good, but I enjoy the rest of the course more. It's also less than half the price.

If I were going to kick up the cash to go to OS, I'd probably head instead to Nemacolin Woodlands to play Mystic Rock, the only Pete Dye course I've played, 2 days after I got married, no less. I think it's way better than OS & in the same ball park, money wise. It's a bit further for me - OS is about 45 minutes north of me, whereas MR is about 90 minutes southeast.

All these questions have definitely got me fired up to get out on the ole golf course - tomorrow's supposed to hit 60!!! Woo Hoo!!! Time to lace up the gaiters & slop through the mud.

[Paul Richards]

George:

Since you were the one who pointed out the difference between Olde Stonewall and Stonewall, and I obviously confused them on my spreadsheets, thinking they HAD to be one and the same, could you help clear up this little bit of confusion?

Has the Stonewall you referred to ever made a Top 100 list?

Or is it Olde Stonewall that has been ranked #50 on GolfWeek's Modern list in 2003, #97 in Golf Magazine in 2001, and #17 in the state by Golf Digest in 1999?

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Matt,

I also enjoyed Totterridge last year and thought it is one of the best around that area.  I lived on that side of Pitt when I first was out of College and it is one of the best around the Eastern Suburbs.

I have played Laurel Valley when it is soft and overwatered (combination of man, and some God put down that day), and I have also played it when it was quite firm.  It is a wonderful track when it is playing firmer.  Just a spectacular setting.

I concurr on the comments of Olde Stonewall having some great holes and great green complexes.  However I just though the severness of some of the holes and the obtrusiveness of the huge (and I mean huge) hewn stones was a little over the top and keep it from being truely great.  

I thought Mystic Rock was spectacular and a great golf course all the way around.  It is in the middle of nowhere, but worth the drive.

I have never been a big Quicksilver fan, it is interesting to hear some of the positive comments on here.  Because I respect some of your opinions I may have to give it another look.  It has been many years, but I cannot remember too many redeming qualities.  When I played it (a few years after the Seniors left) the conditions were atrocious, and the fees were still sky high.  Someone told me that they have come back to reality a little over the years.

[Matt_Ward]

Turboe:

The issue for QS is really putting the time, attentoin and most of the $$$$$$$$$$ into the property. Many of the bunkers have disintegrated an dlook like homes for stray cats -- there's also the need for quality sand and many of the "cuts" need to be made to offset the fairway and rough areas.

QS has a wonderful piece of property but it seems from the 4-5 visits that I've ade to the facility in the last ten years or so that it's living in some sort oftime warp when the Senior Tour was there. The question is a simple one -- does management there come out of a coma and start to recognize what the course was years ago and return to that lofty standard. I'd love to see it because in my first two times to the ocurse Iwas very impressed -- the greens were moving quite nicely and there was enough juice for the short and long hitters to find quality golf at QS. We shall see.

Turboe -- regarding Laurel Valley -- wonderful Dick Wilson esign but from the three times I've played it the tee shots almost always plug because of the desire to overwater through man's hand.

George P:

I concur with you -- how does Glen Mills reap the top spot in Pennsy? No way -- not when Mystic Rock is in the area. There are some issues with the "fairness" of MR that have been raised from time to time but overall I'd vote for Mystic Rock claiming the top public spot in Pennsy. One last question -- are the folks on drugs at Olde Stonewall in having a $135 in-season rate or what?

One last question to the group -- have any of you played the Gary Player design Diamond Run? Comments?

[Tim_Weiman]

Paul Richards:

Don't worry about rankings. Stonewall is one of the classiest places in golf, an almost perfect, low key golf club. If I lived in the area I'd love to be a member there for both the club itself and the two golf courses (the latter is due to open this year, I believe).

Stonewall is a place I hope I have the chance to visit time and time again.

But, it doesn't belong in any discussion of golf in Pittsburgh.